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Reverse Engineering Other People's Crafted Black Hole Mods for schematics


SomeJagoff

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So I'm not sure if this is a glitch or if this is some kind of "trick" for REing. I'm full BH now, but I've been buying specific BH/26 mods off the GTN to optimize my gear. As is already known, when you try to RE other people's crafted mods, it says no research available, however, as I pulled out a mod that I know I bought off the gtn a few months ago to replace with a better one, I noticed that it said 20% chance to research a schem available. Out of curiosity, I threw the new mod that I just bought off the GTN into my armor, then pulled it out, same thing, research available. I didn't need the original mod that I pulled out, so I RE'd it for mats, didn't get a schem, but it did say research available. I also noticed that once you pull out somebody else's crafted mod from a piece of armor, the crafter's name is gone, in addition to the 20% research chance appearing. Since I only have done this once and won't be doing it again until I get better mods, I was wondering if anybody else has tried this with any success for a schematic? Just buying a mod off the gtn, throwing it into armor, pulling it out, then REing it for a schematic. I'm not sure if this is a glitch, as in there's NO research available, but the system is glitched and thinks that there is or if by putting the mod into the armor, it changes from a crafted mod to a generic mod and thus becomes researchable. Any feedback on this would be greatly appreciated!
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We've seen players ask about this before, and have some clarification for you from Jason Attard (Senior Game Balance Designer):

 

This behavior was unintended, but we do not consider it an exploit. We do intend to make reverse engineering more consistent in the future, and that may be by not allowing this or by allowing players to reverse engineer this type of mod by design. We do not consider this a violation of the rules.

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We've seen players ask about this before, and have some clarification for you from Jason Attard (Senior Game Balance Designer):

 

This behavior was unintended, but we do not consider it an exploit. We do intend to make reverse engineering more consistent in the future, and that may be by not allowing this or by allowing players to reverse engineer this type of mod by design. We do not consider this a violation of the rules.

 

A month late response. As much as I enjoy that our guild has nearly every mod/hilt/barrel/enhancement and armoring that is 27, it once again completely DEGRADES the gearing up process because now, three weeks into the brand new raid.. Most of our raiders are completely geared up and didn't even have to wait for Campaign drops to accomplish that.

 

Gearing up TOO FAST is a major reason people left this game in the first place. There was no "Carrot on the stick" to keep chasing becasue you already devoured it. If there's no reason to continue to raid for gear, what reason is there to go into it? Winning? The first kill is extremely satisfying from a Hard mode perspective, but if everyone is completely geared out... the next kill leaves a sense of "why are we doing this again?" There's no thrill, there's nothing to look forward to going in there and after you've finished you've come away with completely nothing but some Black Hole coms to spend on gear to give to your alts. (which continues the process of gearing up too fast)

 

Some would argue that you should be going in there just to blow **** up with your guildmates and from a certain perspective I can completely understand that. However, there are always those few folks in the raid who feel it's a burden to be in there if there's no point to it for them. They are then debbie downers for the entire run.

 

The "Other" game fixed this carrot issue (Though most of their encounters were not clearable in the first few weeks...and you most certainly couldn't be Best in Slot within that time frame) by adding achievements and innovative ways of doing specific boss fights. Alternative ways (that were much more difficult in most cases) that challenged the raid group and rewarded them with something special.

 

I hope the development team realizes that they need to add more incentive to raid and shift away from the instant gratification crowd that has ruined many games.

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We've seen players ask about this before, and have some clarification for you from Jason Attard (Senior Game Balance Designer):

 

This behavior was unintended, but we do not consider it an exploit. We do intend to make reverse engineering more consistent in the future, and that may be by not allowing this or by allowing players to reverse engineer this type of mod by design. We do not consider this a violation of the rules.

 

Thanks for the clarification that it's not an exploit. It can be stressful when you find something out like legacy smuggling or REing other crafters mods and you find yourself going, "uhhh, is this a cool trick or a cheat?"

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This is bad for two reasons:

1) People can gear up way too quickly without stepping foot into TFB

2) For the craters, it's disheartening to put the work into HM TFB and risk wasting BiS mods only to have someone take the easy way out and essentially "steal" your recipe

 

Take a look at the crafting list in my signature to see how quickly people have learned multiple recipes.

Edited by KorrigTS
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What is the F'ing point then to craft then if they can learn someone else's schematics. put in the hard work to do TfB HM or grind BH comms to learn 61/63 schematics. especially the 63 stuff now. just get some made and RE and take advantage of someone elses work
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A month late response. As much as I enjoy that our guild has nearly every mod/hilt/barrel/enhancement and armoring that is 27, it once again completely DEGRADES the gearing up process because now, three weeks into the brand new raid.. Most of our raiders are completely geared up and didn't even have to wait for Campaign drops to accomplish that.

 

Then don't cheat the system and grind it out like the rest of us.

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Then don't cheat the system and grind it out like the rest of us.

 

Again. Why bother if it's easily accessible? My whole point is that everything is too easy to obtain. Raiders who are crunchers will gear themselves out to have the best that they can have.

 

Thinking people will just sit around and do it the "right way" is just not going to happen if the gear is there in front of their face.

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We've seen players ask about this before, and have some clarification for you from Jason Attard (Senior Game Balance Designer):

 

This behavior was unintended, but we do not consider it an exploit. We do intend to make reverse engineering more consistent in the future, and that may be by not allowing this or by allowing players to reverse engineer this type of mod by design. We do not consider this a violation of the rules.

 

you may say it wasnt intended but not a exploit, but surely it can be easily fixed? when TFB HM came out my guild ran it on the day, i Re'd the mod from my gear and was lucky enough to learn it, i post them on gtn, 24 hours later 17 different people knew the same schemetic undercutting each person, as someone said earlier, we do the big risk to re a BIS n others take the easy way out *** is up with that, im proud i have 3/4 dead guard peices that drop from tfb hm and then i see people with custom gear who have never stepped foot in tfb busting out the same gear, what is the point, if someone can gear themselves up within 1 week is there any reason to even raid and as a crafter, which im sure all others would agree, who risk their own gear to learn a schemetic, making any sort of feesible profit is ridiculous, a 63 mod then started at 2mill now struggles to sell at 1mill just a few weeks later. this needs to be fixed, simple as. if you can remove a rock from EC to stop people taking a shortcut cause its not how the game is meant to be played, then take the shortcut out in gearing up aswell

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I don't want to beat a dead horse with this but clearly every person that has commented agrees that this needs to be addressed. Gearing is way too fast. It takes away from the experience of learning a BiS schematic and generally just degrades the game experience. It is unfortunately one of those things that does make me want to leave, and I have been in since day one. I really hope they do the right thing here and fix this exploit. It gives people way too much access to gear that they didn't have to do anything to get.
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I don't want to beat a dead horse with this but clearly every person that has commented agrees that this needs to be addressed. Gearing is way too fast. It takes away from the experience of learning a BiS schematic and generally just degrades the game experience. It is unfortunately one of those things that does make me want to leave, and I have been in since day one. I really hope they do the right thing here and fix this exploit. It gives people way too much access to gear that they didn't have to do anything to get.

 

The people who are dissatisfied with the current system are the most likely to comment when they are told that they are wrong. The fact is that end game crafting would have been a joke without this. A 20% chance on a once a week drop to learn the armoring schematic? A drop that isn't even guaranteed any more, since 1.4? No thanks. I learned the Advanced Skill Armoring 26 on my 15th attempt. That would have been almost 4 months of raiding HM EC, if the skill dropped every time and was fed to the crafters every time, to learn just that one schematic. But the truth is that during approximately that amount of time raiding, we only saw a couple skill armorings drop. So I still wouldn't have the schematic despite, as another poster put it, putting in the effort and taking the big risk. And I'd probably still be raiding in rakata armorings, with a full campaign set rotting in my bank, becuase they gave snipers patron armorings in almost every slot..

 

And for those that think us people learning from crafted items have it easy, think again. It took me seven tries to learn the Advanced Artful Mod 27. The only one that could craft was refusing to do so directly, and I had to buy all seven on the GTN. For 2.5 million credits each. Of course I crashed his market 45 minutes after learning the schematic (mostly to protest his ridiculous crafting policies), but it still drove me nearly broke and made him, the one that learned it from a piece of dread guard, filthy rich.

 

Finally, this idea that its wrong to gear up easily is ridiculous. Content grows stale after 6 months of repeating it weekly regardless of how fast it gives you gear, and making it take 6 months to get your gear from it is just frustrating. Raiding dies when guilds can't easily bring in new members, and being able to craft top end, or near top end, gear is a great way to keep fresh blood in the potential raiding pool. Gear will not teach you how to play your class, grant you raid awareness, or give insight into boss mechanics. Over gearing isn't possible for progression raiding. Easy to obtain raid gear will only allow you a fair chance at the fight, and denying that to others so you can be in your special club is short sighted.

 

P.S. You should get on the test server and start raising a stink, cause people are able to buy best in slot campaign armorings, set bonus and all, for a few dozen Black Hole comms. Talk about gearing up fast, at least buying rank 26 armorings off the GTN is expensive compared to what will happen in 1.5.

 

Grats to everyone who has been doing this for months, building up a massive credit advantage while the rest of us either didn't know, or sat on the information wondering if it was an exploit.

 

Its unfortunate to hear that the people on your server were like this. I know I've been telling everyone that has asked about my methods, as well as fleet chat a few times. People have also posted it in a few crafting threads, but it has been rather buried until now.

Edited by dinwitt
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P.S. You should get on the test server and start raising a stink, cause people are able to buy best in slot campaign armorings, set bonus and all, for a few dozen Black Hole comms. Talk about gearing up fast, at least buying rank 26 armorings off the GTN is expensive compared to what will happen in 1.5.

.

 

26's are not best in slot. What you are doing is taking away from the core experience of mmo's and top end content clearing. Giving away gear to everyone is a mistake on Bioware's part and you contributing to it is a mistake on yours. Not having to clear top tier content to get the gear from there is garbage and anyone with sense can see that. The point of games like these isn't to see who can buy the best in slot gear, it's to see who can earn through their ability to play the game and beat the bosses that give them.

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Finally, this idea that its wrong to gear up easily is ridiculous. Content grows stale after 6 months of repeating it weekly regardless of how fast it gives you gear, and making it take 6 months to get your gear from it is just frustrating. Raiding dies when guilds can't easily bring in new members, and being able to craft top end, or near top end, gear is a great way to keep fresh blood in the potential raiding pool. Gear will not teach you how to play your class, grant you raid awareness, or give insight into boss mechanics. Over gearing isn't possible for progression raiding. Easy to obtain raid gear will only allow you a fair chance at the fight, and denying that to others so you can be in your special club is short sighted.

 

It shouldn't be this easy to be full BiS (Easy in this example means 3 weeks after a brand new tier of gear is released).

 

I also don't follow how you imply others are denied a chance at a fair fight. Not giving in to the instant gratification crowd isn't excluding players. You do know the encounters are all tweaked to be doable in the previous tier of gear, right? People on the PTS were downing HM TFB encounters in a mix of campaign and rakata.

 

The issue isn't with allowing players to gear up quickly enough to participate in raids. It's when players can obtain the best gear available for little to no effort, especially when that's made possible by the players that do put in a lot of effort.

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It shouldn't be this easy to be full BiS (Easy in this example means 3 weeks after a brand new tier of gear is released).

 

I also don't follow how you imply others are denied a chance at a fair fight. Not giving in to the instant gratification crowd isn't excluding players. You do know the encounters are all tweaked to be doable in the previous tier of gear, right? People on the PTS were downing HM TFB encounters in a mix of campaign and rakata.

 

The issue isn't with allowing players to gear up quickly enough to participate in raids. It's when players can obtain the best gear available for little to no effort, especially when that's made possible by the players that do put in a lot of effort.

 

Amen.

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so nice of bioware to respond to this a month late after the game economy has been destroyed and everyone was fully equipped in best in slot mods within the first week of the patch. GG bioware. Not deeming it an exploit because so many of your limited player base abused it eh? Too afraid to whip out that ban hammer on folks who cheat? And you wonder why people dont want to play anymore....pretty shameful bioware pretty darned shameful.
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And, last month, when I was typing about schematic stealing and ppl going bis too fast because of morons that were giving away g26 (and now 27) for free I was flamed, called elitist and other crap... There even were arguments that the sods who stole my schematic didn't steal it because they had to buy the overpriced (lololololo, charging 50%-25% of the crafting price is overcharging? You people are just scabby) item first...

 

To everyone that steals schematics to flood the servers: screw you. You are the one contributing to unsubbing and demise of your game, because you leave players with no further work.

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And for those that think us people learning from crafted items have it easy, think again. It took me seven tries to learn the Advanced Artful Mod 27. The only one that could craft was refusing to do so directly, and I had to buy all seven on the GTN. For 2.5 million credits each. Of course I crashed his market 45 minutes after learning the schematic (mostly to protest his ridiculous crafting policies), but it still drove me nearly broke and made him, the one that learned it from a piece of dread guard, filthy rich.

 

You were stupid to do so for the sake of ruining his game and earning trophieshis rightful trophies for a hard work. You would get filthy rich, too, within a matter of days if you would not undercut him, not flood and place 1-2 items on gtn for the same price as he does. This a fair and clean way to play without making gtn rivalries and price wars. People buy those a lot. And they go down fast because there isn't much of them on gtn.

 

You'll always end up with more credits than you spent to r/e the schematic. That's how I made well over 300 mil in the last few months and reached the number of 140 million in my credit wallet by now. But I am not throwing the top-grade items around like candies. They are meant to be expensive and they are NOT meant to be main way to gear up but an ALTERNATIVE... If you have a lot of spare credits. Those people are not doing it for the sake of being sickly rich. Those who get their bis schematic first are usually crafters from the top-raiding guilds. That means they spend a lot of time and dedication and they need the money for guild repairs and guild gearing. It's very expensive! Guild mate is not your random players. He deserves your crafts because he is your brother in arms and you progress through the difficult content together.

 

Because of them thieves and liars I can't craft my Resolve Hilt and trade it for mats+fee. Had an idiot who told me that he wants it for his guild with lot of Sorcs. I said "okay" and later he whispered me for more, because he sent one to the wrong person. I started to question him and, thanks to the broken reply system since 1.1.5 he whispered me, instead of his mate, that I am suspecting him of r/e attempt... How do you not expect the prices to be high when you are behaving like this?

 

Now... I am off to get that feller who discovered g27 Resolve Hilt to craft me some...

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I am in support of keeping things the way they are. crafters have to spend millions (typically gbank money) to learn the schematic, so it is not unfair to those that learned them to begin with. The gear grind carrot is not what this game is about, but if u want that for yourself, then don't buy or have crafted any gear. making us suffer a million lost rolls because you dont want to allow crafters to be relevant is selfish in many ways.
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Unintended? Come on, guys, in a ticket which I received last month you stated it is designed and meant to work like this... Bioware you are starting to confuse!

 

as i said in a couple of my posts about this RE glitch issue.. when people like you were adamantly trying to prove it was intended...

 

CSR ticket replies ARE NOT equivalent to BW dev replies.

 

want another example? recall the recent nerf to purple mission yields when 1.4 hit. purple missions were returning only half of their usual haul.

 

somebody posted a screenshot of a CSR ticket sent about the purple missions. the CSR said : intended nerf.

 

2 hours later, Allison Berryman posts that it was NOT intended and they will be fixing it.

 

Conclusion: a CSR's word should be taken with a grain of salt.

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26's are not best in slot.

 

Read what I wrote. They are giving the best campaign armorings for the slot. So I'll finally be able to get Skill Armoring 26s with the set bonuses.

 

Not having to clear top tier content to get the gear from there is garbage and anyone with sense can see that.

 

So your argument is that this gear should be given as a reward for clearing top tier content...

 

The point of games like these isn't to see who can buy the best in slot gear, it's to see who can earn through their ability to play the game and beat the bosses that give them.

 

...but clearing top tier content isn't about getting the gear. Then why in the world do you care about how others get their gear, if its actually about the experience of raiding?

 

To everyone that steals schematics to flood the servers: screw you. You are the one contributing to unsubbing and demise of your game, because you leave players with no further work.

 

People don't unsub because they get powerful gear. People do unsub when repeating old content ad nauseum, or going through stupid grinds for marginal benefits. Having full rank 26 gear without entering EC HM doesn't invalidate EC HM, it just makes doing it less of a chore.

 

It shouldn't be this easy to be full BiS (Easy in this example means 3 weeks after a brand new tier of gear is released).

 

EC HM was full cleared the week it was released iirc. A person could have been full campaign that week, if he was the tank of a guild that gears their tanks first. But surely thats not a problem. BTW, three weeks is silly hyperbole. Its taken months for the crafting markets to get where they are now. Its been how long since TFB HM was released? And, on Jedi Covenant, someone has finally learned one rank 27 armoring. That's just such an unbelievably fast process, I don't know how the raiding community can tolerate it.

 

I also don't follow how you imply others are denied a chance at a fair fight. Not giving in to the instant gratification crowd isn't excluding players.

 

20+ million credits isn't any where near instant gratification, especially in an economy where the typical player's wallet amounts to a few hundred thousand credits.

 

The issue isn't with allowing players to gear up quickly enough to participate in raids. It's when players can obtain the best gear available for little to no effort, especially when that's made possible by the players that do put in a lot of effort.

 

You got it first, congratulations. The people coming later always have an easier time. Strategies are provided online, encounters are decreased in difficulty, higher tiers of gear become available, and a host of other factors conspire to make it easier for later groups to join your exclusive club. I'll admit that I am curious though, how quickly you feel people should be able to gear up. Should a new 50 have to climb the gear ranks completely, from Tionese to Dread Guard, going through weeks of unlucky EV and KP drops, without skipping a step? What about when the next tier is released, is it okay to give them a leg up or is that cheapening the experience? I mean, you had to grind to the top, why shouldn't they?

 

You were stupid to do so for the sake of ruining his game and earning trophieshis rightful trophies for a hard work. You would get filthy rich, too, within a matter of days if you would not undercut him, not flood and place 1-2 items on gtn for the same price as he does. This a fair and clean way to play without making gtn rivalries and price wars. People buy those a lot. And they go down fast because there isn't much of them on gtn.

 

I think you have a terrible misconception about whos buying the rank 27 mods off the GTN. You get an additional 8 stat points when going from rank 26 to 27. Not many people are willing to pay a million credits, let alone the 2.5 million he was charging, to do that. As far as I can tell, the only ones actually buying rank 27 mods are other crafters.

 

But I am not throwing the top-grade items around like candies. They are meant to be expensive and they are NOT meant to be main way to gear up but an ALTERNATIVE... If you have a lot of spare credits. Those people are not doing it for the sake of being sickly rich.

 

I don't believe that at all. If you weren't doing it to be sickly rich you'd be selling at cost instead of price gouging. If you wanted to limit the supply then you wouldn't even bother selling them and keep it in guild. The fact that you are selling, and selling for ridiculous mark ups, tells a better tail then what you're trying to weave here.

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You seem to be missing the point of end game raiding. Sure there is the competition side of things, but it really diminishes end game raidings purpose when a crafter can just abuse a 'glitch' or cheat like this and flood the market. I know on my server tons of folks did it and it has destroyed the server economy forever. There are people and guilds boasting hundreds of millions of credits now its ridiculous. I honestly think the real reason bioware has decided to let this pass is because so many people did it that they dont want to lose a sizeable amount of their pbase...unfortunately there are people who have already quit over this. I for one think it is disgraceful and downright shameful that bioware not only allowed this to go unchecked for so long before responding, but that they are allowing everyone to get away with it. I think this will be my last month playing this game at least for a while. I am tired of how bioware has constantly mismanaged their game. They obviously were not prepared for this. Edited by Ansalem
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