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Vanguard players it is time to stand up and be heard!

GostGajol

By GostGajol
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GostGajol

GostGajol

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Dear Vanguards I made a simliar post on the PT forum and I've been asked to post this here aswell as it concerns both classes. In this fight let us unite and let our voices be heard, lets send the message that we will not go quietly into the night!

 

My fellow Vanguards

 

Vanguards are getting screwed in the 2.0 patch unless people act

Question is, do Vanguards stand up for their right to fight??

I SAY HELL YES! ITS TIME TO BUMB THE THREADS!

 

Get to the test forums - read up on the following 4 posts!

 

 

 

VANGUARD PLAYERS WE NEED YOUR VOICE TO BE HEARD OR WE WILL ALL BE STUCK WITH A USELESS CLASS IN PATCH 2.0! - EVEN IF YOU HAVE NOTHING TO ADD GO BUMB THE THREAD TO THE TOP WE MUST BE HEARD!

 

/Gajol

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Grimoir

Grimoir

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Not that it'll do much good, but I'd like to echo the complaint in the thread and chime in on the consensus that these nerfs were, for the most part, unwarranted.

 

I have played Terminal Velocity(AP/Pyro Hybrid) going on 10 months now, and although its not exactly what elitists would call "competitive," it happens to be a very fun spec and much more entertaining than pure Pyro, at least in my opinion.

 

2.0 patch hits the PTS: Everyone starts playing TV. With the changes to the trees and the extra talent points, we're able to pick up Steely Resolve for an overall Aim increase, and Firebug/Assault Trooper for a massive DPS increase to the main focus of the hybrid: Railshot/High-Impact Bolt. After some testing, it was widely considered to be the absolute BEST DPS on the test realm, putting out significantly higher DPS than anything but Smash-monkeys and Sniper/Gunslingers.

 

Now fast-forward to the patch on the 14th: EA/BW guts(see what I did there?) Terminal Velocity. With the numbers they were putting out on the PTS, I can understand this to a certain degree. But honestly, how hard could it have been to just push Firebug further up in the tree to put TV closer to where it is on live? It isn't OP on live at all, so why not allow it to exist, but limit its players to being able to take either SR or Firebug/Assault Trooper? I really hate to see hybrids across the board being neutered like this because it truly limits the choices that players are able to make. Not much balancing has to be done if hybrids are always slightly below the full trees in capability. Trust your players and adjust things with a lighter touch on a case-to-case basis(I'm looking at you, hybrid Assassins >.>), rather than pulverizing anything existing outside of the norm with the nerf-bat.

 

So not only that, but they decided to wreck the AP/Tactics tree too. All that had to happen to shut down TV really, was to attach the CG/CT proc to HEGC/HEC. They absolutely could have stopped right there and things would've almost been balanced, but did they? Nope. They decided that the full AP/Tactics tree was doing too much damage, so they hit not only the already mediocre stats for the HE stance, but one of the main sources of damage for the tree by removing the crit damage on FB/IP, made it so CG/CT would proc more reliably but less often, and reduced crit chance even more. To top it off, there are no buffs whatsoever to speak of to make up for this atrocious assault on the already sub-par tree that is AP/Tactics.

 

Although I may just be repeating suggestions made by other players in this thread, among others, it can't hurt to reinforce the positive feedback and suggestions for keeping us all happy. Here is what I think should be done as an alternative to the nerfs introduced with the March 14th patch:

 

 

 

1a. Move Firebug up a tier so that it is un-reachable by Terminal Velocity or other hybrid specs. This change would keep the damage very close to what it is on live, with the exception of a 9% increase in Aim, if players deem that to be the most efficient way to spend their extra points.

*or*

1b. Attach the CG/CT proc to HEGC/HEC, but still allow ticks of RB/Gut to intiate the auto-crit mechanic. 25% has always been more than enough of a chance to have it up whenever your RS/HIB would be off of cool-down anyways.

 

2. Keep FB/IP in the surge talent for the middle tree. It is a large source of consistent and efficient damage for AP/Tactics players. It is also one of the only skills we can 'spam' given that RB/Gut should only be refreshed as it is about to fall off, Flame Sweep/Explosive Surge costs too much to be used all that often, and the rest of our abilities have decent cooldowns. Adding RB/Gut surge to the talent isn't a bad idea, but unless the tree is designed to focus on MULTIPLE DoT's, I don't agree with forcing us to rely on RB/Gut for than its utility.

 

3. Instead of removing the critical chance altogether from Power Loaders, make it TECH instead of RANGED.

 

4. If you absolutely must nerf HEGC/HEC, do this instead -> Change it to 7%(down from 8%) and then change the stance talent to give 2%(down from 3%), for a total of 9% increased internal/elemental damage.

 

5. For the sake of Pyros all over the world, hit CGC a liiiiiiittle lighter and try something like a 20% damage nerf to its proc in exchange for a 15% proc rate(up from 10%).

 

6. The TD changes are cool, but unless it gets a little more damage, I think it will still be a questionable choice in the tree. Give it enough 'oomph' that people won't have second thoughts about going all the way up to the 36-point talent.

 

*This is what I would do to make the AP tree better. It is simply my opinion, so tweak it at your own discretion*

 

7. Add a new effect to one of the talents, or even a brand new trait higher up in the tree, that adds the Trauma debuff(20% healing debuff to the target) to RB/Gut when it crits. This would allow for the middle tree to excel at killing targets that they would otherwise be unable to with their lack of burst. It would also make them excellent healer-killers, although other changes in addition to this would be needed to garner them a special spot on ranked teams.

 

8. With the removal of HO/HtL as a unique skill to AP/Tactics, I am not the only one who feels that a new ability to be added in its place to make the tree feel special again. Before I say any more, I am of the opinion that giving HO/HtL to both AC's is a fantastic idea, so I would be against reverting that decision. But yeah, AP/Tactics needs something else to make it a complete package again. A fantastic idea that I saw in another thread involved a knockdown ability with a 30s-45s CD so as to give them more control over their opponents and allow for better usage of PFT/PG. Another idea would be to give them some sort of root with burst or a bleed attached to it. In either case, flesh out the overall design of the AP/Tactics tree a little further and give us something to look forward to again; Make us need to play the full tree again. I definitely feel like the entire tree is centered around control, with all the CC and cooldown reduction on said-CC, so add another option that strengthens this ideal if it is what you intended for the class.

 

9. With the above change, tie the duration increase for HO/HtL to the tree-specific stance(for both ACs mind you) through an existing talent. Most notably, this would free up room in the tree for the 'unique-skill' above.

 

10. Immolate/Fire Pulse needs to be adjusted number-wise. It doesn't really contribute to the tree as a whole. It feels kinda out of place to me as it provides excellent burst(unmitigated as it is Elemental damage, right?), whereas the rest of the tree focuses on sustained damage. Give it some sort of added bonus when it hits a target that is effected by RB/Gut or maybe while HO/HtL is active. Heck, IMO, Immolate should put a DoT on the target like the updated TD does =P

 

 

 

 

Overall, these are my thoughts on the changes. It would be REALLY nice to get some Dev feedback on these recent changes so we know what their plan is for adjusting both of the PT/VG DPS specs. Honestly, I'm starting to think that these nerfs are a psychological test in that they will revert them later to make people think that AP/Tactics was just fine all along.

 

EDIT: Posting this in every relevant thread to get more attention from the Devs. Also a bump for you Gajol =)

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ubermouth

ubermouth

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So many people complain about class differences when they could ameliorate those differences by getting their skills up, gear up. With near equal gear and skill, you should be able to hang in any duel.

This great game comminity would benefit from an increase in skill in the player base more than utter control for equality.

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Zoom_VI

Zoom_VI

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So many people complain about class differences when they could ameliorate those differences by getting their skills up, gear up. With near equal gear and skill, you should be able to hang in any duel.

This great game comminity would benefit from an increase in skill in the player base more than utter control for equality.

 

As a min/maxed EWH shield spec vanguard I still lose every 1v1 with anything other than a juggernaut or PT tank. mechanics>skill

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planet_J

planet_J

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They decreased your inherent crit chance, but buffed the crit chance you gain from stats...see how they did that...take with one hand and give with the other...

 

That's "balance"

 

They are also buffing tracer missle/grav round

 

Is it crappy that TD/AP will now have some DoT? Sure...but Pyro/Assault was pretty OP in PVP anyway...it's not like you guys are losing out on much...in PVE your damage will still be fine, in PVP it levels the playing field a little.

 

Essentially...where they took something from you...they gave something back. You no longer have to stack your mechanic for additional damage (1 application is enough...that's a buff)...and additionally...that mechanic will also now provide 20% armor pen...which you didn't have before (that's a buff).

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AdamChattaway

AdamChattaway

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They decreased your inherent crit chance, but buffed the crit chance you gain from stats...see how they did that...take with one hand and give with the other...

 

That's "balance"

 

They are also buffing tracer missle/grav round

 

Is it crappy that TD/AP will now have some DoT? Sure...but Pyro/Assault was pretty OP in PVP anyway...it's not like you guys are losing out on much...in PVE your damage will still be fine, in PVP it levels the playing field a little.

 

Essentially...where they took something from you...they gave something back. You no longer have to stack your mechanic for additional damage (1 application is enough...that's a buff)...and additionally...that mechanic will also now provide 20% armor pen...which you didn't have before (that's a buff).

 

Smash juggers in pvp kill my higher lv vanguard before i can even react, leap, smash, push, leap, hit hit smash dead... literally before i can do anything, how is this fair? great i will now do 1% dmg instead of 2% dmg int he 0.5 seconds of life i have, why are they not nerfed?

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unluckyperson

unluckyperson

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As a min/maxed EWH shield spec vanguard I still lose every 1v1 with anything other than a juggernaut or PT tank. mechanics>skill

 

It is definitely mechanics. We rely on our shields as our greatest protection but in PvP that's garbage critical hits override shield activation so we never get shields up whenever we're critted.

 

The moment I stopped tanking in PvP was when I was in almost full WH with 3 EWH pieces (had a little over 18k hp) and a powertech stunned me (my break stun was on CD) and the guy critted for 6k, two times on some channel attack and then hit me with a couple hits afterwards and I was dead, in the span of about 4 seconds. Thinking back I'm almost positive this guy was running a Advanced Prototype/Tactics build (either full or hybrid) and that I was hit by the powertech equivalent of a fully charged pulse cannon.

 

Skill or not we just don't have the defenses to actually mitigate damage in PvP the way other tanks do.

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inderraj

inderraj

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People make me laugh, did no one see the damage output post on the PTS Forums. Our damage is just a little above a shadow, and lower than every other class, even scoundrels have higher/similar DPS.

 

Considering we dont give any armor debuffs etc, taking a vanguard to any OPS with be pointless as a DPS, we had a niche, which was high bursty DPS, great for those little fights where it was needed, but now thanks to PVP Q Q Q and constant ****** moaning by sub-par players, weve been nerfed to the ground, so there goes my PVE experience, when 2.0 hits, if the vanguard is still as **** as it was on the PTS server, I will un-sub. Simple as that.

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SalBasss

SalBasss

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Posted (edited)
People make me laugh, did no one see the damage output post on the PTS Forums. Our damage is just a little above a shadow, and lower than every other class, even scoundrels have higher/similar DPS.

 

Considering we dont give any armor debuffs etc, taking a vanguard to any OPS with be pointless as a DPS, we had a niche, which was high bursty DPS, great for those little fights where it was needed, but now thanks to PVP Q Q Q and constant ****** moaning by sub-par players, weve been nerfed to the ground, so there goes my PVE experience, when 2.0 hits, if the vanguard is still as **** as it was on the PTS server, I will un-sub. Simple as that.

 

Do you mean THIS post? It looks to me like vanguard is tied for the 2nd highest output amongst parses without 72 mainhand weapons.

 

Edit: I mean, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but help me understand here. I get the cries for help on Merc/Commando and for Assassins/Shadows, but the data I've seen suggests they are fine.

Edited by SalBasss
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ScytheEleven

ScytheEleven

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Do you mean THIS post? It looks to me like vanguard is tied for the 2nd highest output amongst parses without 72 mainhand weapons.

 

Edit: I mean, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but help me understand here. I get the cries for help on Merc/Commando and for Assassins/Shadows, but the data I've seen suggests they are fine.

 

No it's not. When using a 2.0 adrenal (which is a massive boost) and 2.0 augments, a Pyro/Assault or a Tactics/AP build will net you around 2550 DPS. Compare that to the other classes, it's about 100 DPS less when using the same. Only class we are higher than is Sin/Shadow. The Hybrid build for PT/VG's gets you close to 2740, but none of us are putting any faith in that Hybrid build since Hybrid's don't tend to last long.

 

For a comparison, a Scoundrel/Operative hit 2500 with 2.0 adrenal but no 2.0 augments (which give +36 main stat). PT/VG are now behind in DPS, only above Shadows/Sins.

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ScytheEleven

ScytheEleven

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The current live hybrid has been around for a long time...

 

To be fair, the current live hybrid does not hit nearly as hard as a full build for PVE purposes. When a hybrid is more powerful than a full (or near full) tree build, you can expect it to be nerfed i.e. the eng/lethality hybrid nerf and the obvious AP/Pyro hybrid.

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SalBasss

SalBasss

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To be fair, the current live hybrid does not hit nearly as hard as a full build for PVE purposes. When a hybrid is more powerful than a full (or near full) tree build, you can expect it to be nerfed i.e. the eng/lethality hybrid nerf and the obvious AP/Pyro hybrid.

 

That Sniper/GS biuld is still plenty strong (moreso than Engineering or Lethality alone) and has been for quite a while. The AP/Pyro hybrid you're talking is the one from when 2.0 first came out, I assume. Heh yeah, that one was laughable.

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GostGajol

GostGajol

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Fellow PT and VG's

 

On the subject of deleting our posts.

 

Deleting our posts is regardless of the outcome one of the most retarded decisions the devs could take. We wanted response to our valid claims and ideas, instead we got nothing and on top of that our work, complains and suggestions where just washed away.

 

On the subject of implementing our ideas.

 

So are they going to implement our ideas, reroll their own retardo-suggestions, well think about it, why would they choose not to communicate with us. Is it because of a) or b) ?

 

A) They choose not to give a feck and have their minds set on their own ideas. Test server was not intended as a platform of us giveing feedback, but as a testing ground to see how many people would download and how long they would spend on it, so it was marketing value and nothing to do with balance issues.

 

B) They choose to implement some of our changes, but instead of scoreing points with the community they figured, lets delete all those posts instead and not reply. It sends a much better message to our community to just delete their posts and act as if nothing happend than giveing the a response with something down the line like "Yes we get you, our community is important, we have taken some of your suggestions into account and we will work on the rollback. We trust your exited about the new changes, that has come out of your feedback... yada yada yada.... sincerly a less arrogant dev".

 

This is what i will bet on

 

Now sorry to say but my money is on option A they just dont give a feck about all of the chatter we made on the forums. The PT/VG and the forum posts where all for nothing, we are all going to feel their fecked up work when it goes live on the 15th of april.

 

I will hate beeing right on this forecast!!!

 

Best regards

 

Gajol

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