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(Developers check it pls.) important discussion about the situation of Jedi guardians


KomutanC

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Alright, before we start, please be aware that the questions I want to get answers here do not belong only to me, but belong to thousands of people who love the "Jedi Guardian" class and pity its current situation in PvP matches. Therefore, I kindly ask and recommend you to read everything I'm going to talk about in this discussion one by one.

 

First of all, I want to explain why Jedi Guardian/Sith Juggernaut class is so weak in PvP. Well, the main reason lies in its design. The defense of this class is based on health restoration, which can actually seem strong in the first look, and I must say that it is pretty handy in PvE. However, things are not so simple in PvP ladies and gentlemen. Unlike flashpoints, enemies in warzones are quite smart since they are players as well :) :) :). Therefore, they usually choose targets who are likely to go down fast. Jedi Guardian class is NUMBER ONE in the list of classes that become targets in PvP. Here is why:

 

It takes around 10 to 15 seconds for two DPS players to get a Jedi Guardian below 30% health. After that point, Jedi Guardian uses its biggest defensive ability which is "Focused Defense" to max out his health points. Then, the fight continues around for another 10 to 15 seconds and Jedi Guardian sees that his health is below 30% again and he also sees that he needs to wait for 100 more seconds to use its "Focused Defense" ability. Result: fight takes around 25-30 seconds and Guardian dies.

Things are even worse in Ranked Arenas. People in ranked warzones are usually experienced players who know how to damage a target. In a 4v4 DPS match, the situation of Jedi Guardians is just desperate. Even with a guard on them, people still focus the guardian because they know that after wasting its "Focused Defense", a Jedi Guardian is completely defenseless. That is why in 4v4 ranked arenas, the average combat time of a Jedi Guardian DPS does not exceed 15 seconds.

 

I felt compelled to explain the whole situation one by one because I just don't think BioWare (employees) has the SLIGHTEST idea about how the situation is in the arenas. Here is a conclusion if you don't want to read everything written above: Defense of Jedi Guardians are based on health restore but when the damage they take is massive, they just melt like ice on lava since restoring health won't have any defensive effect anymore.

 

Even with all that disadvantage, we are not completely desperate. When BioWare announced that there were going to be new tactical items in SWTOR 6.0, two tacticals drew my attention: "The Grid Teeth" and "Embrace The Pain" tacticals. As I already said a few times, defense of Jedi Guardians is based on health restore and therefore these tacticals seemed like the best game-balancing item for Jedi Guardians. Unfortunately, I don't know why but Bioware suddenly decided not to add these tacticals to the game when "Onslaught" expansion came out. Personally, I am just disgruntled about our most important tacticals being locked behind ridiculous RNG on Kai Zykken. Every weekend he rolls an invisible dice on what his next inventory will be and people are just desperately watching it. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Therefore, to put an end to this deadlock, I want a Bioware employee to clarify this situation by answering my questions below if it is possible:

 

 

  • Are you even considering bringing those tacticals to the game?

 

 

  • If you are willing to bring them to the game, can you please tell me when is this going to happen? (they are needed ASAP for PvP)

 

 

  • Are you considering to take people's complaints about RNG serious?

 

 

  • Are you considering to revive Team Ranked warzones which you killed? (so that guardians can at least enjoy some ranked matches)

 

 

  • Are you considering to bring PvP gear back? (which at least could be used to balance the classes in PvP a little)

 

Thank you all for your time, and please make sure that you comment below your thoughts as well about this situation. :rak_03: :rak_03: :rak_03:

Edited by KomutanC
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Alright, before we start, please be aware that the questions I want to get answers here do not belong only to me, but belong to thousands of people who love the "Jedi Guardian" class and pity its current situation in PvP matches.:

 

I hope they add these tacticals for you soon.

 

But thousands of guardian pvpers? On my server the ratio of GSF and PVP matches is almost the same - both pretty low. Sorry for my nitpicking :)

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Honestly, this is just another result of the power creep in the game.

 

It's not just DPS Jugs that are affected. Healers are kind of weak as well atm. This is because damage is through the roof. Guardian/jugg defensives as you point out are a second life line to the jugg. This gives them time to deal extra damage and take out the opponent. But, in a world where damage is out of control, it just doesn't buy enough time.

Any sort of immunity or 99% or dodge cooldown is therefore highly powerful in this meta. Kiting is now super powerful as well for the same reason, wich is why sorc healers are so strong atm. They can run away for days (but their healing just like the others is not enough to keep people alive).

That is why operatives are so strong atm as well.

 

I have said this since like week 2 of this expansion. Amps are out of control. They should be nerfed by about 50% in power. Same for tacticals and set bonuses. That might restore balance.

 

It's funny cause one of the complaints in 5.9 pvp is that people melted way too fast. Well 6.0 laughs at 5.9 cause now not even healers can save you. It's all about damage.

 

Umm, thousands? There aren't thousands of people pvping these days, much less thousands of Guardians doing it. Oh, you said "love and pity". Still think "thousands" is a bit of a stretch.

 

In warzones there are. Dunno about ranked, cause for sure not many queue for that for obvious reasons.

 

Dear devs:

 

I like my Guardian the way it is. Please don't screw it up trying to "balance" things for PvP. 🙄

 

What exactly are you afraid of? Better defensives?

 

Actually, a good bandaid fix for this is to actually let all jug/guardian specs to have access to tank 40% damage reduction DCD or give a damage reduction component to enure for dps specs. Does that affect you in any negative way?

Edited by Nemmar
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Did you actually read the OP? He's complaining that a Guardian can't come out on top of a 1v2 scenario. That's ridiculous. He also claims that Focused Defense is their only defensive tool. Completely ignoring Saber Ward, Saber Reflect and Enure.

 

This is a known issue. You can find another thread about it on the PvP forum. Guardians/Juggernauts are focused first cause of this meta. They don't have an escape and they need to be in melee to deal damage. Saber ward is ok, but it's not amazing and has a long Cooldown. In arenas it's all about focusing and immunities and exits are essential. Guardians don't have them so they get focused (maybe the charge to a friendly, but once they don't have defensive's they are an easy kill even if they temporarily escape cause heals can't keep up with the damage as well).

 

AKA i am very well aware that the problem is the out of control damage. I actually wonder if you read my post. I pointed it out. The problem is guardians/Juggs are more adversely affected by this than other classes, wich for the most part all have an exit or immunities on low cooldowns.

 

But it is a problem powertechs/vanguard had for a long time. The difference here is that atm, they are part of the problem cause they deal insane damage. Not something that guardians/jjuggs have atm.

 

So, i'd say either nerf the damage across the board (best solution overall)or buff guardian/jugg defensives (bandaid).

 

Btw i do play 2 toons of this class as well, so i know they are not hopeless well played, but in arena they will easily crack under pressure cause of the issues i mentioned. In warzones, they are fine, but in arena they are a liability. But the same can be said for healers atm. So, it's a bigger issue than this.

 

With that said... *disclaimer* there is a crazy tactical that will fix this issue as it gives ED a 30 second cooldown, but it's on kai zaiken random vendor. Then that will be insanely overpowered... Balance is kind of bad atm.

Edited by Nemmar
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Last time I PvPed, it was clear that the number one "everyone jump on this one" target was Commando / Merc.

 

If you play regs, you will see the merc tactic because people don’t understand properly.

If you play ranked, you will see people focus Jugg/guardian 9/10 times unless they know a specific player is weak.

 

The OPs assessment is correct when it comes to Juggs in ranked. But when it comes to regs, especially 8v8, Juggs are good enough.

 

The issue as described can be fixed by adding an anti ficus mechanic to the Jugg DCD line up.

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Did you actually read the OP? He's complaining that a Guardian can't come out on top of a 1v2 scenario. That's ridiculous. He also claims that Focused Defense is their only defensive tool. Completely ignoring Saber Ward, Saber Reflect and Enure.

 

Let me ask, do you play ranked?

 

And did the Op suggest the Jugg should win a 1v2 or 1v4 fight? No, they didn’t. Nobody expects any class to do that. The issue is being blown up in 15-20 seconds. Every other class, except maybe a PT can last much longer than that.

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Dps juggs are so fun to focus, ED actually adds to your dps and with another person you can easily burst right through it without them healing to full at all.

 

It creates a really nice positive feedback loop. There's no downside at all to attacking a jugg as a group.

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Dear devs:

 

I like my Guardian the way it is. Please don't screw it up trying to "balance" things for PvP. 🙄

 

Are you serious? How would and DCD buff or tactical affect your pve play? Or is this your usual troll attempt when people have a serious issue? If so, it’s one of the weakest I’ve seen 1/10

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So, tell me, how long should a Guardian be able to survive when being focused by 2 dps? Long enough to kill 1 or both of them? I'm curious.

 

Trixxie already answered but since you asked me i'll restate it. Its not about 1vX. It's about having a reliable defensive that can save you under pressure. That means when you are being focused.

Examples of such abilities are vanishes that operatives, assassins and marauders have, or imunities like mercs, sorcs have. Abilities that throw your enemies off for a bit.

 

In simple terms, they need an "oh s**t" button. That is enraged defense typically. But under this meta, with how big damage is the "oh s**t" button doesnt work. It needs to be better.

As to why this one and not saber ward, as i told you the cooldown.

Edited by Nemmar
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Trixxie already answered but since you asked me i'll restate it. Its not about 1vX. It's about having a reliable defensive that can save you under pressure. That means when you are being focused.

Examples of such abilities are vanishes that operatives, assassins and marauders have, or imunities like mercs, sorcs have. Abilities that throw your enemies off for a bit.

 

In simple terms, they need an "oh s**t" button. That is enraged defense typically. But under this meta, with how big damage is the "oh s**t" button doesnt work. It needs to be better.

As to why this one and not saber ward, as i told you the cooldown.

 

If it's not about 1vX then why did you say:

 

"It takes around 10 to 15 seconds for two DPS players to get a Jedi Guardian below 30% health. After that point, Jedi Guardian uses its biggest defensive ability which is "Focused Defense" to max out his health points."

 

There's always going to be a Priority Focus Target. Buff Guardians and it will just shift to the next in line. I'm fine with the devs giving Guardians a vanish like my Shadow, as long as my Shadow gets a Focused Defense.:p

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I think I'm missing something.

 

Has no-one mentioned Saber Reflect yet?

 

Thats an anti-focus ability. Only downside is AoE gets through. But come on, you essentially stop taking damage except for minor AoE tickles for the duration. And everyone else takes damage when they hit you. Thats totally an anti-focus ability.

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Are you serious? How would and DCD buff or tactical affect your pve play? Or is this your usual troll attempt when people have a serious issue? If so, it’s one of the weakest I’ve seen 1/10

 

Trixie, much respect, but I understand what he means. Those of us who play PVE-only have seen our toons devastated so many times by nerfs which were implemented in an attempt to balance PVP, and now we cringe at any such mention, thinking "BOHICA".

 

Note how, earlier in this thread, a poster said that Healer Sorcs are powerful now. She/he meant in PVP, and that may be so in the PVP context, but in PVE they are widely considered to be the weakest of the healers ATM. And I fear Sage/Sorc are about to be brutally *******ed with the splintery nerfstick.

 

Some day, (over the rainbow), an MMO will find a way to avoid this. But until then, I wonder if PVE and PVP players even belong in the same game with one another

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Some day, (over the rainbow), an MMO will find a way to avoid this.

It has been done in the past. The main trick is to have PvP and PvE versions of abilities. The PvP versions can be adjusted to balance PvP with no effect whatsoever on PvE, and vice versa.

 

Examples: both Guild Warses have this, although they *also* have a 99%(1) clear division between PvP and PvE contexts. SWTOR has a number of very fuzzy boundary cases which make it hard.

 

(1) 99% because of a jolly thing in GW1 called Minion Apocalypse, an effect that's supposed to apply in PvP battles of all sorts, but *also* applies in the PvP staging areas where players cannot fight. In all areas, if a player is banned while he is playing, the evil former god of Death, Dhuum, rises out of the ground and kills the offending player's character. See

for a taste of the results when Minion Apocalypse is active. (Note that the footage was shot in one of these staging areas where the player characters you see *cannot*fight*back* but can be killed by the undead minions, which spawns a new minion...) PvE areas are not affected by this.
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Haha, I have seen a few funnies like that! In Anarchy Online, there was this guide hologram that was supposed to just explain things for some obscure quest. But if you summoned it in the Basic Shop, it would go berserk and run around one-shotting all the n00bs. It was hysterical :)
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Trixie, much respect, but I understand what he means. Those of us who play PVE-only have seen our toons devastated so many times by nerfs which were implemented in an attempt to balance PVP, and now we cringe at any such mention, thinking "BOHICA".

 

Note how, earlier in this thread, a poster said that Healer Sorcs are powerful now. She/he meant in PVP, and that may be so in the PVP context, but in PVE they are widely considered to be the weakest of the healers ATM. And I fear Sage/Sorc are about to be brutally *******ed with the splintery nerfstick.

 

Some day, (over the rainbow), an MMO will find a way to avoid this. But until then, I wonder if PVE and PVP players even belong in the same game with one another

 

Nerf? The OP is asking for a buff.

 

I've tanked as a dps MM fps to get my gear for the lolz since PvE is THAT easy. Theres a reason only PvPers ever get the title "The Expert <insert class here>" from bioware. Pve is super easy, relaxing and a lot of fun. But it definitely isn't hard enough to ever remotely matter with minute tweaks. Especially of a defensive nature.

 

Top NiM pvers generally pvp but top pvpers can easily also do NiM. I have played "hard mode" ops with 4 people instead of 8. And for so called 16 man ops, with 8 instead of 16.

 

 

Defensives only matter in pvp. Pve is a joke defensives wise, as I said, I've easily face tanked ops and fps MM with a dps spec and dps defensives only. So nerfs or buffs to defensives do not affect pve in the slightest.

Edited by RACATW
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I think I'm missing something.

 

Has no-one mentioned Saber Reflect yet?

 

Thats an anti-focus ability. Only downside is AoE gets through. But come on, you essentially stop taking damage except for minor AoE tickles for the duration. And everyone else takes damage when they hit you. Thats totally an anti-focus ability.

 

Unless I've missed something for the last 6 or 7 years, guardian reflect (unlike merc reflect) only works on single target direct force, ranged, and tech attacks (per the tooltip). Melee damage is not reflected. This is different from, for example, merc reflect which works on ALL direct, single target damage and lasts a second longer, assuming the guardian takes the utility extending saber reflect to 5s, twice as long if he doesn't (I personally consider it a mandatory utility, so always take it, but I'm not everyone obviously).

 

So no, there is still damage that gets through thats not just AoE. This was also the reason behind my suggestion from a long time ago that they simply add melee to the types of damage reflected. Mercs reflect did wonders for them, after all.

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Let me ask, do you play ranked?

 

And did the Op suggest the Jugg should win a 1v2 or 1v4 fight? No, they didn’t. Nobody expects any class to do that. The issue is being blown up in 15-20 seconds. Every other class, except maybe a PT can last much longer than that.

 

 

 

You can leave sorc out of that bunch rly yeah we live for aslong as the bubble is up but we dont rly take part in the fight anymore from tht point onwards unles everyone in that game is a potato there is a reasons sorcs dont live That mutch longer then a jugg XD both classes need there defensive toolkits changed or be completly rebalanced in order to compete with the likes of operative sin sniper

 

+ taking Imortal into arena ranked is almost unfair atm extremly potent spec if played correctly sadly hats 1/3 thats worth using so the same as sorc while with most of the other class i actuly play you tank take every spec and atleast be decent unlike these 2 classes

Edited by timovdt
incomplete bit of spelling errors :p
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If it's not about 1vX then why did you say:

 

"It takes around 10 to 15 seconds for two DPS players to get a Jedi Guardian below 30% health. After that point, Jedi Guardian uses its biggest defensive ability which is "Focused Defense" to max out his health points."

 

There's always going to be a Priority Focus Target. Buff Guardians and it will just shift to the next in line. I'm fine with the devs giving Guardians a vanish like my Shadow, as long as my Shadow gets a Focused Defense.:p

 

You have me confused with the OP. I did not say that.

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You have me confused with the OP. I did not say that.

 

You're right, my bad. Hard to keep track of each person who has their own different opinion. You guys need to get together and consolidate your facts. OP uses a 1v2 as his example, you say it's not about that. OP says Guardian get focused down to 30% health in 25-30 seconds, Triss says they get blown up in 15-20 seconds.

 

Simple fact is pvp can't be perfectly balanced, it'll never happen. And, honestly, with the new tacticals and set bonuses, I seriously doubt that the devs care at all about pvp.

 

I do agree that it's stupid having a game changing tactical be a random proc on a vendor. So, no one has it, and then, someday, when it shows up, everyone who wants it has it. Dumb. All the tactical and sets should be available in game and that vendor should just have weekly random discounts.

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