Is there any benefit to maximizing absorb and minimizing defense on a sin tank?

I.e., all absorb augs, all robust mods, all bulwark enhancements. Lvl 72 gear.

There is not. All absorb and 0 defense is not optimal.

There is a benefit from following optimal stat distribution such as one of these

1 http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=616779

2 http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=645948

Which of course involves getting a lot more absorption than defense, but not like you suggest.

there will be less attacks defended so the damage profile is more stable

(more full damage or half damage less no damage)

your dark ward stacks will deplete faster -> Dark Bulwark will build faster

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For TFB NiM its actually very good to go with a maximum. of absorb and shield rating (~1300 abs/1070 shield) and with minimal defense rating as a sin tank. The reason is that the attacktypes tanks face in TFB are completely different to the ones they are facing in HM SV.

Some spreadsheets on the forum are assuming that 78% of the damage is m/r type (which defense rating is working on). That is just wrong. For TFB NiM dread guard fight for example its just about 28% m/r damage (+ 38% f/t i/e damage and 34% f/t e/k dmg out of combatlogs).

So, practically speaking defense rating is worthless for 72% of the dmg dealt to tanks on the Dread Guard NiM fight and therefore is inferior to any shield and absorbtion rating you can get as a sin tank.

For the other bosses in TFB NiM its about the same, although the difference in attacktypes is on a smaller scale (Withering Horror deals ~ 40% f/t e/k damage and about 58% m/r damage, so you want minimal defense rating there aswell).

For TFB NiM its actually very good to go with a maximum. of absorb and shield rating (~1300 abs/1070 shield) and with minimal defense rating as a sin tank. The reason is that the attacktypes tanks face in TFB are completely different to the ones they are facing in HM SV.

Some spreadsheets on the forum are assuming that 78% of the damage is m/r type (which defense rating is working on). That is just wrong. For TFB NiM dread guard fight for example its just about 28% m/r damage (+ 38% f/t i/e damage and 34% f/t e/k dmg out of combatlogs).

So, practically speaking defense rating is worthless for 72% of the dmg dealt to tanks on the Dread Guard NiM fight and therefore is inferior to any shield and absorbtion rating you can get as a sin tank.

For the other bosses in TFB NiM its about the same, although the difference in attacktypes is on a smaller scale (Withering Horror deals ~ 40% f/t e/k damage and about 58% m/r damage, so you want minimal defense rating there aswell).

That doesn't align with my combat logs. Additionally, you need to adjust damage to consider the pre-mitigation ratios, rather than post-mitigation (which is what Torparse gives you). M/r+k/e is the most heavily mitigated category, which means it has been reduced by the most relative to the other categories before it appears in your combat logs. I haven't pulled out all of the data from the bosses in NiM TfB yet, but my preliminary results indicate that it isn't as far off as you seem to think.

Even if it were, as long as there is some m/r attacks, defense will have a place. DRs are a real thing, and defense has a much better rate of return relative to shield + absorb.

@ KBN: That's plain wrong. You just want defense rating on your sin tank if the ratio between m/r and f/t attacks is over a certain level. Just do the maths with your spreadsheet and dont use 79% m/r attacks.

In current Dread Guard Fight NiM u dont want any defense rating at all. Even if i count in the post migation (that means then 22,8% I/E damage, 37,4% f/t e/k dmg and 39,7 % m/r damage) thers still more then a 100% variance to the spreadsheet formulas (79% m/r) ("as far off...")

If i for example take your Ratings {2400,{defense->522,shield->875,absorb->1002}} i get a migation of 0,422040 .

If i use minimal defense rating (70 from stim) with 1297 a / 1032 s i get 0,417696 (more then half a gear Level difference in migation) on the dg NiM fight.

Even if the parses i looked at are completely different to the average, it wont explain a ratio difference from 39,7% to 79%.

Edit: For Withering Horror you have more m/r attackdmg post migation (about 67,5%) but thats still less then the spreadsheets assume. So for this Boss you want about 400 defense rating then. But i think you should optimize your gear for dread guard fight.

@ KBN: That's plain wrong. You just want defense rating on your sin tank if the ratio between m/r and f/t attacks is over a certain level. Just do the maths with your spreadsheet and dont use 79% m/r attacks.

In current Dread Guard Fight NiM u dont want any defense rating at all. Even if i count in the post migation (that means then 22,8% I/E damage, 37,4% f/t e/k dmg and 39,7 % m/r damage) thers still more then a 100% variance to the spreadsheet formulas (79% m/r) ("as far off...")

If i for example take your Ratings {2400,{defense->522,shield->875,absorb->1002}} i get a migation of 0,422040 .

If i use minimal defense rating (70 from stim) with 1297 a / 1032 s i get 0,417696 (more then half a gear Level difference in migation) on the dg NiM fight.

Even if the parses i looked at are completely different to the average, it wont explain a ratio difference from 39,7% to 79%.

 

Edit: For Withering Horror you have more m/r attackdmg post migation (about 67,5%) but thats still less then the spreadsheets assume. So for this Boss you want about 400 defense rating then. But i think you should optimize your gear for dread guard fight.

At any non-zero ratio of m/r attacks, I can push the stat budget up arbitrarily high and get to a point where defense is extremely valuable.

I will do the processing on my combat logs in the near future. I would be very, very surprised if your assertions were accurate given that TfB HM aligns quite closely with S&V in terms of damage ratios (a little less m/r, but not much).

At any non-zero ratio of m/r attacks, I can push the stat budget up arbitrarily high and get to a point where defense is extremely valuable.

 

I will do the processing on my combat logs in the near future. I would be very, very surprised if your assertions were accurate given that TfB HM aligns quite closely with S&V in terms of damage ratios (a little less m/r, but not much).

Pushing up the stat Budget arbitrarily high is nonsense giving the current stat Budget (2,4 -2,6K) tanks are able to have.

Could you please tell me how you are assuming a 79% m/r on dread guard NiM/HM fight (which is currently the fight i would optimize tank stats for). The only m/r attacks on this fight are afaik Saber Strike, Voltaic Slash and Assault from Kel'sara (and Legionaires) and Sweeping Slash, Battering Assault and Pummel from Ciphas. These attacks make afaik post migation not much more then 41% of the total damage Tanks receive in this fight.

he isnt assuming damage weights based on a single fight. if somsoen wants to change their gear loadout for every fight, then, sure, they should take out some def for abs for f/t heavy fights. but if you want to perform well over the entire instance with the same set of stats, then you should find the average damage weights from all the fights and gear for that.

i will say that going with all absorb does reduce spikiness a little:

optimized 2600 with set amount of shield:

pool 2600

dps 4500

pre armor squish 0.500976152

total squish 0.30373018

pre heals/absorb dtps 1367

post heals dtps 1034.91

damage per HP 3.292395898

spike 0.054199547

full absorb build:

pool 2600

dps 4500

pre armor squish 0.511364122

total squish 0.309827721

pre heals/absorb dtps 1394

post heals dtps 1062.35

damage per HP 3.227600157

spike 0.053149725

so you end up taking around 30 more damage per second by going with all absorb in order to decrease spike by .001

if you assume 70% if force/tech, then you want all absorb. its not until m/r is 60% of k/e damage that defense becomes viable.

for tfb hm lvl 50 info, you still want around 400 defense rating, assuming 50% w/k 25% t/k and 25% t/i

@dipstik:

First Topic: Especially for TFB NiM tanks should focus their gear around certain bosses (Dread Guards) and not on the average dmg in the whole instance, as the whole instance is not on the same difficult level (in my opinion). When guilds wipe 100 times on dg and 1 time on withering horror, its probably better when the gear is itemized for the dread guard fight.

Second Topic: Completely away from the topic as all your assumptions with 0,001 reduced spikiness.... are made for 79% m/r attacks (which is an average number for SV HM). The variance of the attack types you see f.e. in tfb NiM is not in your later results, so i dont see any reason (when we have a 80% variance on the first formula) to use 10 numbers without variance for your "results".

Third Topic: Yes when i use your formula defense rating becomes viable when m/r is over 60% off all e/k dmg. Still Dread Guard fight has just about 50% m/r (of all e/k dmg), so you absolutly dont want any defense rating (atleast for sin tanks) for DG fight.

When guilds wipe 100 times on dg and 1 time on withering horror, its probably better when the gear is itemized for the dread guard fight.

DG isn't hard because of the damage. It's hard because of the enrage timer. Maximizing your mitigation against the DG isn't going to make you more likely to succeed against them because it's not the damage that the tanks take that causes those wipes. It's the fact that an absurd amount of DPS is required. You're conflating "wiping" with "wiping because the tank died/took too much damage". There is some overlap, but it's not *always* the same, nor is it even close in the situation you're referring to.

If you want to itemize yourself around a fight *as a tank*, itemize around Writhing Horror and/or Operative IX. They're the only major tank checks in TfB (TWH because it hits hard enough to actually *worry* tanks and Operative IX because it's got the highest spike damage of any boss in there). Everything else is a DPS or mechanic check, especially on NiM.

If you're wiping on a fight that *isn't* a tank check, tweaking your itemization isn't going to help in the least, unless you're tweaking your itemization to increase your *damage*. If *you* are surviving fine and the group is wiping thanks to hard enrages, it means that your *DPS* should be reevaluating how they do things, not the tank since the tank is, obviously, doing *their* job perfectly.

Make sure you understand what the fights check for before you go about trying to itemize specifically for them. DG isn't something that a tank should itemize themselves around. It's something the *DPS* should itemize themselves around.

For TFB NiM its actually very good to go with a maximum. of absorb and shield rating (~1300 abs/1070 shield) and with minimal defense rating as a sin tank. The reason is that the attacktypes tanks face in TFB are completely different to the ones they are facing in HM SV.

I've run similar math to this using KeyboardNinja's code (been meaning to write it up for this forum, but NIM DG exhaustion). For a fight that's more Force heavy than a 60/40 M/F split Sins want 0 defense rating, and for Powertechs anything more Force heavy than 58/42 gives a 0 desired defense rating. But, you're going to have 70 Defense on your stim, and probably another 300 or more that you just can't get rid of on your ear and implants. That pushes the M/F ratios up to around 65/35 for Sins and Powertechs to forego any defense rating on their mods, enhancements, and augments.

There has been a very good point made in this thread though, if you go into NIM DG with a HM S&V gearing build you will take quite a bit more damage.

DG isn't hard because of the damage. It's hard because of the enrage timer. Maximizing your mitigation against the DG isn't going to make you more likely to succeed against them because it's not the damage that the tanks take that causes those wipes. It's the fact that an absurd amount of DPS is required. You're conflating "wiping" with "wiping because the tank died/took too much damage". There is some overlap, but it's not *always* the same, nor is it even close in the situation you're referring to.

 

If you want to itemize yourself around a fight *as a tank*, itemize around Writhing Horror and/or Operative IX. They're the only major tank checks in TfB (TWH because it hits hard enough to actually *worry* tanks and Operative IX because it's got the highest spike damage of any boss in there). Everything else is a DPS or mechanic check, especially on NiM.

 

If you're wiping on a fight that *isn't* a tank check, tweaking your itemization isn't going to help in the least, unless you're tweaking your itemization to increase your *damage*. If *you* are surviving fine and the group is wiping thanks to hard enrages, it means that your *DPS* should be reevaluating how they do things, not the tank since the tank is, obviously, doing *their* job perfectly.

 

Make sure you understand what the fights check for before you go about trying to itemize specifically for them. DG isn't something that a tank should itemize themselves around. It's something the *DPS* should itemize themselves around.

DG is not just around dmg. I've seen way more wipes during the fight then because of any enrage timer (after nerf). Every Guild that killed DG, did kill the whole instance (afaik), so its the hardest boss in this Operation.

If a tank is not properly itemized (and itemized according to forum spreedsheets is about arcanian level for this boss) he's putting additional stress on the healers which hinders their dps, he's reducing his dmg-output (for sin tanks Lightning Reflexes, Discharge Uptime....).

If you say a Tank should optimise his gear for twh instead of DG you are assuming that healers have less problems with the Dread Guard fight healing then with the twh fight healing as healing the tanks is a large part of their job.

I've run similar math to this using KeyboardNinja's code (been meaning to write it up for this forum, but NIM DG exhaustion). For a fight that's more Force heavy than a 60/40 M/F split Sins want 0 defense rating, and for Powertechs anything more Force heavy than 58/42 gives a 0 desired defense rating. But, you're going to have 70 Defense on your stim, and probably another 300 or more that you just can't get rid of on your ear and implants. That pushes the M/F ratios up to around 65/35 for Sins and Powertechs to forego any defense rating on their mods, enhancements, and augments.

 

There has been a very good point made in this thread though, if you go into NIM DG with a HM S&V gearing build you will take quite a bit more damage.

Yes, i got the same numbers. You always have to have the Earpiece and the Stim i think. You can switch out the Veracity Implants for Underworld ones which is not that bad. Switching out the Fortunate Redoubt Relic is also not that bad as the ratio you are giving up defense rating for absorb rating is kinda okay for dg nim fight.

If you say a Tank should optimise his gear for twh instead of DG you are assuming that healers have less problems with the Dread Guard fight healing then with the twh fight healing as healing the tanks is a large part of their job.

The bigger problem on healing NiM DG is the raid damage, not the tank damage. A tank tweaking their stats to minimize incoming damage isn't really going to make the healers' job appreciably easier since they're only a portion of the raid.

Like I said, DG isn't a tank check so tweaking your stats isn't going to affect your success. It's a mechanic/DPS check.

The bigger problem on healing NiM DG is the raid damage, not the tank damage. A tank tweaking their stats to minimize incoming damage isn't really going to make the healers' job appreciably easier since they're only a portion of the raid.

 

Like I said, DG isn't a tank check so tweaking your stats isn't going to affect your success. It's a mechanic/DPS check.

Are you serious?! The "portion" is about 60% of the whole dmg a healer has to heal (out of combat logs).

Edit: When i take the ratio m/r to f/t in e/k i got following numbers for TFB NiM (i dont have a large amount of data for tfb NiM so thers a lot of variance in these results):

TWH: 0,662 DG: 0,516 Op9: 0,790 Kephess: 0,293 TFB: 0,824

Altogether thats 0,617 which would mean that sin tank should not have any defense rating except for stim and ears (more or less the data i have is too small to rly go into excact detail)

When i go for Kitru "idea" i get a 0,727 ratio (WTH +OP9) which would mean sth like veracity pieces + Fortunate Redoubt Relic but no mods/enhancements with defense rating for sin tanks.

Are you serious?! The "portion" is about 60% of the whole dmg a healer has to heal (out of combat logs).

And it's all comparatively low DtPS maintenance healing. Tanks will *always* take more damage than DPS because they're tanking the boss(es), but it doesn't mean that the healing *pressure* is always on the tank healing front. The very fact that 40% of total incoming DPS *doesn't* go to the tanks should be a pretty big indicator that it's *not* a fight where tank survivability matters all that much. Try looking at the *actual* tank intensive fights and look at the comparative healing amounts.

And it's all comparatively low DtPS maintenance healing. Tanks will *always* take more damage than DPS because they're tanking the boss(es), but it doesn't mean that the healing *pressure* is always on the tank healing front. The very fact that 40% of total incoming DPS *doesn't* go to the tanks should be a pretty big indicator that it's *not* a fight where tank survivability matters all that much. Try looking at the *actual* tank intensive fights and look at the comparative healing amounts.

I did look at the twh and at the dg fight combat logs. At twh it's about 1,8k dmg, at dg it's about 2k dmg, so healers have to actually heal the tanks more at dg NiM fight then on twh. Thers a simple reason for that:. DG fight is more difficult then the twh fight so you need to be optimised for the dg fight and not for a fight that is way easier.

1738 DTPS on Writhing Horror last night.

1840 DTPS on a 20% Kel'Sara enrage.

These fights are on my Powertech with just under 500 defense rating, so WH damage is inflated in order to reduce DG damage. Then consider that any log that stops before the first Force Leech has both myself and the sin cotank over 2000 DTPS. I can't come close to seeing how the Writhing Horror is the fight you need to gear for in the instance.

1738 DTPS on Writhing Horror last night.

 

1840 DTPS on a 20% Kel'Sara enrage.

Both of those are WH links.

Both of those are WH links.

Yes normally its more dmg, try this one (or just scroll down )

http://www.torparse.com/a/327990/43/0/Damage+Taken

I did look at the twh and at the dg fight combat logs. At twh it's about 1,8k dmg, at dg it's about 2k dmg, so healers have to actually heal the tanks more at dg NiM fight then on twh. Thers a simple reason for that:. DG fight is more difficult then the twh fight so you need to be optimised for the dg fight and not for a fight that is way easier.

Honestly, you're doing something wrong. I don't have a recent writhing horror parse, since I don't bother uploading it anymore. However, on DG, I take 1750 DPS. My cotank takes about 1850, due to the way that we script the tank swaps. That's pre self-heal, which is about 330 for each of us. Thus, we require roughly 1500 external HPS (allowing overheal fudge margin).

If you want to optimize for the DG fight, then you need to do two things. First, maximize your main stat. Higher DPS output makes the enrage easier and pushes the first phase faster (which makes it much easier to heal). Second, optimize for better cooldown timings in the third phase for when Voltaic Slash hits for 16k followed by a 13k Discharge. (note: VS is M/R). Those are the two things which cause issues for tanks in that fight. Mean mitigation is much less of an issue, and you're not going to make the fight appreciably easier by itemizing specifically for it.

As Kitru said, itemize for Operator IX, which is mostly M/R damage.

Both of those are WH links.

Well spotted. Fixed the post.

Honestly, you're doing something wrong. I don't have a recent writhing horror parse, since I don't bother uploading it anymore. However, on DG, I take 1750 DPS. My cotank takes about 1850, due to the way that we script the tank swaps. That's pre self-heal, which is about 330 for each of us. Thus, we require roughly 1500 external HPS (allowing overheal fudge margin).

 

If you want to optimize for the DG fight, then you need to do two things. First, maximize your main stat. Higher DPS output makes the enrage easier and pushes the first phase faster (which makes it much easier to heal). Second, optimize for better cooldown timings in the third phase for when Voltaic Slash hits for 16k followed by a 13k Discharge. (note: VS is M/R). Those are the two things which cause issues for tanks in that fight. Mean mitigation is much less of an issue, and you're not going to make the fight appreciably easier by itemizing specifically for it.

 

As Kitru said, itemize for Operator IX, which is mostly M/R damage.

I find it not funny that your are not telling anything about force scream which is the MAIN damage on third phase a tank gets when kel'sara attacks him(and its f/t e/k). The average damage a tank gets from a force scream is more then double as high as from a voltaic slash hit and you get more force scream hits on third phase then voltaic slash hits as kel'saras Standard Rotation at this point is dc/fc/vs/fc/dc. Don't try to spread misinformation.

Edit: I did find your twh parses on torparse you just took 1,55 k dmg there on average. So the Ratio from the parses is still the same for you, you are just a good tank

I find it not funny that your are not telling anything about force scream which is the MAIN damage on third phase a tank gets when kel'sara attacks him(and its f/t e/k). The average damage a tank gets from a force scream is more then double as high as from a voltaic slash hit and you get more force scream hits on third phase then voltaic slash hits as kel'saras Standard Rotation at this point is dc/fc/vs/fc/dc. Don't try to spread misinformation.

Scream hits for 17k if unshielded. That's as bad as Voltaic Slash. It does usually get used between VS and Discharge, which is my error, but it doesn't always come in that position. VS and Discharge are used a lot more over the fight and do significantly more aggregate damage. Given that itemizing for Scream steadiness (full shield loadout) results in taking dramatically more damage from VS (and increasing the likelyhood of getting an unmitigated hit) without significantly reducing the damage from Scream, I'll pass.