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BIOWARE stop messing with our PvE experience!!!!


Haggardbr

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I wonder what BW's devs have in their minds to nerf so drastically the range of two of the most used classes in the game, the Vanguards and the Powertechs...

 

I mean, both of them got 2 of the most powerful abilities nerfed in range... they've dropped from 30 meters to 10 meters!

 

I mean... WTH!!!??? :mad:

 

Assault Vangs and Pyro Ptechs already don't have either a 1 min cc nor a gap closer and now this!

 

In my opinion (and I believe that's not only me that thinks like me) those two classes ARE NOT melee range classes... of course they have close quarters abilities (just like snipers / gunslinger and these are not melee classes) but that doesn't mean we need to be less than 10 meters close to the enemy all the time! Most of our abilities have a 30 meter range (hammer shot, full auto, sitcky grenade and many others).

 

To me, those classes are more like MEDIUM RANGE classes (15 to 25 meters), a step before the real ranged ones (snipers / gunslingers - 25 to 35 meters) and the melee ones (force users 15 and less).

 

So why the hell we're getting out abilities range nerfed?

 

All because of the PvP cry babies I supposed, because they can't work with tactic to take down vangs / ptechs and so they cry and cry over and over again to nerf the classes!

 

So BW, why don't you give us the ability to use sabers or swords already!???

OR EVEN BETTER why don't you NERF THE WHOLE GAME ALREADY!!!!???

 

Some may say that this is all QQ'ing, but it's not... I'm complaining (not crying around) about unfair changes to our abilities, changes that will affect PvE more than PvP...

 

People need to put into their minds that this game is not about PvP only, there are people like me that prefer PvE a lot more!

 

If there's a class to be nerfed that's the marauders, if one of those guys jump on you, no matter the kind of gear you have or how strong you are, with only 3 or 4 hits, you're down!

 

Or even better... work to fix the damn resolver bar, or whatever it is to make everything fair for everybody, because I've seen a lot of complaining about this matter too!

 

 

 

So BW, PLEASE, for God's sake...

 

Stop messing with our PvE experience!!!!

 

Fullauto hits for bupkiss as a PT. The only time to use that in PvE as a DPS is if there's a huge circle under the target or something. PT is most-definitely a 4-10m class in pve.

 

That said, the ability to activate 2 or 3 abilities outside that range made a gap closer unnecessary. Now that PTs can't do that, they need a way to get inside 10m quicker and they need it badly. I know this is a PvE post, but this was most-blatantly obvious the second I stepped in the huttball arena.

 

So basically, IR either needs to go back to 30m or PTs need Jet Charge absent speccing tank. TD is probably fine the way it is.

Edited by Larry_Dallas
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Fullauto hits for bupkiss as a PT. The only time to use that in PvE as a DPS is if there's a huge circle under the target or something. PT is most-definitely a 4-10m class in pve.

 

That said, the ability to activate 2 or 3 abilities outside that range made a gap closer unnecessary. Now that PTs can't do that, they need a way to get inside 10m quicker and they need it badly. I know this is a PvE post, but this was most-blatantly obvious the second I stepped in the huttball arena.

 

So basically, IR either needs to go back to 30m or PTs need Jet Charge absent speccing tank. TD is probably fine the way it is.

 

It pratically narrows down to what Kamikazekommando said above (#49) that the gap from 30 to 10 meters will considerably reduce our DPS since hammer shot (troopers) won't do that much damage that we're used to do before where we could IR + AP + HIB then spam HS.

 

If they won't change it back to what it was, then "Storm" (trooper) and "Jet Charge" (BHs) really need to be changed to a base ability other than a skill one from the tanking tree.

Edited by Haggardbr
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I can't believe no one has brought this up yet...

 

Hate to break it to you, but even before the nerfs, VG/PT is a melee class. If you're not in melee ranged as an assault VG you're not doing it wrong.

 

These changes do not negatively affect PvE DPS at all. You should be in melee range as a VG/PT.

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Umm, that's precisely what happened: they changed every hard stun's range to 10m (those that previously had a 30m range, of course; Dirty Kick is still a melee stun).

 

Yep. And honestly, it took about 10 mintues to adjust play style to deal with it in PvE, on multiple class types that I play.

 

People get so rigid in their game play. It's an MMO, class skills change over time in MMOs. There are a number of factors that hav to be balanced all at the same time. There is no optimal solution really.

Edited by Andryah
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In all these quick examples, you were doing more DPS in 1.3 than you are now in 1.4. There's not much you can do to regain that lost DPS either, it's just a fact. Is it a lot of DPS lost? Sometimes hardly anything, other times it is much more noticeable. The other melee classes/specs hardly got hit this way, it's Vanguard Assault specifically that got changed in a pretty substantial way.

 

TL;DR: With 1.4 the Vanguard Assault play style has been dramatically changed and our DPS in both PVE and PVP has been reduced.

 

That's good. PT's were OP in the DPS department. The fact that you could do maybe 30% (maybe more?) dps from ranged during specific mechanics where you couldn't be in melee on the boss isn't fair when people like marauders who don't have 30m range abilities literally had to sit there and do nothing, thus doing 0% damage during those points. I'm all for PT's doing their 1.3 damage if Marauders are the kings of DPS when they can stay connected to the boss the whole fight. Sadly, as you pointed out in your numerous examples, they can't and even if they could, PT's are still beating them. That makes 0 sense.

Edited by Lostpenguins
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Ok, you all convinced me... I need to stay in melee range.

 

Now I want my light saber / vibrosword to stay in that range.

 

Oh... I want the knife abilities that Operatives have as well.

 

 

 

There... now we can stay in melee range. :rolleyes:

 

Yes, it seems silly that you're ranged attacks are like point-blank abilities when you're guns and such. But that's not the point. The point is your essentially a melee-based class. If you want to play ranged and do the absurd dps you're doing then I would like to know how you balance that with a pure melee class that is the Marauder?

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Yes, it seems silly that you're ranged attacks are like point-blank abilities when you're guns and such. But that's not the point. The point is your essentially a melee-based class. If you want to play ranged and do the absurd dps you're doing then I would like to know how you balance that with a pure melee class that is the Marauder?

 

I would like to know that too...

 

But one thing I know is... as a trooper, if a marauder jump on me (even with gear that's worst than mine) with 3 or 4 hits i'll go down, because they have lots of defensive things and the leap as a gap closer.

 

Ok we have the harpoon, but that's one in around 45 sec ~ 1 min and it can jeopardize the attack that a fellow force user may be doing against another melee enemy because you wouldn't be getting close to the enemy (you >>> to >>> enemy) but instead you would be "taking" it away from your ally and then finishing his strike to the enemy.

 

To soften this problem with gap, I do agree that if those abilities keep nerfed in range we need Storm (Jet Charge) to close the gap.

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That's good. PT's were OP in the DPS department. The fact that you could do maybe 30% (maybe more?) dps from ranged during specific mechanics where you couldn't be in melee on the boss isn't fair when people like marauders who don't have 30m range abilities literally had to sit there and do nothing, thus doing 0% damage during those points. I'm all for PT's doing their 1.3 damage if Marauders are the kings of DPS when they can stay connected to the boss the whole fight. Sadly, as you pointed out in your numerous examples, they can't and even if they could, PT's are still beating them. That makes 0 sense.

 

I agree with you, the other melee classes/specs do get hosed in those circumstances worse and I have a lot of sympathy for that. However, that's where gap closers come in (except for Smugs/Agents - but they still have a decent ability or two that can still be used >10m outside their default shot AFAIK) and arguably harder hitting melee abilities used to work it all out in the end.

 

But anyway all I'm mainly saying here is two things, agreeing with the OP, the Vanguard Assault class has:

(1) been nerfed in DPS for both PVP and PVE

(2) had their play style changed quite a bit, being more noticeable the more mobile the fight is (especially in PVP)

 

This is a counter all those who are trying to argue that the change is mostly meaningless in PVE, that we should do the same DPS in 1.4 as we did in 1.3, and that the range nerf doesn't change the way we play, as these statements couldn't be further from the truth.

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I'm of mixed feelings about the changes. I do agree that pt's needed some sort of nerf in particular for pvp, but thought they were performing pretty much spot on for pve (yes, I do play one who is nearly min/maxed). The reason I say they were correct for pve is, although they do lots of damage (somewhere on par with a marauder and sniper although I'm not sure of the exact metrics) they have more difficult resource management as their primary method for managing resources is the on-proc free rail shot which can be victim to unlucky rng. If heat got too high early in a boss fight, you end up spamming rapid shot until it reaches lower levels if vent eat is on cd, dropping their dps. They lack the mobility, party buffs, and defensive cool downs of a marauder.

 

Personally, I thought simply lowering the range on TD/AP (and keeping the shared cd) would have been sufficient for fixing pt/vanguards. This would limit the ranged opening burst, but still provide the ranged opener to proc rail shot, the only other mobile ranged skill apart from rapid shot. While removing the shared cool down with electro dart does help alleviate some of the issues the changes present, the playstyle did feel clunkier when I played today. Even doing end of torvix today, the elite enemies (forget what they're called) we're constantly knocking me back out of 10m range, causing dps loss. Bosses with large knockbacks like annihilation droid can nearly halt pt dps for extended periods. For pvp ranged and kiting classes like Sorc and sniper seem like a direct coubter to these classes with roots stuns and escapes.

 

For pve the changes are definitely workable and I doubt or dps will be substantially hurt, but for pvp I agree this may need to be looked at more.

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I would like to know that too...

 

But one thing I know is... as a trooper, if a marauder jump on me (even with gear that's worst than mine) with 3 or 4 hits i'll go down, because they have lots of defensive things and the leap as a gap closer.

 

Ok we have the harpoon, but that's one in around 45 sec ~ 1 min and it can jeopardize the attack that a fellow force user may be doing against another melee enemy because you wouldn't be getting close to the enemy (you >>> to >>> enemy) but instead you would be "taking" it away from your ally and then finishing his strike to the enemy.

 

To soften this problem with gap, I do agree that if those abilities keep nerfed in range we need Storm (Jet Charge) to close the gap.

 

I'm not as concerned about the PvP aspect. In 3 or 4 hits you will definitely not go down with equally geared toons, trust me, I know. It takes more than that for any 1v1. However, in the PvP aspect in a 1v1 PT's make up for their lack of defensive cd's by walking around in Heavy Armor and having insane burst damage.

 

But my concern is more to do with PvE, and the fact that PT's have the highest dps when staying connected to a boss and then having a decent % of damage at range isn't fair at all. In fact, it's still not fair, tbh.

 

At Melee: PT DPS > Marauder DPS

At Ranged: PT DPS > Marauder DPS

At AoE: PT DPS > Marauder DPS

 

Number of Roles each class can fill in an operation: PT (2) > Marauder (1)

 

Lolwhat?

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I agree with you, the other melee classes/specs do get hosed in those circumstances worse and I have a lot of sympathy for that. However, that's where gap closers come in (except for Smugs/Agents - but they still have a decent ability or two that can still be used >10m outside their default shot AFAIK) and arguably harder hitting melee abilities used to work it all out in the end.

 

I agree that gap closers are great for those periods where you get disconnected and then have to reconnect with a boss. But a significant more about of dps loss occurs not during the time you're running back to a boss, it's happening when you're stuck at ranged for whatever reason (i.e. EC Tanks underneath the shields or stuck in the colored circle during Operator IX) and Marauders do 0 DPS to whatever a PT's dps is at 15+ meters.

 

That's what irks me.

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The point of the nerf was to reduce Pyro/Assault range and DPS. Before this nerf they were arguably the best DPS to have. In PVP they were unbalanced due to their range. You couldnt do max dps at range but you could definitely bring the pain, and that had to go.

 

Also the pyro tree made AP totally worthless in PVE prenerf. Now theyre on a closer balance.

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You guys wanna know somthing interesting?

 

They only nerfed the range for Incendiary round and assault plastique for vanguards... I just checked my commando here and they still have the 30 meters range.

 

If only commandos didn't use (or were stronger) with assault cannons...

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You guys wanna know somthing interesting?

 

They only nerfed the range for Incendiary round and assault plastique for vanguards... I just checked my commando here and they still have the 30 meters range.

 

If only commandos didn't use (or were stronger) with assault cannons...

 

Yup, they didn't touch assault commandos, just vanguards. It is interesting that the same abilities have different ranges for the two ACs. I used to run an assault commando in PVE/PVP for quite a while then switched to vanguard due to the better synergies with the assault tree. However, since we're effecitvely now forced to always be within the 10m range, I'm going to have to take a serious look at the tactics tree, as much as I don't want to. The increased movement speed and pseudo-gap closer with the 30% boost for 8secs makes it perhaps worthy of a good look. Granted my simulations show a DPS loss with the switch, the utilities might actually make it effectively better in the new 1.4 world.

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Bioware, pleae stop nerfing an overpowered class!

 

To add a contructive comment, powertechs will probably get a gap closer to alleviate your pain soon enough as the devs have said they envisage powertechs as a melee class now. This will probably involve a nerf to the burst of powertechs due to their increased mobilkity. The powertechs in my guild aren't that worried about it as their dps is so high they don't need to bother with ranged attacks. If your dps is crucial for transition phases (if a few powertech ranged attacks stand between success and a wipe your dps members need more work), get a sorc to pull you to the boss.

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Yup, they didn't touch assault commandos, just vanguards. It is interesting that the same abilities have different ranges for the two ACs. I used to run an assault commando in PVE/PVP for quite a while then switched to vanguard due to the better synergies with the assault tree. However, since we're effecitvely now forced to always be within the 10m range, I'm going to have to take a serious look at the tactics tree, as much as I don't want to. The increased movement speed and pseudo-gap closer with the 30% boost for 8secs makes it perhaps worthy of a good look. Granted my simulations show a DPS loss with the switch, the utilities might actually make it effectively better in the new 1.4 world.

 

Well... I just shelved my vanguard and went back to my commando, switching it from combat medic and working the gunnery tree with a blaster rifle instead of a cannon.

 

At least now I can stay far from enemies enough to stay alive as much as possible.

 

Still... I'm really upset with these changes. :(

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You guys wanna know somthing interesting?

 

They only nerfed the range for Incendiary round and assault plastique for vanguards... I just checked my commando here and they still have the 30 meters range.

 

If only commandos didn't use (or were stronger) with assault cannons...

It's almost like commandos are a fully ranged class and vanguards aren't, or something.

 

Crazy, really.

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It changes the way you play... deal with it.

 

Ask those Mercs who got smashed back in 1.2 because of PvP.

 

It happens. Your range has changed. That's not that big of a deal, it just means adjusting to the difference and moving on... I play a PvE vanguard. It's NOT THAT BAD.

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