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Vaylin's End


EAFSAMWISE

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I've raised this question on other threads but I hope to focus exclusively on it here. After completing the 'Echoes of Oblivion" mission, I received a message from Senya telling me she felt that Vaylin would "never really be at peace," which means that unlike all the other spirits present in the mission, she didn't become one with the Force and her essence/spirit is still rattling around somewhere in the mind of the player/Outlander. Moreover during the recent briefing after "Spirit of Vengeance" called "Conflicting Priorities," Lana kept talking about how she and the Force Enclave were continuing to remain vigilant about whether Valkorion's spirit was still present. This paranoia indicates an uneasiness, which could simply mean nothing more, but could culminate in a discovery that Vaylin is still there and could potentially try to take over the Outlander's body. Her only reason before for teaming up with the Outlander was that she was convinced to take revenge on her father. It should be remembered that her father could use her as a weapon against the Outlander, and that he was genuinely afraid of her b/c of her considerable power in which she could potentially outdo him. Could this be an indication that her spirit will somehow come back and try to kill or steal the Outlander's body to live again, especially since her father isn't there as a major concern anymore?

 

Please share your thoughts

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After completing the 'Echoes of Oblivion" mission, I received a message from Senya telling me she felt that Vaylin would "never really be at peace," which means that unlike all the other spirits present in the mission, she didn't become one with the Force and her essence/spirit is still rattling around somewhere in the mind of the player/Outlander.

It might mean that, yes, but it might simply mean that Vaylin was always a tortured spirit (in the abstract "human spirit" sense rather than the Force-related sense), and sadly, Senya now realises that Vaylin wouldn't ever have been able to find peace at all.

 

In particular, it *doesn't* automatically mean that Vaylin's spirit is still in there. (There have been discussions about the red-head who went to the ship with Satele, and the way that Vaylin's "shade" looked at her, and whether that would mean that Vaylin tries to take that body.)

 

But ultimately, don't forget that EoO takes place in *Satele's* head, not the player's, so people we see there (except TVV, naturally) are, in essence, based on Satele's memories of them, not the player's direct experience.

Moreover during the recent briefing after "Spirit of Vengeance" called "Conflicting Priorities," Lana kept talking about how she and the Force Enclave were continuing to remain vigilant about whether Valkorion's spirit was still present. This paranoia indicates an uneasiness, which could simply mean nothing more, but could culminate in a discovery that Vaylin is still there and could potentially try to take over the Outlander's body.

I hope they don't go down that particular rat-hole. I'd like just once for dead people to, well, stay dead when we kill them. I think the paranoia really is exactly that - everybody's so tuned up to distrust anything about TVV that nobody can really quite believe that he's really finally gone.

 

(For reference: TVV ==> Tenebrae / Vitiate / Valkorion.)

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It might mean that, yes, but it might simply mean that Vaylin was always a tortured spirit (in the abstract "human spirit" sense rather than the Force-related sense), and sadly, Senya now realises that Vaylin wouldn't ever have been able to find peace at all.

 

In particular, it *doesn't* automatically mean that Vaylin's spirit is still in there. (There have been discussions about the red-head who went to the ship with Satele, and the way that Vaylin's "shade" looked at her, and whether that would mean that Vaylin tries to take that body.)

 

But ultimately, don't forget that EoO takes place in *Satele's* head, not the player's, so people we see there (except TVV, naturally) are, in essence, based on Satele's memories of them, not the player's direct experience.

 

I hope they don't go down that particular rat-hole. I'd like just once for dead people to, well, stay dead when we kill them. I think the paranoia really is exactly that - everybody's so tuned up to distrust anything about TVV that nobody can really quite believe that he's really finally gone.

 

(For reference: TVV ==> Tenebrae / Vitiate / Valkorion.)

 

I hope TVV is gone permanently as well, for the record. EoO itself was reaching somewhat and I felt they were trying to just find an excuse to bring him back and have some final "closure". I'm just saying I wonder if their worries are in some ways pointing to an eventual return of Vaylin who could be the real threat while TVV himself is actually gone. Also Satele Shan never met Vaylin herself, so the Vaylin we met in her head couldn't have been based simply off memories of her. She was powerful enough in the Force that she could've lived on, even TVV was wary of her.

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I hope TVV is gone permanently as well, for the record. EoO itself was reaching somewhat and I felt they were trying to just find an excuse to bring him back and have some final "closure". I'm just saying I wonder if their worries are in some ways pointing to an eventual return of Vaylin who could be the real threat while TVV himself is actually gone. Also Satele Shan never met Vaylin herself, so the Vaylin we met in her head couldn't have been based simply off memories of her. She was powerful enough in the Force that she could've lived on, even TVV was wary of her.

Satele *did* go to Zakuul, though (citation: what she says to you during KotFE Chapter XII), and would therefore have known *about* Vaylin, even if she never met her. But yes, Vaylin could have lived on as something like a Force ghost or Sith spirit-ghost thing.

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Satele *did* go to Zakuul, though (citation: what she says to you during KotFE Chapter XII), and would therefore have known *about* Vaylin, even if she never met her. But yes, Vaylin could have lived on as something like a Force ghost or Sith spirit-ghost thing.

 

Going by her comment about being dragged into the scenario by the Outlander I'm going to assume Vaylin was stuck inside the Outlander since the end of KOTET.

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Going by her comment about being dragged into the scenario by the Outlander I'm going to assume Vaylin was stuck inside the Outlander since the end of KOTET.

Hmm... OK. Fair comment. Well, possibly "bound to" in some way rather than actually "stuck inside", but that's neither here nor there.

 

I'm still inclined to suspect there may be more than just wishful thinking in the hypothesis about the redhead.

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Hmm... OK. Fair comment. Well, possibly "bound to" in some way rather than actually "stuck inside", but that's neither here nor there.

 

I'm still inclined to suspect there may be more than just wishful thinking in the hypothesis about the redhead.

 

Yeah i'm going with a force bond of some type however that /flirt option that pops up give me the idea that she will always be herself, maybe, just maybe, a redemption happens though?

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Hmm... OK. Fair comment. Well, possibly "bound to" in some way rather than actually "stuck inside", but that's neither here nor there.

 

I'm still inclined to suspect there may be more than just wishful thinking in the hypothesis about the redhead.

 

I would agree that the theory about her stealing the redhead's body is most likely wishful thinking. My main point is that Vaylin will either finally come to peace somehow and be one with the Force or will attempt to take over the Outlander's body and be destroyed like her father was. Either way I'm convinced we haven't seen the last of her yet, especially after the email from Senya and also how paranoid the force enclave is becoming in Valkorion's absence, I would argue there's high potential for this foreshadowing another showdown with Vaylin on her own terms without her father or anyone else being an issue so it will be interesting if that happens.

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I would agree that the theory about her stealing the redhead's body is most likely wishful thinking.

Um. That's not what I said. I said that it may be more than just wishful thinking. Put it another way, this may be one of those times where wishful thinking turns out to be accurate, and I'm progressively more inclined to think that it is.

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Um. That's not what I said. I said that it may be more than just wishful thinking. Put it another way, this may be one of those times where wishful thinking turns out to be accurate, and I'm progressively more inclined to think that it is.

 

Okay so what's your reasoning for this plausibility that Vaylin will steal someone else's body? I'm curious to hear why it'd be the redhead specifically

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Okay so what's your reasoning for this plausibility that Vaylin will steal someone else's body? I'm curious to hear why it'd be the redhead specifically

Watch the cut-scenes carefully, where at one point:

 

The redhead is lying apparently dead, and the image / memory / spirit of Vaylin (whatever the form she's in) looks over at the apparent corpse.

 

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Okay so what's your reasoning for this plausibility that Vaylin will steal someone else's body? I'm curious to hear why it'd be the redhead specifically

 

Kira establishes before you enter the mindscape that two of the students are dead. During the fight in the temple, we see four of the students get up while two (including the red head) remain on the ground. Vaylin looks at the red head who is on the ground. Fast forward to the final scene where we see the red head walking away from Satele clearly having gotten better from her terminal case of death.

 

Later on you even get a mail from Satele where she establishes that Syl, one of the two students mentioned by Kira as being dead, has miraculous been returned to them by the Force while the other, Trad, is still dead. Thus, the red head is Syl and the game is trying very hard to make clear that she was revived from the dead somehow as it has established her death three times and her being alive twice.

 

The fact that Vaylin was the only person giving any attention to Syl in the mindscape is clearly supposed to establish that she was involved in the resurrection. And well Vaylin is not the sort of person to heal someone out of the kindness of her heart.

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Kira establishes before you enter the mindscape that two of the students are dead. During the fight in the temple, we see four of the students get up while two (including the red head) remain on the ground. Vaylin looks at the red head who is on the ground. Fast forward to the final scene where we see the red head walking away from Satele clearly having gotten better from her terminal case of death.

 

Later on you even get a mail from Satele where she establishes that Syl, one of the two students mentioned by Kira as being dead, has miraculous been returned to them by the Force while the other, Trad, is still dead. Thus, the red head is Syl and the game is trying very hard to make clear that she was revived from the dead somehow as it has established her death three times and her being alive twice.

 

The fact that Vaylin was the only person giving any attention to Syl in the mindscape is clearly supposed to establish that she was involved in the resurrection. And well Vaylin is not the sort of person to heal someone out of the kindness of her heart.

 

Interesting and definitely a good theory. Perhaps they're sharing a body? It could be that Vaylin is manipulating her and so Syl possibly has this "you left me for dead so I want revenge" attitude, similar to Lord Vivicar and Terrak Morrhage I'm the Consular story.

Edited by EAFSAMWISE
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  • 2 weeks later...
If the Vaylin boss fight were to be changed, what would be better than "just run around a lot"? My take on it would be that (based on what class you are) you fight her in a copy of whichever starting zone you had, and counter her power with your imagination. Edited by ChandrilaDeler
Typo fix.
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I believe Vaylin has definitely possessed the body of Satele's student. I'm extremely confident that we will be seeing her again, especially in light of the email Senya sends where she is worried that Vaylin's spirit will never rest.

 

My question is what exactly they are going to try to do with this development. There is precedent for a Force Ghost possessing the living, such as Terack Morrhage, but if Satele's student is dead, are they trying to suggest she could permanently replace her spirit and suddenly have a new body? That doesn't really make sense to me.

 

One would imagine that a Force Ghost possessing the body of a dead Jedi is unnatural, and would not be a permanent solution. I think a body hoping story for Vaylin's ghost would be interesting.

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