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Taugrim's "Iron Fist" 25/14/2 PVP Tank Spec [Video]


taugrimtaugrim

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Watch the video:

| on my blog

 

Copy of the description for the video provided below.

 

Keep in mind that while the footage is from a 50 Vanguard, VG and Powertech are mirrors in terms of their mechanics and talent trees.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

This video covers my “Iron Fist” 25/14/2 PVP tank spec.

 

I designed the spec after discerning the limitations of the Defense (avoidance) and Shield (block) mechanics for tanks in PVP. Mitigation is king in SWTOR PVP. The two 2% mitigation talents and 5% mitigation from the tanking stance stack additively to provide 9% mitigation against all damage types (i.e. Elemental, Energy, Internal, and Kinetic) - you can see this by mousing over Damage Reduction on your Character window.

 

The 4-pc Tech set bonus, Flame Shield talent, and Flame Surge talent synergize to generate a high frequency of high-damage Rocket Punch crits.

 

Here is the spec used in the video:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301GRGb0RroMZMcrroZb.1

 

The “Iron Fist” spec has been very effective for me in PVP, both group play and solo. It’s designed to support aggressive close-quarters combat gameplay: you can tank and burn down MDPS and pressure and shutdown casters and healers, while retaining Guard, charge, and debuff capability.

 

For more information about Powertech PVP, please refer to my free in-depth Guide.

 

I queued solo for the Huttball match shown in the video.

 

Comments / Errata:

  1. I had an incorrect Relic bound on my Quickslot bar. The point made in the video still stands: the level 50 Crit buff stacks with a Relic

UPDATE (2012/01/29): to clarify why mitigation matters and how it stacks, consider the following:

Talents such as Power Armor are not affected by diminishing returns, and mitigation becomes more valuable the more you have.

 

Without points in the two 2% mitigation talents, my mitigation against Energy and Kinetic attacks is 45.5% from Armor and the tanking stance, so I suffer 54.5 points of damage out of every 100.

 

With Iron Fist, the mitigation increases to 49.5%, so I suffer 50.5 points of damage out of every 100.

 

Which means that a non-IF tank spec is going to take 7.9% (4 / 50.5) more damage than an IF build. The difference is significant and very noticeable in PVP.

 

By the same token, the damage that a non-IF spec takes from Elemental and Internal damage compared to an IF spec is > 4%.

 

I.e. non-IF in tank stance has 5% mitigation against those damage types, and IF has 9%. So 95 damage taken vs 91 damage taken, or an increase of 4.4%.

 

When you factor in the +10% mitigation buff from Sages/Sorcs (I think it’s theirs), the gap between non-IF and IF tank specs widens to 4.9% (4 / 81).

 

And the above percentages again increase when you factor in the 4% damage debuff we apply to opponents.

 

UPDATE (2012/2/2): people have been asking about gear for this spec. Here's what you want to get:

  • Supercommando Shield offhand: to leverage the free +15% Shield Chance buff you get from the tanking stance. While I don't believe the Shield Chance stat is worth stacking for PVP, the +15% benefit is worth leveraging
  • Combat Tech 4-pc set: for the awesome +15% Crit Chance to Rocket Punch (Stockstrike). Alternatively, if you prefer the Supercommando set bonuses, you can go 4-pc Supercommando and swap out the mods for DPS ones
  • Go for DPS stats for the remaining slots: this means Eliminator, Combat Tech, and in some cases Combat Medic. The priority for the stats is what I documented in the Stats and Gear section of my Powertech / Vanguard Guide

UPDATE (2012/02/17): with the nerf to Surge Rating in 1.1.3, burst damage is down significantly for all players and time-to-kill has increased. An implication is that "mana" management has become more important.

 

As such, I moved the point in Oil Slick over to the second point in Shield Vents. The idea here is to get your internal cooldown on the Heat vent proc from SV ticking as fast as possible.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301GRGb0RroMZMcrroZb.1

Edited by taugrimtaugrim
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Interesting build, how does it do in PVE tanking? Can you offtank decently or take lead in flashpoints still?

 

This isn't a PVE spec. There are a lot of talent points spent for abilities that aren't that that relevant in PVE.

 

It's probably fine for group play but any hard-mode or ops content you'll make life easier for your healers by spec'ing into the Shield talents that this spec largely intentionally skips.

 

EDIT (2012/01/29): FWIW, I tanked my first SWTOR instance tonight, Hard-Mode Directive 7, and the spec held up fine even with only 3 pieces of "tanking" gear from PVP: Champion legs and weapon and Centurion shield offhand.

Edited by taugrimtaugrim
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Do you think moving one over from Hot Iron/Frontline Offense to Prototype Cylinders/Blaster Augs is worth it?

 

Nope.

 

Prototype Cylinders is an 8% increase to the damage from our tanking stance proc effect. So it's a modest increase for an already-low damage ability.

 

Hot Iron buffs our main spammable instant-cast nuke and our melee DoT. It's the better choice.

 

Prototype Cylinders rocks for Pyrotech or Advanced Prototype builds but is very meh for tank specs.

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I wanted to watch the whole video a few times to provide an opinion on it. Pardon some bluntness to my comments but that is how I am, I can also be a bit opinionated so fair warning in advance. (I know you made a thread about this build before but without an accompaning video)

 

When I see the build, and watch the video, the thing that comes in to my mind is not "Ironfist" but "Grapple in to things on Huttball" Build. (Partially because you do it a lot and comment on it frequently. How's that working out for ya in Voidstar or Civil War...).

 

Otherwise, I saw nothing spectacular from this video. Nothing that would make me be like "Wow, I should try that". I saw a rather ineffective build (in my opinion) against a team that was rather terrible (which is a hard basis to make a point on the effectiveness of a build)

 

Points Of Interest:

 

At 4:50 You are attacking a sage and talk about how people say the lower cooldown on quell is useless. Well, it is. The minimal damage you were doing to the sage was hardly enough to ever kill him (at least this player). It wasn't until the OTHER player jumped in his health dropped quickly. (Which at that point you would have two players with interrupts anyway so the lower cooldown on quell becomes a useless talent)

 

Rocket Punch Crits were not "Bursty" to me as you say. Even coupled with a Rail shot it isn't a lot of damage. They barely broke the 2.5k Mark the entire video. The overall damage output of this build alone seems sub-par. (Referencing the end game screenshot, 220K for a PT is low for most "dps or hybrid" specs that are actually playing)

 

MOst of the "fights" were with a good amount of your team around so again hard to give the versatility of your build. (Minus the Jet Charge to the end). I personally may have had more "respect" for this build in a match that your team struggles in and the other team is fighting back a good amount. Those 0-0 or 1-1 or 1-2 Games that make you play your hardest to win. That's where you see specs and players shine through a bit beter.

 

So, with that said, and I hate comparing but it starts a conversation which is important.

 

What does "Iron Fist" give over "Parakeet"? (Note: I currently am a full pyro dps but just to provide discussion points)

 

I want to be as serious as I can when asking that. Why would people take this build? You get better heat management, better burst and sustatined damage, and jet charge with the Parakeet build, not to mention Guard and IGC as well.

 

I personally feel having a build that provides killing power as well as the protection works out a lot better then being able to grapple root people in acid or interrupt a healer you can't kill yourself.

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What does "Iron Fist" give over "Parakeet"? (Note: I currently am a full pyro dps but just to provide discussion points)

 

I've used both... and parakeet is just weak, I didn't even stick with it a day. I'm full pyrotech now but I still enjoy using a variation of taugrims build. It's certainly not a perfect build but as far as I'm concerned a 6 second interrupt(grav shot/force lightning/tracer spam is basically nullified) and reduced cool down on grapple is far more useful, considering 90% of games are huttball. Nevertheless grapple is still useful as an interrupt of heals and a way to get a healer or someone nearly dead out of range of heals in voidstar and civil war.

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I wanted to watch the whole video a few times to provide an opinion on it.

 

It's one video, and a PUG at that.

 

I've put up much higher damage numbers in other warzones, PUG or premade. Part of the reason I chose this match was I received ~3000 healing (no, I didn't forget a zero) the entire match from other players, so it was a good opportunity to showcase how the spec looks with little support.

 

If you want to see more footage, go check my archived stream videos. The first night I ran Iron Fist - and I mean I was noob to the spec and hadn't adjusted my rotations - it was working really well. I was beating up BM-geared players, shutting down and soloing some healers.

 

So, with that said, and I hate comparing but it starts a conversation which is important.

 

What does "Iron Fist" give over "Parakeet"? (Note: I currently am a full pyro dps but just to provide discussion points)

 

I want to be as serious as I can when asking that. Why would people take this build? You get better heat management, better burst and sustatined damage, and jet charge with the Parakeet build, not to mention Guard and IGC as well.

 

Let me first state that I get why people have been running Carolina Parakeet (21/2/18) - they're trying to maintain tank utility while packing some punch. It's a popular spec for good reason.

 

Let's take out the common factors first. Both specs have:

- charge

- Guard

- tanking stance

 

Heat management difference is negligible IMO.

 

I've discussed in my PVP Guide why Gyroscopic Alignment Jets isn't really that helpful, but in a nutshell 3 of the 4 CC effects which proc the heat venting for GAJ are during times you can't do anything anyway and are already passively venting heat and not building it.

 

I tried GAJ for dozens of matches and was hoping it would provide the heat help I was looking for, but I finally dumped it for Infrared Sensors based on player feedback and in my experience IS provides more value.

 

I would actually argue that it can be easier to go OOM with CP if you are not careful with IM, but whatever.

 

Here is what you gain with Carolina Parakeet:

+ improved ranged capability

+ better burst mechanics when Prototype Particle Accelerator procs multiple times in a short time window

 

Here is what you gain with Iron Fist:

+ better mitigation and CC capability

+ no wasted talent points or set bonuses

 

I've been talking to people who've been trying Iron Fist based on my streaming this week, and people have been raving about it.

Edited by taugrimtaugrim
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as far as I'm concerned a 6 second interrupt(grav shot/force lightning/tracer spam is basically nullified) and reduced cool down on grapple is far more useful, considering 90% of games are huttball. Nevertheless grapple is still useful as an interrupt of heals and a way to get a healer or someone nearly dead out of range of heals in voidstar and civil war.

 

I've been surprised by how little value players give to the CC abilities for PT. My guess is its partly due to people being very focused on big numbers on their screen.

 

The 35-sec Grapple with 3-sec root is freaking amazing in Ilum.

 

When we're outnumbered, we pull opponents one at a time, kill them, then push and wipe / drive back the others.

 

Grapple is win.

Grapple with root is even better.

Grapple with root and lower cooldown is bestest.

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Probably because 10 seconds off grapple isnt going to change anything with current time to kill being less than 30 seconds.

Might be worth it for a huttball specialist, but then you might be best going full gimic mode with an AP build up to hydraulic overrides.

For me at least 20 seconds seems to be the magic number for an ability you might get to use twice in a fight.

 

Almost all the pvp CD talents for all classes seem really weak because of this. They don't turn an ability into a twice in one fight ability they just seem up once in individual fights a tiny fraction more often because of the gaps in the action being longer than the fights.

Edited by ducksmyth
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Probably because 10 seconds off grapple isnt going to change anything with current time to kill being less than 30 seconds.

Might be worth it for a huttball specialist, but then you might be best going full gimic mode with an AP build up to hydraulic overrides.

For me at least 20 seconds seems to be the magic number for an ability you might get to use twice in a fight.

 

Almost all the pvp CD talents for all classes seem really weak because of this. They don't turn an ability into a twice in one fight ability they just seem up once in individual fights a tiny fraction more often because of the gaps in the action being longer than the fights.

 

Yeah that's just what we need more CC abilities more often in a fight. Longer cooldowns force you to think about a fight not just use everything because it will be back up in 20 seconds anyway.

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Yeah that's just what we need more CC abilities more often in a fight. Longer cooldowns force you to think about a fight not just use everything because it will be back up in 20 seconds anyway.

 

Im not saying we need it, just that it makes the talents weak.

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Probably because 10 seconds off grapple isnt going to change anything with current time to kill being less than 30 seconds.

Might be worth it for a huttball specialist, but then you might be best going full gimic mode with an AP build up to hydraulic overrides.

For me at least 20 seconds seems to be the magic number for an ability you might get to use twice in a fight.

 

Almost all the pvp CD talents for all classes seem really weak because of this. They don't turn an ability into a twice in one fight ability they just seem up once in individual fights a tiny fraction more often because of the gaps in the action being longer than the fights.

 

Grapple is pretty awesome for peels and node protection. Really has nothing to do with "average kill time". Seems like youre thinking of a 1v1 situation - if thats your game, stick with full pyro.

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Looks like a very interesting build.

But there is one point on the talent tree i dont understand.

Why not put 2 points into Shield Vents? The point in Supercharged Ion Gas looks rather underwhelming.

 

Will watch the Video now.

 

The internal cooldown is the issue with SV.

 

SIG extends your DoT duration by 50% and the damage as well. It's a solid choice.

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FWIW, Iron Fist is an excellent 1v1 spec.

 

We have counters against a lot of classes.

 

Sure, most shieldtech specs are decent 1v1 - but the time it takes makes us better served as support/peels imo. Not to mention if youre caught up in a 1v1, you probably arent in range to guard anybody.

I certainly wouldnt put a shieldtech in my premade for slaying potential. Other classes/pyro do that far better.

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Sure, most shieldtech specs are decent 1v1 - but the time it takes makes us better served as support/peels imo. Not to mention if youre caught up in a 1v1, you probably arent in range to guard anybody.

 

I prefaced my comment with 1v1 not 8v8.

 

Keep in mind the context when reading what people write :D

Edited by taugrimtaugrim
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I prefaced my comment with 1v1 not 8v8.

 

Keep in mind the context when reading what people write :D

 

I suppose we just have different requirements for "excellent 1v1" specs, then.

 

No need for the condesension. Im not trying to say the build is bad, only that in warzones (where your vid is featured) ST builds should not be played as a 1v1 spec.

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Iron fist builds are not full dps builds. Usualy its best to use it more to control flow of the fight using taunts, charge and graple to deliver a quick burst to change losing 1v1 in to 2v1 win, chase runners, shut down healers/high dps players, pell operatives(then they are usualy to busy chasing you for revenge instead of contributing to the win :D) etc.

Sages are difficult for iron fist especialy if we dont get usual crit string cos they are able to re-buble at about 15-20% hp extending their ehp pool over our heat cap. This is general issue with any BH build(and it might require a revmap of our abilities in future) but particulary hard hiting on performance of iron fist.

 

In vid also taugrim seems to not be used that much to this build. He is walking too much instead of using full mobility of rocket charge. :D

Edited by Rabbitofdoom
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Iron fist builds are not full dps builds.

 

This is something that confuses me.

 

I see people making posts and creating threads claiming for example that Pyrotech builds out-damage Carolina Parakeet / tanking builds. Of course they do LOLZ. Pyrotech is the DPS tree, and builds with 21+ in Shield Tech are putting more points in the tank tree than the DPS trees.

 

A player that invests 21+ points in the tank tree is not doing it for the damage. They're doing it for the utility from Guard, Jet Charge, etc and increase in durability.

 

Usualy its best to use it more to control flow of the fight using taunts, charge and graple to deliver a quick burst to change losing 1v1 in to 2v1 win, chase runners, shut down healers/high dps players, pell operatives(then they are usualy to busy chasing you for revenge instead of contributing to the win :D) etc.

 

Yep, agreed.

 

In vid also taugrim seems to not be used that much to this build. He is walking too much instead of using full mobility of rocket charge. :D

 

I walk when the opponent is not far away, otherwise I charge.

 

For full disclosure, I started playing this spec 4 days ago, and the video footage was from my first night with this new spec.

 

Prior to trying tank specs at 50 I spent time experimenting with various Pyrotech builds (e.g. 4/6/31 which IMO is the best for all-out offense, 0/12/29, etc) and Pyro/AP builds (e.g. 1/22/18).

 

So I am still adjusting to the different playstyle of Iron Fist.

 

One simple example is always using Rocket Punch when it's off cooldown as IF, as opposed to what you do with builds with 18+ points in Pyro - firing Rail Shot as soon as it's available.

Edited by taugrimtaugrim
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Wanted to share with y'all a post I made re: mitigation on the Vanguard mirror thread:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2292181#edit2292181

 

But i can see your point with all the passive damage reduction - and with the more or less "new" lvl 50 WZ bracket - more survivability aint a bad thing - especially when i havent reached 50 yet. Lvl 39 atm.

 

Keep in mind that talents such as Power Armor are not affected by diminishing returns, and mitigation becomes more valuable the more you have.

 

Without points in the two 2% mitigation talents, my mitigation against Energy and Kinetic attacks is 45.5% from Armor and the tanking stance, so I suffer 54.5 points of damage out of every 100.

 

With Iron Fist, the mitigation increases to 49.5%, so I suffer 50.5 points of damage out of every 100.

 

Which means that a non-IF tank spec is going to take 7.9% (4 / 50.5) more damage than an IF build. The difference is significant and very noticeable in PVP.

 

By the same token, the damage that a non-IF spec takes from Elemental and Internal damage compared to an IF spec is > 4%.

 

I.e. non-IF in tank stance has 5% mitigation against those damage types, and IF has 9%. So 95 damage taken vs 91 damage taken, or an increase of 4.4%.

 

When you factor in the +10% mitigation buff from Sages (I think it's theirs), the gap between non-IF and IF tank specs widens to 4.9% (4 / 81).

 

And the above percentages again increase when you factor in the 4% damage debuff we apply to opponents with Ion Pulse and Explosive Surge.

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Watch the video:
| on my blog

 

Copy of the description for the video provided below.

 

Keep in mind that while the footage is from a 50 Vanguard, VG and Powertech are mirrors in terms of their mechanics and talent trees.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

This video covers my “Iron Fist” 25/14/2 PVP tank spec.

 

I designed the spec after discerning the limitations of the Defense (avoidance) and Shield (block) mechanics for tanks in PVP. Mitigation is king in SWTOR PVP. The two 2% mitigation talents and 5% mitigation from the tanking stance stack additively to provide 9% mitigation against all damage types (i.e. Elemental, Energy, Internal, and Kinetic) - you can see this by mousing over Damage Reduction on your Character window.

 

The 4-pc Tech set bonus, Flame Shield talent, and Flame Surge talent synergize to generate a high frequency of high-damage Rocket Punch crits.

 

Here is the spec used in the video:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301GRGozRroMZMcrroZb.1

 

The “Iron Fist” spec has been very effective for me in PVP, both group play and solo. It’s designed to support aggressive close-quarters combat gameplay: you can tank and burn down MDPS and pressure and shutdown casters and healers, while retaining Guard, charge, and debuff capability.

 

For more information about Powertech PVP, please refer to my free in-depth Guide.

 

I queued solo for the Huttball match shown in the video.

 

Comments / Errata:

  1. I had an incorrect Relic bound on my Quickslot bar. The point made in the video still stands: the level 50 Crit buff stacks with a Relic

To see me PVP’ing live, check out my TwitchTV channel. My stream features real-time commentary – and to the extent possible interaction with the Chat Room.

 

I always like watching you play, Taugrim, and I approve of this build. Not because of experience WITH the build, but because of its similarity to mine.

 

I rocked full 31/8/2 shieldtech spec for quite a while. I hated the lack of damage in PVP, but I got used to it. What I hated most was Heat Blast. It's virtually a free flameburst every 15 seconds. Frickadoodledoo! So I made a common-sense shift and changed my build to 30/11/0. I did this because I PVP and PVE as well, and I like to free up as much effort for my healer as possible. I've seen a huge benefit from just Retractable Blade in terms of damage increase, heal-suppression and defense (keeping players from capping turrets)

 

Your build is a very sensible shift given the fact that powertechs'/vanguards' shields have next to no use in PVP. I am simply not at liberty to give up my shieldchance for PVP.

 

One difference between your build and mine is that I did indeed grab the advanced cylinders, but I am considering switching that one point into advanced tools for the flamethrower and grapple cooldown in PVE and PVP respectively. I, however, agree fully with your points on damage decrease and so on.

 

Keep on rockin', Taugrim.

 

build I use: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301GRGozRrogZMsr0o.1 Little changes make a BIG difference :D (I call it the Hornet)

Edited by BlazingShadow
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One difference between your build and mine is that I did indeed grab the advanced cylinders, but I am considering switching that one point into advanced tools for the flamethrower and grapple cooldown in PVE and PVP respectively. I, however, agree fully with your points on damage decrease and so on.

 

Prototype Cylinders rocks with the two non-tanking stances, but it's not that effective for the tanking stance, as it's an 8% damage increase only for our tank stance proc.

 

I used to take in for tank specs but not any more.

 

PC needs to be buffed IMO for the tanking stance. What you get for 1 point pales in comparison to the Ion Overload and Supercharged Ion Gas talents, for example.

 

Keep on rockin', Taugrim

 

You too :)

Edited by taugrimtaugrim
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