If these raids are nerfed this game will get boring again.. The fun thing about these raids is the challenge.. Christ people ***** about anything first it was to easy now it's to hard? It's hard for a reason, this is the next teir of raids, it doesn't go along with EV and KP.. You beat those out first, then move on to EC.

 

Yet again i agreed with you!! these are meant for people who love a challenge! its just like WoW guys lol i hate to say it but... you have to beat the old stuff first then the new stuff. Bioware did how they are supposed to. IMO even better then WoW did. Congrats Bioware!

Besides. SM EC is just as hard if not harder than HM EV an KP IMO.

 

This is why story mode EC will be nerfed. It is not tuned correctly for it's target audience which is groups that have not completed hm ev/kp.

 

All the people saying they didn't have a tough time with enrage timers, mechanics, etc are all raiders that completed the previous tier's hardmodes. Story mode EC is not meant for you, hard mode/nmm EC are.

I have yet so run into an issue with enrage timers on any mode in EC. Your DPS isn't doing their job.

Well my guess is still that it'll either not get nerfed to try and push players to be better (which techinically allows players.to progress to HM if they wish, and also avoids making the gap between story and hm too big).

 

or they might nerf it when hardmode is released, which could actually be a great idea to follow for all future patches.

Well my guess is still that it'll either not get nerfed to try and push players to be better (which techinically allows players.to progress to HM if they wish, and also avoids making the gap between story and hm too big).

 

or they might nerf it when hardmode is released, which could actually be a great idea to follow for all future patches.

I think for some of the fights, they just need to relax one or two more mechanics, lower the damage output of the aoes, lower the range, decrease the mechanics that go along with the tank switch, something (this is for Zorn and Toth, of course).

 

So you technicaly want all bosses to be tank and spank like in Tier 1?

*sarkasm on* Thank you, that is the right way! *sarkasm off*

 

Edit:

As I said before, on Storymode you can ALREADY ignore mechanics!

For example:

AOE Stomp on Boss 1 -> Just heal through

Tank Swap on Boss 2 -> Just heal through

Edited April 18, 2012 by Onibubu

So you technicaly want all bosses to be tank and spank like in Tier 1?

*sarkasm on* Thank you, that is the right way! *sarkasm off*

 

Edit:

As I said before, on Storymode you can ALREADY ignore mechanics!

For example:

AOE Stomp on Boss 1 -> Just heal through

Tank Swap on Boss 2 -> Just heal through

 

Yep, my guild cleared the first time, we had about half the op in full rakata and the other half on their alts. Its not hard at all we never ran into enrage timer issues.

So you technicaly want all bosses to be tank and spank like in Tier 1?

*sarkasm on* Thank you, that is the right way! *sarkasm off*

 

Edit:

As I said before, on Storymode you can ALREADY ignore mechanics!

For example:

AOE Stomp on Boss 1 -> Just heal through

Tank Swap on Boss 2 -> Just heal through

 

[sarcasm] Thank you for so cleverly summarizing my position[/sarcasm]

 

On story mode YOU can ignore mechanics. The target audience CANNOT. For the target audience, the raid still requires a high level of coordination, which is not possible in a true pickup raid. Story mode should be about 2 things. 1. introducing players to the general mechanics of the fights. And 2. gearing NEW players to raiding to the level that a progression guild will need. HM should be about getting refined, with significantly less wiggle room for error, and NMM should allow almost none.

 

It's been said over and over, but this is ALL about story mode. Make HM and NMM (when it comes) require real coordination and real gear. I couldn't care less, that's my level. But don't force coordination checks on a target group that won't have it by its very nature.

[sarcasm] Thank you for so cleverly summarizing my position[/sarcasm]

 

On story mode YOU can ignore mechanics. The target audience CANNOT. For the target audience, the raid still requires a high level of coordination, which is not possible in a true pickup raid. Story mode should be about 2 things. 1. introducing players to the general mechanics of the fights. And 2. gearing NEW players to raiding to the level that a progression guild will need. HM should be about getting refined, with significantly less wiggle room for error, and NMM should allow almost none.

 

It's been said over and over, but this is ALL about story mode. Make HM and NMM (when it comes) require real coordination and real gear. I couldn't care less, that's my level. But don't force coordination checks on a target group that won't have it by its very nature.

 

Are you suggesting that EC story mode should be nerfed so the PUG's can do it without concern? What is even the point to this idea?

 

It's not about gear, any guild that is competent knows how to get new members gear. If it's to see the "story" then I suggest to go to youtube since the operation would no longer be a game anymore anyways. If it's to learn the mechanics then I think the fight is currently doing a pretty damn good job at teaching people what to look out for.

 

PuG's can have EV, even KP if they work well together. EC is simply that step up that says "hey, work a bit more as a team and less as individual players!".

Edited April 19, 2012 by Codek

Are you suggesting that EC story mode should be nerfed so the PUG's can do it without concern? What is even the point to this idea?

 

It's not about gear, any guild that is competent knows how to get new members gear. If it's to see the "story" then I suggest to go to youtube since the operation would no longer be a game anymore anyways. If it's to learn the mechanics then I think the fight is currently doing a pretty damn good job at teaching people what to look out for.

 

PuG's can have EV, even KP if they work well together. EC is simply that step up that says "hey, work a bit more as a team and less as individual players!".

 

I think we merely disagree on what story mode ought to be. That's fine, I guess, but I don't think that those arguing that it's good the way it is are really thinking about what's good for the long term raiding population of the game. Pick up raids being successful in the most current story mode (consisting of people that geared themselves some in flashpoints and then a run or two of the earlier story mode raids, IMO) is critical to long term influx of new blood to progression raid guilds.

 

That's all I'm trying to say, and I feel like EC story mode is a little bit off that mark right now. I'm done.

I think we merely disagree on what story mode ought to be. That's fine, I guess, but I don't think that those arguing that it's good the way it is are really thinking about what's good for the long term raiding population of the game. Pick up raids being successful in the most current story mode (consisting of people that geared themselves some in flashpoints and then a run or two of the earlier story mode raids, IMO) is critical to long term influx of new blood to progression raid guilds.

 

That's all I'm trying to say, and I feel like EC story mode is a little bit off that mark right now. I'm done.

 

The best thing for the long term raiding population is to strongly encourage raiders to form guilds and create bond with other players. I can't imagine someone playing this game for years simply by PuGing raid content. what better way is there to draw people into joining guilds then to create a challenge that PuG's just can't cross?

 

We have and always will have successful PuG groups doing raids but there is no reason that this is necessary for all content. That would only encourage people to try the new content and just end it there.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Codek

What if they removed the enrage timers (and just the enrage timers) altogether from SM EC? That should make it easy enough for causal players who are having trouble with it to down bosses without nerfing the encounters directly. I mean give it a couple weeks so the content isn't cleared so quickly they stop raiding, but would that be fair if just done with SM and not any other level?

You must have some pretty bad dps then. When we did Denova in the first week our dps was mostly columi, with a few rakata pieces here and there, and we never hit an enrage timer, with the exception of the 3rd puzzle boss turrets when we were still learning the encounter and didnt know the turrets could enrage

 

 

Also, we did have problems with the bomb adds on the last boss but we found a way to beat them once we switched to burst dps rotations.

What if they removed the enrage timers (and just the enrage timers) altogether from SM EC? That should make it easy enough for causal players who are having trouble with it to down bosses without nerfing the encounters directly. I mean give it a couple weeks so the content isn't cleared so quickly they stop raiding, but would that be fair if just done with SM and not any other level?

 

That would bring up the other issue that arises when enrage timers are not present. All the DPS classes will no longer be held to the same standards that tanks and healers are placed at. Thus all DPS can just walk in with greens and blame healers for not keeping them up long enough to kill the boss. Or worse, they walk in with nothing but greens and actually succeed with spamming basic attack or some other extreme example of uselessness.

Yeah they shouldn't nerf it and this is from someone who has not cleared it. We got close, but because our tanks had problems with the mechanics it's our bad. It seems very doable with good DPS & heals and proper mechanics. Excited to try again until we get it right.

The best thing for the long term raiding population is to strongly encourage raiders to form guilds and create bond with other players. I can't imagine someone playing this game for years simply by PuGing raid content. what better way is there to draw people into joining guilds then to create a challenge that PuG's just can't cross?

 

We have and always will have successful PuG groups doing raids but there is no reason that this is necessary for all content. That would only encourage people to try the new content and just end it there.

 

 

The one point I think you're missing as this is supposed to be considered the beginning of tier 2 of operations. There is no way fresh 50s with greens should be able to even kill trash in here. Think of it this way...

 

Story EV+KP

|

Hard EV+KP == Story EC

|

NM EV+KP == Hard EC

 

Regardless of it being considered story mode, you still need to progress to clear content. Otherwise BW would just be releasing all Tier 1 stuff with equal difficulties.

The one point I think you're missing as this is supposed to be considered the beginning of tier 2 of operations. There is no way fresh 50s with greens should be able to even kill trash in here. Think of it this way...

 

Story EV+KP

|

Hard EV+KP == Story EC

|

NM EV+KP == Hard EC

 

Regardless of it being considered story mode, you still need to progress to clear content. Otherwise BW would just be releasing all Tier 1 stuff with equal difficulties.

 

I'm confused as to why you quoted me. that's the point I'm trying to make without the dangerous comparison between HM EV/KP and sM EC.

Why even have enrage timers on Story Mode? We're not talking min/maxers trying to trivialize the content. We're talking casual people who don't want to sweat out a 5 min timer. Gotta use WoW here. Yeah a lot if not most WoW bosses had enrage timers but they were extremely forgiving. (Can't speak for Cataclysm quit after Wrath) Basically if you could keep alive long enough to down a boss you wouldn't normally run up against timers. Enrage timers seem like lazy design. Like every boss is a dps check. Boring. HM Ops ok fine yeah you need solid dps and you should they are called Hardmodes. But I still think they could find better and more interesting designs to incorporate than...ok we have the boss fight design down, now we just need to add an enrage timer because we can't come up with any better ideas.

Why even have enrage timers on Story Mode? We're not talking min/maxers trying to trivialize the content. We're talking casual people who don't want to sweat out a 5 min timer. Gotta use WoW here. Yeah a lot if not most WoW bosses had enrage timers but they were extremely forgiving. (Can't speak for Cataclysm quit after Wrath) Basically if you could keep alive long enough to down a boss you wouldn't normally run up against timers. Enrage timers seem like lazy design. Like every boss is a dps check. Boring. HM Ops ok fine yeah you need solid dps and you should they are called Hardmodes. But I still think they could find better and more interesting designs to incorporate than...ok we have the boss fight design down, now we just need to add an enrage timer because we can't come up with any better ideas.

 

Enrage timers are lazy. They should just come up with more complicated mechanics and personal responsibility checks instead of an enrage timer.

 

The problem with that is PuGs cant handle super complicated mechanics and they would cry that it is too hard. So they go the easy route with semi simple mechanics and enrage timers.