Don't forget, premade also means stacking the odds in your favor with proper class composition and geared players. This is a HUGE advantage.

I don't think people would mind PUGing nearly as much if it meant they were guaranteed teammates all geared in war hero, with 2 healers, 2 tanks and 4 DPS, all playing FOTM class/specs. Unfortunately, that doesn't happen. That DOES happen in premade groups.

Just split the queues. There are far more potential solo queuers than premaders, people that premade will still solo queue even if they can't run in groups anymore because the games are going to be relatively even (or random at least). But people that queue solo won't continue to queue at a huge disadvantage, especially when the option of forming your own premade isn't always available to people for numerous reasons (not geared so others don't want you, not the right class/spec, they WILL take you but they themselves aren't geared/good etc).

I run premades, I solo queue, I do both. I would much rather have split queues.

With the exception of voice chat (which is a seperate issue I've mentioned before), the -only- difference between a good 4 man premade or 4 good pugs is a premade was grouped before the match.

Except, a premade gets to guarantee they get those 4 good players together in every game they play.

A PUG is playing the lottery, and very very likely to get screwed because the average player is not as good as a handpicked team of geared players with the right composition.

You can either continue to screw over PUG's, drive them away, and kill PvP (It's already heading that direction, queue times are starting to look like they did before the server merges), or you can put everyone at the same handicap with only solo queues available. And then the test would become how well you can work with what you're given, instead of your ability to make friends with a great group and then faceroll PUG's less geared with worse composition than you.

Don't forget, premade also means stacking the odds in your favor with proper class composition and geared players. This is a HUGE advantage.

 

....

 

I run premades, I solo queue, I do both. I would much rather have split queues.

Premade doesn't = Gear players. Likewise PuG doesn't = Recruit Gear. Gear and Gear gap is a seperate issue from premade vs. PuG. As for class composition, that is an acceptable/valid argument. Having a premade on your team does increase the chance of having atleast 1 healer and 1 tank.

Would you rather split queue's, or a flexible matchmaking system that matched premades to premades, PuG's to PuG's, or an equal mix of Premade+PuGs, with gradualy lessening balance per minute to keep queue times for both sides to a reasonable time? Not to mention this system would also cover the problem created by a split queue, which is incomplete group filling and backfilling.

Premade doesn't = Gear players. Likewise PuG doesn't = Recruit Gear. Gear and Gear gap is a seperate issue from premade vs. PuG.

It doesn't, but it does. I know for a fact that when I run premades, I group with my friends, who are all in augmented War Hero gear. I know most others do this as well. One of us wants to gear up an alt? That's fine, we carry them, we don't all hop on Recruit geared alts to queue. Not to mention, its more likely you meet people and start consistently grouping with them after you've already PvP'd for a while and gotten yourself some gear, you don't just get stomped next to a couple other Recruit geared guys and go, "Hey, lets group up and get stomped together!".

Would you rather split queue's, or a flexible matchmaking system that matched premades to premades, PuG's to PuG's, or an equal mix of Premade+PuGs, with gradualy lessening balance per minute to keep queue times for both sides to a reasonable time? Not to mention this system would also cover the problem created by a split queue, which is incomplete group filling and backfilling.

I'd rather split queues til we can get a flexible matchmaking system? Look at ranked and what a failure of a matchmaking system that is.

Just split the queues.

Except, a premade gets to guarantee they get those 4 good players together in every game they play.

 

A PUG is playing the lottery, and very very likely to get screwed because the average player is not as good as a handpicked team of geared players with the right composition.

You missed the point of what I said, so lemme try again. This was in response to the person saying PuG's -couldn't- fight at the same level as a Premade in terms of coordination.

Good strategies rarely change, and those who know them can use them even without practicing with a particular other person.

Focus'ing a healer is common sense, as is getting them away from a tank. If the fight is 4 of you to 2 of them, it should be pretty easy to guess where the other 6 are. Likewise, if you go to break from the fightt head to were those 6 are and someone else does so too, it shouldn't take words for one of you to decide to let the other go, and keep this fight 3 vs 2. Perhaps one of the more common problems is mezzing. You shouldn't need to communicate not to break someone's mezz. At the same time, you should know not to mezz if it is likely to be broken (aka, in the heat of a fight with aoe).

So yes, a Premade is more likely to get 4 good players (though there -are- bad premades) from fight to fight, but it is nonsense to say a PuG can not act with the same level of coordination and strategy as a good Premade, if the PuG's are actually good players.

It doesn't, but it does. I know for a fact that when I run premades, I group with my friends, who are all in augmented War Hero gear. I know most others do this as well. One of us wants to gear up an alt? That's fine, we carry them, we don't all hop on Recruit geared alts to queue. Not to mention, its more likely you meet people and start consistently grouping with them after you've already PvP'd for a while and gotten yourself some gear, you don't just get stomped next to a couple other Recruit geared guys and go, "Hey, lets group up and get stomped together!".

I'd say this is an unfounded generalization. Just as you usually premade with WH players, I usually premade with the first 3 people to respond in G chat. This yeilds a mix of gears, and generally either a healer or a tank but not always both. (I am a healer as needed).

I'd rather split queues til we can get a flexible matchmaking system? Look at ranked and what a failure of a matchmaking system that is.

That was not the question, the question was which would you prefer. I gather from your answer you'd prefer the matchmaking.

Just split the queues.

My question then, is what about backfilling? What about filling for incomplete (2-3) man groups? And if there aren't enough people in queue, is it really acceptable to have up to 15 people in either queue (16 needed for a match) sitting around with no pop indefinitely? (That's up to 30 people without a match)

If you're trying to build a "more fair system" it has to be "fair" to both sides, or all you've done is shifted the problem.

It doesn't have to be fair on both sides. They could remove the group queue entirely from the game and I guarantee you'd see more people queueing for warzones than you do currently. People that run premades will still queue without them.

Its a question of boosting overall warzone participation, not of making a "side" happy, considering most people do both already.

You missed the point of what I said, so lemme try again. This was in response to the person saying PuG's -couldn't- fight at the same level as a Premade in terms of coordination.

 

Good strategies rarely change, and those who know them can use them even without practicing with a particular other person.

 

Focus'ing a healer is common sense, as is getting them away from a tank. If the fight is 4 of you to 2 of them, it should be pretty easy to guess where the other 6 are. Likewise, if you go to break from the fightt head to were those 6 are and someone else does so too, it shouldn't take words for one of you to decide to let the other go, and keep this fight 3 vs 2. Perhaps one of the more common problems is mezzing. You shouldn't need to communicate not to break someone's mezz. At the same time, you should know not to mezz if it is likely to be broken (aka, in the heat of a fight with aoe).

 

So yes, a Premade is more likely to get 4 good players (though there -are- bad premades) from fight to fight, but it is nonsense to say a PuG can not act with the same level of coordination and strategy as a good Premade, if the PuG's are actually good players.

I didn't miss any point at all. If you handpick your team, they are going to be better than if its random. That is a fact. That's the reason you handpicked your team in the first place! I don't know how you can't get past this.

I guess your argument is, you had the ability to handpick your team too? Yeah, I did, except my friends that I normally queue with aren't online.

So, either we both wait til our friends are online and we can run our faceroll teams, faceroll pugs and maybe never even face each other, and kill queues... or, we can both just solo queue, see who we get, and probably play some pretty even matches.

As for your argument that your randomly group with 3 people in general chat? That's awesome! Guess what? Nobody else does this. Yeah, its a generalization, its also far closer to reality than your fairy tale land of everyone grouping with whoever responds first, which is more like PUGing than anything anyways.

I didn't miss any point at all. If you handpick your team, they are going to be better than if its random. That is a fact. That's the reason you handpicked your team in the first place! I don't know how you can't get past this.

Nope, you did.

I'm talking about -situational- events.

The statement was: "A PuG can not achieve the same coordination of a Premade."

My Reply is: "If it's 4 good PuG's with an understanding of group strategy, they do not need to be grouped before the match to work as well as a Premade."

I'm talking about a micro point as a counter argument to that persons statement, you are talking about the over all (macro) picture.

Nope, you did.

 

I'm talking about -situational- events.

 

The statement was: "A PuG can not achieve the same coordination of a Premade."

 

My Reply is: "If it's 4 good PuG's with an understanding of group strategy, they do not need to be grouped before the match to work as well as a Premade."

 

I'm talking about a micro point as a counter argument to that persons statement, you are talking about the over all (macro) picture.

But even then, you have to ask yourself, what's the more common occurence? Why do most people premade in the first place? I'd say 10-20% of it is, these are my buddies, lets do some warzones together. But 80% of it? Let's get 3 other people that know what they're doing, have some decent gear, and actually synergize with my class/spec so we can win.

Because people are competitive. They want to win. And they're going to use every advantage they can get. So just because a PUG can hit the lottery and get a good composition of good players in good gear that knows what they're doing, doesn't mean the premade vs PUG equation is balanced, it means you can get lucky.

I'm not saying take away premades or remove them from the solo queue to hand out wins to PUG's. That's silly. What I am saying is even out the playing field, and if matchmaking is too hard, then just split the queues. Because the same people who PUG also premade, we all play the same game.

Right now, I don't even bother queueing until I can put a good premade together. I play 4+ hours a day, and spend maybe an hour of it in warzones. If everyone were solo queued, I might queue the entire time I'm online some days. I'm willing to bet most of the people who premade share my sentiments regarding it.

Maybe you're different. You're that one guy who likes getting crushed in PUG's and feels everyone should lift themselves up to be better. Personally, I don't believe that's true, I know some people are just always going to be only "this" good, and that's OK. And as long as the queue is random, and I can get them on my team just like you can, they're going to still want to play. But if you and me team up because we don't want the average player on our team, and the average player is always stuck with other average players and being destroyed, the average player is going to stop playing.

It doesn't have to be fair on both sides. They could remove the group queue entirely from the game and I guarantee you'd see more people queueing for warzones than you do currently. People that run premades will still queue without them.

 

Its a question of boosting overall warzone participation, not of making a "side" happy, considering most people do both already.

Really? Have you never heard "I will not PvP without my friends?" How many people do you think BW would piss off/lose if there was no group queue option for regular warzones. Some player can -not- stand playing with random people, who 9 times out of 10 suck. (Hint, there are some people who despise having to pvp pre 50 for this very reason.)

If there is a problem, the solution has to benefit/punish both sides equally or all you've done is created a different imbalanced system.

As an example from history, the practice of discrimination in the workplace (towards minorities) was considered unfair. To rectify it, Affirmitive Action policies were placed, which had some positive effects. Unfortunately, they then created situations where less qualified minorities were given jobs over more qualified majorities creating a new unfairness. Both problems (discrimination and reverse-discrimination) exist today, because the major problems were not addressed immediately (education for all, education against racism, cultural change/tolerance, and fair evaluation for all).

Edit: As for the second topic we're discussing, I'm dropping it. You're still not understand I'm talking about a micro, theoritcal situation. "PuG's can't be as coordinated Premades" is like saying "Commando's can't be Mauraders." maybe 9/10 a commando will lose to a maurader, but a well played Commando can beat a Maurader depending on circumstances. That's all.

(On a side note, bed time. talk to ya tomorrow.)

This is a gear gap complaint and little else. If everyone would be honest.., no one is going complain about a group of 4 recruit/battlemaster geared players.

A social game is for social game play. If you don't want to play socially then it's probably not the game for you. I'm not being condescending, just stating the fact that those who don't want to play with others will always be at a disadvantage in MMOs. Complaining about that and asking for major game changes is counter productive.

If people want another tier of pvp based on another factor that's fine. But attacking the social aspect of an MMO is going the wrong direction.

Sorry to be so blunt Kir but you need to grow up. Many games have vastly improved with a simple system like I am proposing.

 

Do you really think there is any chance in hell BW will do split q's without cross server? Take rift for example (which was cross server at the time) when they first did premade matching it was pretty much a split q and pops took forever and a bunch of people quit (a lot of my pvp guild). Then they switched to a matchmaking system and eventually a mixed faction team system and pvp was a lot more fun again. Of course right after they killed pvp spec variability and dumbed the game down so it wasn't all great but the matchmaking system was much better than split q.

 

They won't do what you are proposing and even if they did it would be horrible. Be realistic!

You do know matchmaking is just another label for the same system right? Oh you probably knew that, that's why you are pushing for it.

Improved matchmaking still keeps the system that pushes new players away. Hey what happens if new players don't want to pvp?

Then you get longer queue times.

Then you don't get a healthy pvp community.

Then you don't get any potential groups forming.

So stop trying to label "matchmaking" as a option since it's just another term for the same problem.

moment they implement newbie single que brackets (like L 50 under 1100 expertiese), the moment I reitem my assassin to gank headless newbie pugs and make their life hard, oh the fun it shall bring.

I mean really. no one sees how it will be abused to make current 'not so bad not so good' system into total 'poop' ?

This is a gear gap complaint and little else. If everyone would be honest.., no one is going complain about a group of 4 recruit/battlemaster geared players.

 

A social game is for social game play. If you don't want to play socially then it's probably not the game for you. I'm not being condescending, just stating the fact that those who don't want to play with others will always be at a disadvantage in MMOs. Complaining about that and asking for major game changes is counter productive.

 

If people want another tier of pvp based on another factor that's fine. But attacking the social aspect of an MMO is going the wrong direction.

How is a group of random's joining a pvp match and meeting NEW people in pvp less social than a premade that runs with the SAME people over and over?

I guess as far a community building, that pug wins.

Which again proves that I'm right.

Want the facts? Then all you gotta do is log in the game.

"Hey join a ranked match"

"I can't"

"Why?"

"Noone is queueing QQ"

"So you admit ranked pvp is dieing due to lack of new blood coming into the pvp community?"

"Yes"

"How would you fix this?"

"Matchmaking"

"That sounds like a label for the same situation, oh wait it is! Do you have the code and/or are you a dev that knows the state of matchmaking first hand?"

"Well....no...derp"

"Thought so."

The end.

lol only thing killing regular warzones are the masses of bads.

i quote him cos he speaketh the truth.

moment they implement newbie single que brackets (like L 50 under 1100 expertiese), the moment I reitem my assassin to gank headless newbie pugs and make their life hard, oh the fun it shall bring.

 

I mean really. no one sees how it will be abused to make current 'not so bad not so good' system into total 'poop' ?

Because the current system isn't abused at all? I'm glad you accept trade winning and see nothing wrong with it.

i quote him cos he speaketh the truth.

You mean the premades that don't do ranked because it's easier to pug stomp? I totally agree, glad we are on the same page.

Because the current system isn't abused at all? I'm glad you accept trade winning and see nothing wrong with it.

I've never seen trade winning. You do it? Not good.

You can't fix if other team let's other one win.

How is a group of random's joining a pvp match and meeting NEW people in pvp less social than a premade that runs with the SAME people over and over?

Pretty obvious. Playing with friends, it's a social activity. As opposed to briefly being in the same warzone with people you've never met, won't speak to, and will likely not see again.

Solo-pugging isn't "meeting new people", if you're honest. It's playing alone (the clue is in the "solo" part). And the most common communication you'll see in a pug group is some variant of "*** are you all idiot NOOBZ!!??111", which neither encourages continuing friendly relationships nor winning warzones.

Not that I'm really down on pugging, most of the time I solo PUG. Often because there isn't anyone I want to group with on, but usually because I don't want to deal with other people.

That doesn't make other arguments about PUGs and whether they should have a separate queue, or improved matchmaking, invalid. But claiming they're more social (like claiming PUGs are more skilled), is obviously bogus. Your other arguments would be more convincing if, in your rush to refute every last thing your opponent says, you avoided the temptation to claim PUGs are superior in ways that anyone not actively self-deluding can see they are not.

Oooo look. Over a thousand posts now. A tribute to grim determination.

You mean the premades that don't do ranked because it's easier to pug stomp? I totally agree, glad we are on the same page.

I saw someone make a post yesterday and I will paraphrase it because it was fairly spot on.

I hear a big reason for solo players not wanting to find groups to do normal warzones or guilds for that matter is they have limited playing time. Well this is true for a lot of players. I may only get a few hours or no time to do PvP in general. Now if I have 3 other guildies/friends online great lets get a group going. I am not going to spend an hour or so waiting to get any group together for rateds of the most basic group comp (2 tanks 2 healers 4 dps of ANY class) let alone get an optimized group together because I could be waiting quite some time for that let alone hoping another team is queuing up. I have spent an hour waiting for a rated queue to pop and thats not fun.

moment they implement newbie single que brackets (like L 50 under 1100 expertiese), the moment I reitem my assassin to gank headless newbie pugs and make their life hard, oh the fun it shall bring.

 

I mean really. no one sees how it will be abused to make current 'not so bad not so good' system into total 'poop' ?

Yeah, you could but you might as well tatoo the words bully & loser across your head while your at it. Why would you enjoy a non competitive environment such as that anyway? To thump your chest in superiority? Thats lame.

Yeah, you could but you might as well tatoo the words bully & loser across your head while your at it. Why would you enjoy a non competitive environment such as that anyway? To thump your chest in superiority? Thats lame.

just for fun, giggle, to annoy some one. why not to?ranked is ranked, pugging is pugging. why go pvp? to kill people, for competition I can go ranked.

Interesting, how long Bioware will be continue ignoring community in this problem?

Maybe because they think its not an issue and unless they plan on introducing cross server queues separating groups and solo options would have a negative affect on queue times.