I think that's a fair question, and honestly Vhaegrant it's not an easy one to answer, but I will try.

And, I thank you for taking the time to answer

I'm going to break down your answer, not to try and convert you , but because I'm surprised at how similar both our sense of meaning of class seems to be.

When i create a character I look at all the classes. Read the role, choose the name, the look. When I start playing, the uniqueness and role I chose is readily apparent.

I'm very similar in this aspect, it can take me a long time to settle down with a character as it is very important to me, especially in SWTOR where there is such a focus on cinematics and voice acting to get the character 'feeling' right (I hate to think how many characters I've deleted because they just didn't look right with their voices)

I FEEL like a trooper, or a warrior. I don't know how to explain it exactly, only to say that the roles we choose in the beginning of the game are unique enough (though the sith and jedi are a bit muddled Ill admit) that I can say I am "living my choice". I am a trooper, CLEARLY not a warrior, or visa versa. It feels as if the choice I have made is real and substantial.

Again, pretty much the same stance, except that I never feel the role as defined purely by abilities governs quite how much attachment I have with the character. It is nearly all to do with their original appearance, gear worn and the story choices I have made.

Then we go to AC. I am still the original class, have similar abilities, but now I have a few more. It feels like a spec...not a class. I do not get "engaged", as a warrior, I do not feel that different as a juggernaut than my marauder brothers, other than weapons and some abilities....it just feels like a spec holder, nothing more.

On feeling it is a stage of specialisation we are on complete agreement. However, I feel there is a difference that becomes more and more apparent as you start to invest in the training trees and optimise the role. It's one of the reasons I rail against calling 'Advanced Class' a 'Class' in its own right, it just feels like the first stage of specialisation.

I don't feel invested in the class. I am invested in being a warrior, but what is special about my juggernaut? Where are his special missions? Where is his storyline? It seems like i'm choosing a training choice as a warrior, not becoming a juggernaut.

Again, I feel exactly the same. The difference stems only from the abilities gained and not from the theme of the class or advanced class. About the only point in the whole game where there seems to be any attempt to put in an appearance difference in gear was at the Legacy vendors and let's be honest is there any one that pays that sort of price for Orange gear that's not adaptive?

This is the reason I would not be in favour of a Class swap as the themes are so disparate. But, the segregation of abilities into two stages of specialisation just feels like a game mechanic to retain balance and prevent overly beneficial synergies developing.

I don't know if that explains it properly.

I can appreciate where you are coming from a lot better. I'm still a little confused as to how we can agree on the aspect of theme and how integral it is to feeling you are engaging with the game. And yet seem to be on opposite sides of the argument

 

Underpinning my willingness to see an AC swap introduced is that I see both stages of specialisation, the selection of an AC and the final selection of a role, to be dependent on character training and equipment and not a change to their over-arcing theme.

Whether I play as a Shield Tech or a Pyrotech the character is still ultimately a Bounty Hunter in theme.

 

Should certain Classes have sole access to certain abilities and equipment is another issue. While it helps to reinforce the theme it severely limits the ability of a player to make a character of their liking.

 

A darkside consular would feel much more grounded if they had the option to use lightning attacks.

A lightside Bounty Hunter should be against the use of flame thrower attacks (most nations have withdrawn them from active use).

A Bounty Hunter that is trying to reconnect with a lost Mandalorian heritage would be more convincing using a melee weapon.

An undercover Marksman would find more use out of using two blast pistols or a blaster rifle than trying to carry around a long barrelled sniper rifle.

 

If SWTOR lasts the distance I sincerely hope they expand upon the existing AC choices, through introducing new ACs with fresh animations (and recycling those of other ACs), and allowing the ability to retrain, not just at the last stage of role selection but also at that intermediate stage of AC choice.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Vhaegrant

Understand, if it was the will of the majority I would adapt. It's not like it would kill me, because frankly the way I perceive ACs at the moment does not kill me. They are not as meaningful as they should be, IMO right now, so if they had even less meaning by allowing AC swapping that would not destroy me.

 

It would disappoint me. But that's me. I dont rail against the idea, I just pose that I would personally prefer to see MORE meaning in ACs, not less. In a perfect world......

 

Base classes would not longer exist. The class you would choose at character creation would be the current AC. Then, you would "train" up as a lower class, IE warrior or trooper, until you "graduate" to be your class.

 

The stories would all be altered, regardless of cost, to incorporate this into the storyline in some way...from that point forward you would be treated like a Vanguard or Sorcerer. And as that class you would have FOUR specs to choose from....tank, heal, dps or hybrid. You would be required to spec up a certain amount in one tree before you could unlock the hybrid tree.

 

You would be free to spec as a tank, tank hybrid, dps, dps hybrid, heal or heal hybrid. And you could save your spec and UI loadout and swap between them on a whim...at a cost of course.

 

The reason I would not mind the swap then is because you remain your class.....you are simply swapping your role. And all roles would be available to all classes.

 

Instead of designing classes to be balanced, I would have designed them to be UNBALANCED, using a rock/paper/scissors approach. You would have one class you would dominate, one you would have difficulty against, and the others you would be about equal.

 

THIS truly would have made PVP interesting and challenging IMO. AND would have made your classes truly unique.

 

I might have even had true mirrors, like making troopers for both sides (stormtroopers), and giving the republic "marshals" for BH. Perhaps "officers" as a counter to agents.

 

At any rate, I find the class design in this game very disappointing. So much potential wasted.

The reason I would not mind the swap then is because you remain your class.....you are simply swapping your role. And all roles would be available to all classes.

I find this sentence interesting. Not least because it seems to describe the current system if you called 'Advanced Class' something else.

 

You choose a Class, you have a point at which you can hybridise, you have full access to all roles on one character, role swapping carries some element of cost.

 

Reading between the lines, more than anything what you want is more story and more meaningful choices within that story. I certainly won't disagree that much of the 'meaningful choices' present in previous Bioware games like Dragonage: Origins was sacrificed to serve the needs of the MMO environment where apparently 'balance' is key.

 

Personally, I would have gone with a factionless game (pretty much what we have anyway with the original collapse in server populations meaning cross faction trading on all GTNs and Warzones that feature same faction 'training' missions.)

The same care and attention Bioware have for story telling and cinematics would have been locked into an open reputation system where various Groups offer quests depending on your reputation standing with them. Accepting high rep quests from an Imperial group would lower your rep with Republic groups.

A character finds out they are force sensitive and goes to Tython to receive training as their reputation increases they are able to learn better abilities, however should their darkside rating rise too high it triggers a quest chain that leads them over to the Empire.

An open system would also make it easier to drop additional content into any area of the game not just the continual raising of the level cap and endgame rush.

I find this sentence interesting. Not least because it seems to describe the current system if you called 'Advanced Class' something else.

 

You choose a Class, you have a point at which you can hybridise, you have full access to all roles on one character, role swapping carries some element of cost.

 

Reading between the lines, more than anything what you want is more story and more meaningful choices within that story. I certainly won't disagree that much of the 'meaningful choices' present in previous Bioware games like Dragonage: Origins was sacrificed to serve the needs of the MMO environment where apparently 'balance' is key.

 

Personally, I would have gone with a factionless game (pretty much what we have anyway with the original collapse in server populations meaning cross faction trading on all GTNs and Warzones that feature same faction 'training' missions.)

The same care and attention Bioware have for story telling and cinematics would have been locked into an open reputation system where various Groups offer quests depending on your reputation standing with them. Accepting high rep quests from an Imperial group would lower your rep with Republic groups.

A character finds out they are force sensitive and goes to Tython to receive training as their reputation increases they are able to learn better abilities, however should their darkside rating rise too high it triggers a quest chain that leads them over to the Empire.

An open system would also make it easier to drop additional content into any area of the game not just the continual raising of the level cap and endgame rush.

 

That's how it was done in SWG, and somewhat the way rep works in WoW. I think it would have been better, certainly to "choose a side" that way. And, naturally, you could have also "switched" sides that way.

 

The main storyline would have to be generic (they had plenty of side quests for that) with specific factional storylines you would engage in once your faction reached a certain point.

 

Like I said...potential lost. It really is a shame IMO.

That's how it was done in SWG, and somewhat the way rep works in WoW. I think it would have been better, certainly to "choose a side" that way. And, naturally, you could have also "switched" sides that way.

 

The main storyline would have to be generic (they had plenty of side quests for that) with specific factional storylines you would engage in once your faction reached a certain point.

 

Like I said...potential lost. It really is a shame IMO.

I don't think you would have had to be too generic on the main quest. Each planet could have been centered on a theme that combined elements of all the existing class stories. Look how prevalent the 'weapons of mass destruction' theme is anyway. Quests available to all characters could have had different reputation rewards depending upon how you chose to resolve them.

Destroy the schematics for a WMD = loss of Reputation to Imperial and Republic groups, boost to lightside.

Give WMD schematics to Republic = loss of reputation to Imperial, gain of reputation to Republic, boost to darkside.

Give WMD schematics to Imperial = loss of reputation to Republic, gain of reputation to Imperial, large boost to darkside.

Give WMD scematics to third party (eg Hutts) = loss of reputation to Republic, gain of reputation to Hutt, large boost to darkside.

 

I think darkside/lightside was poorly implemented as well. Willfull slaughter of people just doing their job should be frowned upon by the Lightside. Instead SWTOR allows you to kill as many grunts as you want, but when it gets to the general that gave them orders if you choose to kill them it's suddenly darkside !? Maybe associating a darkside cost for every non-essential combat fatality.

 

And, you could have separated out companion quests. Treated them as individuals that any character had the potential to acquire but perhaps reflected association on the darkside/lightside rating.

 

Would Mako willingly aid a darkside Bounty Hunter or seek to under mine them?

A trueblood Sith Warrior could chose a ships crew that reflected their intolerance on alien species (just Quin, Talos, Pierce, Jaesa and Andronikus)

 

Yes much potential. Maybe a future game might be able to bring similar elements together but alas I doubt it will have an IP I'm interested in

Edited July 25, 2014 by Vhaegrant

Instead of designing classes to be balanced, I would have designed them to be UNBALANCED, using a rock/paper/scissors approach. You would have one class you would dominate, one you would have difficulty against, and the others you would be about equal.

 

THIS truly would have made PVP interesting and challenging IMO. AND would have made your classes truly unique.

The only balanced PvP is FPS as everyone has the same HP pool and can have access to the same gear.

 

Then totally agree unbalanced classes is the way to go, still then everyone should be able to totally rescpec his character class, skill gear for PVP.

I support advanced class switch and hope it comes soon. It can work like a rename with 1 month cooldown.

Oh my GOD you did not resurrect this thread!!!!

 

lol

 

Just kidding. I knew this thread would rear it's ugly head at some point.

Whelp... guess its time for this thread to come back again and for the pointless debate to go on.... and on.... and on.... and on...

 

 

Seriously, both sides of the argument have been done to death. At this point, it isn't even beating a dead horse. It's smashing it's bones into dust.

Oh, i don't want to debate on the points. I support AC change is all.

Besides am sure sensible player will not do HM's as first thing after switching AC.

Oh, i don't want to debate on the points. I support AC change is all.

Besides am sure sensible player will not do HM's as first thing after switching AC.

 

And I don't support it so we are back to where we were before the necro. And since when do you see sensible players in PUGs?

And I don't support it so we are back to where we were before the necro. And since when do you see sensible players in PUGs?

 

Well then it wont matter if there is AC switch right. People who want to be a pain can do that even now without having to spend CC for it.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Jaxtes

Right now I am more intent on pushing for a UI and Spec loadout save and swap then anything else. I am still not supportive of an AC swap option, and would actually like to see ACs be more meaningful, not less.

 

But that is just a personal view. I will not deride others for feeling differently.

Well then it wont matter if there is AC switch right. People who want to be a pain can do that even now without having to spend CC for it.

 

Its not that they want to be a pain, its that they happen to do so without even trying. Adding additional ways for stupid people to mess up PUGs is a bad idea.

Right now I am more intent on pushing for a UI and Spec loadout save and swap then anything else. I am still not supportive of an AC swap option, and would actually like to see ACs be more meaningful, not less.

 

But that is just a personal view. I will not deride others for feeling differently.

 

Agreed if AC where more meaningful it would be interesting, but i don't think Bioware will be doing that that is why i gave up on more class stories

Even if they make them more distinct allowing switch at 55 before they do it sounds reasonable to me.

 

Besides if people are 100% sure that AC change will ruin Game/PUG's for them then i cannot comment on that as i have never been that certain about any results a change can bring.

Hmm now I'm confused Luke used a Blue lightsaber which is after all a knight.... But woah in RotJ he uses a Green one!?! That just messed it all up... if they are going to put effort into an AC swap wouldn't it be easier just to open a spec tree at level 10 and between three spec lines determine upon spec for your AC?? As it stands every AC has multiple DPS tress, simple solution is each tree would decide role.... Heals, tank, dps.. Done..

Heal, Tank, DPS and hybrid trees in a perfect world IMO, with a requirement to go up one tree a certain amount before you can assign points in the hybrid tree if you wish.

 

Then, the trees would be more meaningful IMO, and also provide maximum flexibility.

As it stands every AC has multiple DPS tress, simple solution is each tree would decide role.... Heals, tank, dps.. Done..

 

First if they did this it would be free a cartel market consumable will bring in more cash for EA/Bioware.

Adding the different play styles to each AC or removing AC entirely by reworking the skill tree will be more work than AC swap i think.

Doing this will make the problem HelinCarnate and others bring more pronounced as more people will do it rather than just those willing to pay the money for it.

Hmm now I'm confused Luke used a Blue lightsaber which is after all a knight.... But woah in RotJ he uses a Green one!?! That just messed it all up... if they are going to put effort into an AC swap wouldn't it be easier just to open a spec tree at level 10 and between three spec lines determine upon spec for your AC?? As it stands every AC has multiple DPS tress, simple solution is each tree would decide role.... Heals, tank, dps.. Done..

 

There's a reason why Shadow/Assassin tanks lost their self heal...

 

Luke used green lightsaber in ep6 because he had to build a new lightsaber. Someone didn't pay attention to story!

There's a reason why Shadow/Assassin tanks lost their self heal...

 

Luke used green lightsaber in ep6 because he had to build a new lightsaber. Someone didn't pay attention to story!

 

I'm not saying give tanks a heal what I am saying tank one tree, dps assasin is middle, and sorc is third. Either way a total AC swap eh just reroll it's not like you can't get to cap in two weeks of minimal play time... Use your old 55 to farm the lower heroics to gear your new character to beast mode!

 

I realize Luke built his own but it's also the reason there should of been a mini series for shadows of the empire

I'm not saying give tanks a heal what I am saying tank one tree, dps assasin is middle, and sorc is third. Either way a total AC swap eh just reroll it's not like you can't get to cap in two weeks of minimal play time... Use your old 55 to farm the lower heroics to gear your new character to beast mode!

 

You can "solo" heroics... It's not a problem as tank. Even my dps Operative can solo H2+s. Healer? That's cheating! It's all about knowing your class and trying to use all your abilities.

 

should of

 

Should have

Edited September 11, 2014 by Halinalle

Well, the way I suggested they should set it up would be like this....

 

Tank >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Healer>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

DPS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hybrid>>>

 

The idea would be that you would have to spec to a certain point in a specific tree, and then you could choose to spec the rest of the way in Hybrid. It would unlock at that point.

 

You could not mix and match....your choices would be pure tank, healer or DPS or tank-hybrid, healer-hybrid, DPS-hybrid. The abilities offered in the hybrid tree would be supplemental but neutral abilities that could benefit all three trees with a mix of tank, healing and DPS abilities. So a tank could choose a small bit of healing and some DPS, or a healer could increase armor and have a bit of a DPS boost.

 

It would actually fit into the detached way it is done now, with different specs offering the same kinds of bonuses to current ACs, but it would be more organized and encourage pure builds.

 

PLUS it would allow a player to respec into a different roll as they wish. This way any base class could fill any roll.

 

Choosing tank would lock down the other three trees, and only Hybrid would unlock when you reach a certain point.

Edited September 11, 2014 by LordArtemis

Well, the way I suggested they should set it up would be like this....

 

Tank >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Healer>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

DPS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hybrid>>>

 

The idea would be that you would have to spec to a certain point in a specific tree, and then you could choose to spec the rest of the way in Hybrid. It would unlock at that point.

 

You could not mix and match....your choices would be pure tank, healer or DPS or tank-hybrid, healer-hybrid, DPS-hybrid. The abilities offered in the hybrid tree would be supplemental but neutral abilities that could benefit all three trees with a mix of tank, healing and DPS abilities. So a tank could choose a small bit of healing and some DPS, or a healer could increase armor and have a bit of a DPS boost.

 

It would actually fit into the detached way it is done now, with different specs offering the same kinds of bonuses to current ACs, but it would be more organized and encourage pure builds.

 

PLUS it would allow a player to respec into a different roll as they wish. This way any base class could fill any roll.

 

Choosing tank would lock down the other three trees, and only Hybrid would unlock when you reach a certain point.

 

I fail to see how the above differs in any significant way from an Advanced Class swap.

 

At the core of the issue seems to be the need to define 'meaningful' choices to the AC name.

 

In your proposed system a Mercenary would have access to Tank, DPS, Heal and hybrid roles and the ability to respec between them. Just as a Powertech would have access to Tank, DPS, Heal and hybrid roles. The distinction being made by the associated animations for abilities. The two Advanced Classes are still indistinguishable in terms of story content and companions.

 

In the AC swap system a Bounty Hunter would have access to Tank, DPS and Heal roles (no Hybrids though as the AC effectively keeps core tanking and healing abilities away from each other, a good design choice imho) with the ability to respec between them.

 

 

Oh, and nice to see the topic resurrected

Edited September 11, 2014 by Vhaegrant

Not sure how this post keeps getting resurrected lol.

 

I'm not reading all the pages to see if anyone has said this, but here's why there is NOT an advanced class change (IMO).

 

Each of the 8 Advanced Classes are considered a unique Class of its own. Having a Marauder and wanting to change to a Juggernaut in SWTOR would be like wanting to change from a Druid to a Warrior in WoW. The classes are unique. They have different abilities, different armor, different achievements.

 

Granted every Marauder and Juggernaut start off as the same Warrior class, but around level 10 when you choose your Advanced Class, there a nice box that pops up and tells you the choice is PERMANENT.

 

Leveling doesn't take long in this game, and it's far more enjoyable than other games. Just level another toon.

 

An advanced class change wouldn't be good enough. There would be people crying about their armor being unusable because its healing gear and they class changed to a tank. People would complain about their achievements for the class they changed from being reset (assuming BW would, and should IMO, do that). And I bet there would even be people crying about how they don't like the class they changed to and want to go back for free. Guaranteed.

 

Just reroll another character. Jeez.

Not sure how this post keeps getting resurrected lol.

An advanced class change wouldn't be good enough. There would be people crying about their armor being unusable because its healing gear and they class changed to a tank. People would complain about their achievements for the class they changed from being reset (assuming BW would, and should IMO, do that). And I bet there would even be people crying about how they don't like the class they changed to and want to go back for free. Guaranteed.

 

Just reroll another character. Jeez.

 

Am pretty sure people who want to change class will be aware of it. At higher levels only idiots will switch from Healer to Tank without knowing stats requires are different. At lower levels the gear can be easily replaced without much trouble.

 

With adaptive armor becoming more common people can keep their looks. Besides Mara and Jugg are the only AC with different armor class.