Many folks here on these forums, on Reddit and other fan sites agree, most raiding in SWTOR is compartmentalized within the raid guilds that currently exist these days and very few HM PUG's are successful and therefore the practice is being abandoned.

The problem that the game as a whole seems to be running into is that there aren't many experienced raider's who have the skill to beat HM/NiM ops left and those who do have the skill are spread out among many guilds. There is also a shortage of guilds willing, truly willing, to do the work to teach a new players how to learn the skills they need to beat the current content and to help them get the gear. Sure there are plenty of us saying that we are willing teachers and gear doesn't matter. Honestly though, no one wants to spend a month backtracking through content they got bored of 4 years ago and are beginning to loathe now that BW has "made it relevant again." No one really WANTS to spend 2 weeks gearing a newbie, a month teaching them the fights and then turn around again a month later and do that same thing all over again. Many of us do it because we are good, nice, decent people, others do it because it is the only way to keep raiding. But it seems more often than not, most guilds prefer to get an experienced player who already has the skill and gear or fold up shop.

Let's be perfectly clear, the Op's are only relevant again because people want the gear that drops from the Highlighted HM's. Other than the gear grind, these old ops mean absolutely squat to most veteran players. There is no challenge left in those Op's. Sure HM Denova is still challenging, but it's more than passable. HM Styrak is still challenging, but more than do-able and the same holds true for Fortress, Palace, Ravager and ToS.

I have spoken with many folks from about 7 different guilds and the consensus seems to be that if there isn't a new, fully functional op out by the end of KotFE Season 1 in August then many of us (I'm talking 120 players from 7 different guilds across 3 servers) that will be leaving SWTOR until a new Op is published. If they announce an Op to be dropped before the end of the year, about half of us are willing to keep playing, but with Ops passes bought off the GTN and canceling our subscriptions till the Op drops.

To put that into a monetary or measurable format, that is $1,798.80 per month that will no longer be going into the EA pocketbook if we do not see a new Op soon. Sure, in the grand scheme of things that is chump change, but If this is our position, how do we know if it isn't the position of many others as well?

I'll be clear, new levels to grind out, a new tier of gear, an instance boss, a Flash Point, or a series of Solo Mode fights aren't gonna keep many of us around. It's too late for all of that. If a FP or instance boss had come out between Dec or March, then that may have satisfied many. Not now. It's an Op or good-bye. Many of us have already jumped into ESO, Marvel Hero's, Blade and Soul and Black Dessert as "hold-me-over's" moving away from the MMO part of this MMORPG is going to accomplish nothing other than pushing out long term subscribers. Because we are a multi-game guild my guild has gotten MANY new members in all of the above mentioned games simply because they have heard we are taking in SWTOR refugees.

People love this game, HM raiders still playing SWTOR still LOVE this game, it is the reason we still play. It is the reason we WANT to see new Op's, PvP maps, instanced bosses and flashpoints. It's the reason we are so vocal about what we want. SWTOR is leaving almost nothing for the end game player to do. Don't give me that "all the stories are so awesome" horse crap. I have played every story twice on JC, once on Shadowlands and select stories on Harbanger. I have played the stories to their bloody boredom point and the stories from Makeb - KotFE (with the exception of Rishi) have no replay value in my book. I know that many people feel the same way I do.

So is it time for me to take a break?

Yep.

Is it time for MANY others like me to take a break?

Yep.

Will many of us come back?

Given the state of SWTOR and the state of other games available...

It's doubtful. So many are gone having vowed never to return and more are joining them everyday.

All most of us really want is some new Op's and filler content that gives us a reason to play SWTOR and only SWTOR. In the end that puts money, lots and lots of money, into the BW/EA coffers. That, in turn, allows them to continue to produce all sorts of content that lots of people can enjoy. So tell me how it is that Veteran Raiders clamoring for new Op's is a bad thing?

Hell of a long way to say "Moar Rayds Or We /Ragequit" don't you think?

All The Best

Many folks here on these forums

 

All most of us really want

Don't you dare try to include me among your "many" and "most". Your "many" and "most" is wrong as well. PVP/OPs players are not this game's "many" and "most."

Don't you dare try to include me among your "many" and "most". Your "many" and "most" is wrong as well. PVP/OPs players are not this game's "many" and "most."

*tiredly raises her hand*

Why can't people just say "I" instead of "we"?

Don't you dare try to include me among your "many" and "most". Your "many" and "most" is wrong as well. PVP/OPs players are not this game's "many" and "most."

Yup.

The reason so many MMORPGs have moved away from Raids/Ops/PvP is because as relative to the entire player base MOST players don't play them and NOT many do.

That's not to say I'd ever like to see a game that didn't have those things; but the thread starters statements about "most and many" are not supported by facts.

All The Best

The problem that the game as a whole seems to be running into is that there aren't many experienced raider's who have the skill to beat HM/NiM ops left and those who do have the skill are spread out among many guilds. ?

The community as a whole brought that onto themselves.

I raided a lot in other games, in this game I have no intention doing anything other than SM.

Why?

Because it requires that you install a 3rd party program AND nobody will take you with them if you don't already know the tactics. I have spoken to 5 guilds the last few weeks, all of them declined because I don't already know the tactics. It's like they expect that SWTOR knowledge is passed on genetically.

Also, I had to abandon 3 SM Groups in the last 2 weeks (one yesterday), because some HC/NIM Raiders started arguing about irrelevant stuff from HC Raids and got so caught up in it, started insulting each other and then they left and then everyone else left.

At some point you just give up and stick with SM.

I do my daily OPS and that is it with raiding for me in this game, as long as the raiding community is not more inclusive instead of exclusive.

If you are only here waiting for new ops, it's time for a break. If they had one in development, they would tell you. Since they have not, it is obviously 6+ months out at least. If you enjoy other aspects of the game like myself, then stick around and hope they put out something new to satisfy that desire as well.

Gotta agree with this stick around if the game is still to your liking or come back when they release new content.

The community as a whole brought that onto themselves.

I raided a lot in other games, in this game I have no intention doing anything other than SM.

Why?

Because it requires that you install a 3rd party program AND nobody will take you with them if you don't already know the tactics. I have spoken to 5 guilds the last few weeks, all of them declined because I don't already know the tactics. It's like they expect that SWTOR knowledge is passed on genetically.

 

Also, I had to abandon 3 SM Groups in the last 2 weeks (one yesterday), because some HC/NIM Raiders started arguing about irrelevant stuff from HC Raids and got so caught up in it, started insulting each other and then they left and then everyone else left.

 

At some point you just give up and stick with SM.

 

I do my daily OPS and that is it with raiding for me in this game, as long as the raiding community is not more inclusive instead of exclusive.

HM/NiM groups in every game require some third party application to join. No one is doing them without some sort of VoIP application like Mumble or Teamspeak. Many like you to have Starparse as well so you can see how you are performing your role and where you took damage that might indicate why you failed. There are at least 3 guilds with open recruitment on Harb willing to take inexperienced raiders into groups, so I disagree that guilds won't take you if you don't know what you're doing.

But these raids are all more than a year old (if not 4 years old) and most players know how to complete them if they are participating. You will be hard pressed to find a group that is wanting to go in blind and "learn" the fights on their own. Best case scenario you pick a guild willing to explain the mechanics to you during the raid (I know of at least one that will). Worst case scenario, they want you to read the Dulfy guide beforehand.

Why can't people just say "I" instead of "we"?

If they say "I" then they have to acknowledge that they speak for the one (themselves). If they say "we" that frees them up to speak for everyone, conflate as needed on behalf of everyone, and make up data and present it as fact, on behalf of everyone.

It's a weak sauce approach to discussion, and using "we" seems to trigger some napoleon complex that they can soap box from. They use "we" in the imperial sense.

Or.. to make is simpler... if you invent a crowd around you, you feel safer to say what you mean because you think you have a posse backing you up.

Note to readers: The OP DOES NOT speak for me.

If they say "I" then they have to acknowledge that they speak for the one (themselves). If they say "we" that frees them up to speak for everyone, conflate as needed on behalf of everyone, and make up data and present it as fact, on behalf of everyone.

 

It's a weak sauce approach to discussion, and using "we" seems to trigger some napoleon complex that they can soap box from.

 

Or.. to make is simpler... if you invent a crowd around you, you feel safer to say what you mean because you think you have a posse backing you up.

 

Note to readers: The OP DOES NOT speak for me.

I know that. The comment was rhetorical.

HM/NiM groups in every game require some third party application to join. No one is doing them without some sort of VoIP application like Mumble or Teamspeak. Many like you to have Starparse as well so you can see how you are performing your role and where you took damage that might indicate why you failed. There are at least 3 guilds with open recruitment on Harb willing to take inexperienced raiders into groups, so I disagree that guilds won't take you if you don't know what you're doing.

 

But these raids are all more than a year old (if not 4 years old) and most players know how to complete them if they are participating. You will be hard pressed to find a group that is wanting to go in blind and "learn" the fights on their own. Best case scenario you pick a guild willing to explain the mechanics to you during the raid (I know of at least one that will). Worst case scenario, they want you to read the Dulfy guide beforehand.

I am obviously not talking about Teamspeak. And I am not installing StarParse.

Besides that, 4 out of the 5 guilds checked my achievements and declined me when they saw I never did HC Raids, because I kind of just restarted the game and never did much raiding in 2013, due to lack of time.

Anyway, I just wanted to point that out that exclusiveness is killing the game too. There is always a drain of experienced players and if you don't train new people, then there will be nobody left to play with. I keep tanking SM and people can continue to search for Tanks with "E&E".

I am obviously not talking about Teamspeak. And I am not installing StarParse.

Besides that, 4 out of the 5 guilds checked my achievements and declined me when they saw I never did HC Raids, because I kind of just restarted the game and never did much raiding in 2013, due to lack of time.

 

Anyway, I just wanted to point that out that exclusiveness is killing the game too. There is always a drain of experienced players and if you don't train new people, then there will be nobody left to play with. I keep tanking SM and people can continue to search for Tanks with "E&E".

It depends on the group you are trying to join. If the group has completed most HM raids and are doing NiM or the ends of Rav/ToS, then they aren't going to want someone new. It would reset the whole group's progress. You need to find a group that is at your level and wanting to progress further. They exist, you seem to be selecting the wrong ones, however.

If you aren't installing Starparse for whatever reason, your options will be limited. It is a great tool for improving your own performance and helping identify where the group has issues. If you aren't willing to put in time and help make the group better, they will most likely not want to invest time in you as a player either.

I know that. The comment was rhetorical.

Hehe.. I know that too... but it is worth explaining in a positive context, before you get spammed with nonsense about it being their right or entitlement.

If you aren't installing Starparse for whatever reason, your options will be limited. It is a great tool for improving your own performance and helping identify where the group has issues. If you aren't willing to put in time and help make the group better, they will most likely not want to invest time in you as a player either.

StarParse is a violation of the EULA/TOS. And I don't need it. I can play games without some not allowed Software telling me what to do. Might surprise you, but some players actually do have skill.

Hehe.. I know that too... but it is worth explaining in a positive context, before you get spammed with nonsense about it being their right or entitlement.

Aha! Well, obviously more caffeine is needed then. Sorry and thanks.

Don't you dare try to include me among your "many" and "most". Your "many" and "most" is wrong as well. PVP/OPs players are not this game's "many" and "most."

This post seems unnecessary. The OP uses many and most almost exclusively when referring to raiders and endgame focused guilds. In the instances where he uses "we" type phrases, they are in the section where the OP mentions speaking to players across 7 different guilds. It would appear the sentiment was shared by those he/she is speaking for.

Stop dismissing everyone that posts something just because others on the forums choose to speak as the majority with no proof. That didn't happen here.

StarParse is a violation of the EULA/TOS. And I don't need it. I can play games without some not allowed Software telling me what to do. Might surprise you, but some players actually do have skill.

It is not against ToS as the developer of the application has assured you and others multiple times. It was confirmed with BW to make sure it was not an issue for players to use. Starparse doesn't tell me what to do, it just tells me what I did and I use that knowledge to do better next time.

I'm gonna throw this out there - if part of the game requires third-party software; that's doing it wrong. Either SWTOR should have built-in voice chat, or it shouldn't have content requiring voice chat.

(pockets safety pin, walks away)

I am obviously not talking about Teamspeak. And I am not installing StarParse.

Besides that, 4 out of the 5 guilds checked my achievements and declined me when they saw I never did HC Raids, because I kind of just restarted the game and never did much raiding in 2013, due to lack of time.

 

Anyway, I just wanted to point that out that exclusiveness is killing the game too. There is always a drain of experienced players and if you don't train new people, then there will be nobody left to play with. I keep tanking SM and people can continue to search for Tanks with "E&E".

Hard core raiding guilds have been this way for years, on any MMO I have played on.

What you are seeking is what is commonly called a "casual raiding" guild. These typically will run more SM, but will also organize teams to run the top end difficulties as well. These guilds, generally speaking, are more open to running raids to actually help teach newer players how to do so effectively. But they tend to get farmed by some players for the learning and then abandon them for a hard core raiding guild.. and HC guilds will also willing recruit from the casual guilds ranks sometimes as well.

Personally, I loathe the hard core raid guild approach. They are generally elitist, are first to jump in and learn the encounter so they can brag about it and put the raid on "farm status" so that they can run it for a few weeks, and then come to the forum and demand "moar raids nao". They are also notoriously uncommitted to an MMO. They will consume all the raid content and then wither away or leave in mass for the next MMO..... and come back later and rinse and repeat.

All that said.. years ago in WoW... when the HC raiding guilds were trying to out-epeen each other.. a practice of launching "leveling guilds" got under way on some servers. HC guilds would form them, recruit newer players into them to build them up to size, and then pick a promising recruit and make them GM and cut them loose and tell them to call back when they were level capped and ready to start to learn progression raiding. It never really worked well IMO, as the HC guild did not actually pay enough attention or provide learning... rather they used it as an easy funnel to find the most self-sufficient who would find ways to learn the content, and ultimately get cherry picked by the HC guild.

StarParse is a violation of the EULA/TOS. And I don't need it. I can play games without some not allowed Software telling me what to do. Might surprise you, but some players actually do have skill.

implying starparse tells you what to do

if there was something wrong with useing starparse you can bet Bioware/EA or whoever would have done something about it

Don't you dare try to include me among your "many" and "most". Your "many" and "most" is wrong as well. PVP/OPs players are not this game's "many" and "most."

You assume a lot, please leave your preconceived notions at the door and re read the post sans bad attitude.

Thank you.

You assume a lot, please leave your preconceived notions at the door and re read the post sans bad attitude.

Thank you.

Honestly... I find this statement in this thread to be dripping with irony.

What you are seeking is what is commonly called a "casual raiding" guild. These typically will run more SM, but will also organize teams to run the top end difficulties as well. These guilds, generally speaking, are more open to running raids to actually help teach newer players how to do so effectively. But they tend to get farmed by some players for the learning and then abandon them for a hard core raiding guild.. and HC guilds will also willing recruit from the casual guilds ranks sometimes as well.

 

It is now casual if you want to play a game without any outside tools?

Wow... times changed .