So, there are various "paradigms" for melee in PvP combat. For example, we've got:

 

1. High passive defenses and low damage output. The low damage output is usually compensated for by utility (e.g. stuns, guard & taunts).
   
2. High damage output, low passive defenses & "get out of dodge mechanics" (i.e. stealth).
   
3. High damage output, low passive defenses & defensive cooldowns.
   
4. Medium passive defenses and high damage output.
   

In the context of SW:TOR Assassin & Operative damage dealers clearly fit in to the type two paradigm. Marauders are somewhere between type two and three. Juggernaut damage dealers are type four. Juggernaut tanks are type one (arguably tankasins are as well - I don't know if I would call the damage output low though).

 

The job of a type two meleers is to carefully pick their fights, picking out important and/or squishy targets, get a quick killl on these targets and then "get out of dodge" (e.g. Force Cloak). Getting involved in large fights without "getting out of dodge" will result in the meleer getting killed quickly.

 

I can't help but feel this paradigm is flawed in the current state of SW:TOR in that:

1. Warfronts revolve around choke points, such as turrets, doors and Hutballs. Type two meleers get involved in situations where they should ideally "get out of dodge" often, however, cannot due to long cooldowns.
   
2. The time to run back after a respawn is relatively small, meaning that the time it takes an Assassin to "get out of dodge" and heal back up is often very similar to the respawn time. Therefore, there is very little difference between "getting out of dodge" & dying.
   
3. There is very limited scope to pick and choose targets. When someone is attacking a turret/door you are forced to stop them.
   

Before the resident trolls start going on about "u just whine cuz ur bad, l2p"; I do well on my Assassin, I generally win more Warfronts than I lose and I win most 1v1 fights* (if I happen to get involved in them). What I am not saying is we're bad in a 1v1 or even 2v2 situation, we're in a good place there.

 

What I am saying is that with larger fights being common in PvP, we need a few more opportunities to "get out of dodge" or (if BW doesn't want that) our paradigm needs to shift to be more type three and less type two.

 

*Not claiming I am particularly skilled here, most people I fight are just awful.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Haldern

I feel ya man. I'm a deception 'sin and most of the time I'm scoping out my prey and while everyone else is getting slaughtered I have to sit back and be patient.

 

 

I will pop out of stealth as long as my force cloak is off cool down, but if it isn't then I have to be extremely choosey.

 

 

 

I do awesome work once I find someone by theirselves guarding a turret or a healer off to the side but, it's not enough sustained productivity.

 

On my other toon (a tank), I'm in everyone's face and feel very productive through out the match. Not so much on my 'sin.

 

 

Not sure what constructive criticism I could offer because I feel the assassin is just one ability away from being OP imo.

 

 

Hopefully we can find something that would allow us to have consistent production through out these matches.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Draeb

So, there are various "paradigms" for melee in PvP combat. For example, we've got:

 

1. High passive defenses and low damage output. The low damage output is usually compensated for by utility (e.g. stuns, guard & taunts).
   
2. High damage output, low passive defenses & "get out of dodge mechanics" (i.e. stealth).
   
3. High damage output, low passive defenses & defensive cooldowns.
   
4. Medium passive defenses and high damage output.
   

In the context of SW:TOR Assassin & Operative damage dealers clearly fit in to the type two paradigm. Marauders are somewhere between type two and three. Juggernaut damage dealers are type four. Juggernaut tanks are type one (arguably tankasins are as well - I don't know if I would call the damage output low though).

 

The job of a type two meleers is to carefully pick their fights, picking out important and/or squishy targets, get a quick killl on these targets and then "get out of dodge" (e.g. Force Cloak). Getting involved in large fights without "getting out of dodge" will result in the meleer getting killed quickly.

 

I can't help but feel this paradigm is flawed in the current state of SW:TOR in that:

1. Warfronts revolve around choke points, such as turrets, doors and Hutballs. Type two meleers get involved in situations where they should ideally "get out of dodge" often, however, cannot due to long cooldowns.
   
2. The time to run back after a respawn is relatively small, meaning that the time it takes an Assassin to "get out of dodge" and heal back up is often very similar to the respawn time. Therefore, there is very little difference between "getting out of dodge" & dying.
   
3. There is very limited scope to pick and choose targets. When someone is attacking a turret/door you are forced to stop them.
   

Before the resident trolls start going on about "u just whine cuz ur bad, l2p"; I do well on my Assassin, I generally win more Warfronts than I lose and I win most 1v1 fights* (if I happen to get involved in them). What I am not saying is we're bad in a 1v1 or even 2v2 situation, we're in a good place there.

 

What I am saying is that with larger fights being common in PvP, we need a few more opportunities to "get out of dodge" or (if BW doesn't want that) our paradigm needs to shift to be more type three and less type two.

 

*Not claiming I am particularly skilled here, most people I fight are just awful.

 

They need there def cd's / survivability buffed at minimum, weaksauce.

Im not so sure about buffing our survivability, I think that would throw us into the "OP" consideration. But I certainly agree with shorter cool-downs on force cloak to at least give us a chance to survive and with force shroud only lasting a few seconds a shorter cool-down wouldn't hurt there either. I hope nobody thinks force cloak is would be "OP" on shorter cool-down because it wouldn't be....if we have to force cloak and seethe....were effectively taken out of the fight for a good 15-20 seconds.

Im not so sure about buffing our survivability, I think that would throw us into the "OP" consideration. But I certainly agree with shorter cool-downs on force cloak to at least give us a chance to survive and with force shroud only lasting a few seconds a shorter cool-down wouldn't hurt there either. I hope nobody thinks force cloak is would be "OP" on shorter cool-down because it wouldn't be....if we have to force cloak and seethe....were effectively taken out of the fight for a good 15-20 seconds.

 

 

 

And it's also multiple times a match so it can start to add up.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Draeb

Start playing madness, get good at it, then come back to this thread.

For madness Assassins

 

static discharge should have a 30yard range, and parasitism should do more healing.

Start playing madness, get good at it, then come back to this thread.

 

This. Madness is an awesome spec for warzones. Though you need to practice it. I did all the dailies a few days as madness to get a feel for the spec before using it in warzones. And now I rock as Madness. It's nowhere near as squishy as Deception.

Is an amazing spec, you can accomplish so much with it if you exploit it to full potency. All those dps Darkness and hybrids are a no challenge for a good madness sin. You simply ruin everyone day just playing for the team and objectives. High damage - all single target, great utility and versatility, NO PROBLEMS with force at all, ever, you don't wait to regen to use abilities, 2 very good internal dmg sources for those heavy armor / tanky stuff, very good melee for light and medium armor (as long with rest of kinetic dots).

 

Couple advices: don't use reck with crushing darkness, best to death field and shock. Don't open with spike unles you absolutely need to CC multiple oponents to save someone (ie: spike one, stun another, instant whirlwind 3rd, creeping terror 4th etc). And lastly, learn your versatility, you DO NOT need to be in someone face non stop to do damage or keep pressure, if you try to play it like deception you will underperform.

Is an amazing spec, you can accomplish so much with it if you exploit it to full potency. All those dps Darkness and hybrids are a no challenge for a good madness sin. You simply ruin everyone day just playing for the team and objectives. High damage - all single target, great utility and versatility, NO PROBLEMS with force at all, ever, you don't wait to regen to use abilities, 2 very good internal dmg sources for those heavy armor / tanky stuff, very good melee for light and medium armor (as long with rest of kinetic dots).

 

The issue here is not really about damage or utility, it's about survivability in situations where there is large amounts of burst. Which happens a lot in Warzones and is unavoidable.

 

The other class I play is (Annihilation) Marauder, which is quite similar to Madness Assassin in many ways (both good burst melee specs, self healing, dots, internal damage).

 

Post 1.2 I think Marauder will be in a good place balance-wise (some buffs & some nerfs), however, if you compare (Annihilation) Marauder to Madness Assassin the survivability is like night and day.

 

Sure, I don't have stealth but I do have Force Cammo, which "gets me out of dodge" in Warzones nearly as much as Force Cloak, and has a 45 second cooldown versus a 3 minute cooldown. Additionally, Marauders have many more survivability cooldowns. Survivability cooldowns scale with the number of people hitting you, CC doesn't.

 

Deception/madness aren't extremly underpowered. What I am saying is deception could do with something like:

 

Your assassinate has a 30% chance to reset the cooldown of your Force Cloak.

OR

Your assassinate lowers the cooldown of your Force Cloak by 30 seconds.

 

And madness possibly a bit more self healing or another survivability cooldown (or just low cds on existing cooldowns).

i actually enjoy deception. I usually follow a rotation, cloak-spike-vs-vs-cast wrecklesness-discharge-shock-cc if needed-assasinate. Works well for me, and to be honest this being my first MMO i understand my role and am very good at it. I find it more fun than any other class. I usually end up with at least 7 medals min. per WZ because on top of being DPS i utilize guard when needed. I think people just need to stop complaining because if it doesn't work for you than it clearly doesn't work for you...but that doesn't mean its not working for everyone

Go full madness/dark, deception is worthless

Go full madness/dark, deception is worthless

 

Troll much?

 

Deception is fine, it's just not overly powerful and possibly a bit on the squishy side for warzone play.

Madness is a perfectly fine spec. It's weak compared to Darkness but so is pretty much every class/spec in the game if you go by that metric. It does respectable DPS and has decent survivality. After Darkness and Marauder I can't think of a DPS spec that's clearly better than Madness in all ways. Maybe some specs edge you overall by a slim margin (not counting the two obvious powerhouses), but that kind of stuff is too close to tell without extensive parsing/data.

After Darkness and Marauder I can't think of a DPS spec that's clearly better than Madness in all ways.

 

How about Pyro PTs?

Better armor, better burst, longer range.

Grapple in dps spec is awsome.

100% uptime slow.

+25% dmg reduction compared to +50% defence

 

Stealth is the only thing Madness brings compared to a Pyro PT.

 

 

Hybrid Sorcs? Madness Sorcs even? Same passive damage reduction, but 30 m range on everyting. Shields, AoE blind/root and healing.

 

Madness can taunt and AoE taunt in exchange for all that?

 

 

I would like all specs to have access to Disjunction, Eye of the Storm and Force Pull.

 

That would make all 3 specs more equal.

i'm also a bm madness assassin, played it all the way from level 10 to 50 (though i tried out the others and always came crying back to madness). i provide insane damage for my team, decent utility in protection, and i can somewhat hold my own in a survivability situation through good use of force shroud/kiting when cloak is down.

 

the only thing i think that madness needs for survivability is for bioware to fix the death field healing bug. as of right now it only heals 2% (with the devour talent) no matter how many targets you hit, instead of 6%. this would make the tree working as intended as the self healing does feel somewhat lacking.

 

deception assassins just need a lower cooldown on force shroud and maybe a talent switched here and there with darkness or something. i cna't say much since i don't play deception.

How about Pyro PTs?

Better armor, better burst, longer range.

Grapple in dps spec is awsome.

100% uptime slow.

+25% dmg reduction compared to +50% defence

 

Stealth is the only thing Madness brings compared to a Pyro PT.

 

 

Hybrid Sorcs? Madness Sorcs even? Same passive damage reduction, but 30 m range on everyting. Shields, AoE blind/root and healing.

 

Madness can taunt and AoE taunt in exchange for all that?

 

 

I would like all specs to have access to Disjunction, Eye of the Storm and Force Pull.

 

That would make all 3 specs more equal.

 

Stealth, BETTER CC, more control of the battlefield, better peels, MORE damage. Your Pyro PT buddy will blow someone up with lucky proc and crits, then he's sort of capped on heat and he can't really move around much either, nor he got any good CC except 1 stun. Also with 1.2 he won't use guard anymore either nor have increased armor from ion gas cylinder.

 

And fyi, I wreck pt pyro's even with ion gas now, as balance shadow, and there is nothing they can do to stop it.

Pyro PTs have surprisingly low survivality against any class that isn't weak against interrupts (pretty much any melee). They tend to get away with that because people usually look at PT and think 'tank' and just ignore them.

 

I can certainly see some classes being better than Madness overall but there are only two class/spec (Darkness and Annihilation) that's clearly better than Madness in just about every way.

I also wreck anni marauders (rage are walk in the park), same shadow balance. They have better defenses when they chain them together, true, but without them they are wet paper bags (and in 1v1 you can bypass those defenses with kitting, vanish, snare and los etc), their utility is a weak 6s aoe incapacitate and the group - soon Operation / raid speed buff. While shadow brings more peeling, more control of the battlefield, and they have about same mobility - if not better.

Marauders bring pretty much just DPS, but they do bring a lot of it. In theory they are quite beatable with any class but when you fight a class that does so much damage, you don't get to make very many, if any, mistakes before you lose and they have 2 CDs that covers whatever mistake they make.

 

With Force Camo invulnerability nerfed next patch I think the class will be pretty balanced. It'd be a high DPS high risk class.

It really depends your style, Madness is a somewhat of a hybrid between caster and melee in the assassin with so fairly good dmg medigation perks. And Madness if far more a focus on DOT dmg. this makes yuo great at fighting healers becuz you also have a knockback an interrupt a CC which roles into a 2 second stun if you perk it right in madness and another 4 second stun with all the DOT dmg from creeping terror death field discharge and crushing darkness. I am currently using a Deception build now and it has far greater single target attacks which are great becuz they are usually internal so they ignore armor and you can use it in a way where you can practically spam thrash voltaic slash and maul for free and discharge deals a crap load of internal dmg in the form you use as well as the form itself. So really both are good, theyre better at different things. Madness is mbut more bursty with death field, but deception is great sustained dmg. It all depends on what you want to do in the WZ. besides the class is freakishly strong anyway right

Wai u nekro old pre-2.0 thread?

 

Bad poster! Bad!

Would be a nice quality of life change if getting out of a combat state didn't take 30 seconds or more. Sometimes I'm in combat still even after having just dropped my stealth away from everyone else. Its incredibly annoying and pretty much halfs my utility due to this bug. Same thing with Phasewalk. If I use it to get to safety to heal it still takes forever to get out of combat. As like someone else previously mentioned, I might as well have just died and respawned.

 

 

Some of you mentioned you're making good use of Madness in PVP. How is that working out for you? Whats the general routine from stealth to kill?

Would be a nice quality of life change if getting out of a combat state didn't take 30 seconds or more. Sometimes I'm in combat still even after having just dropped my stealth away from everyone else. Its incredibly annoying and pretty much halfs my utility due to this bug. Same thing with Phasewalk. If I use it to get to safety to heal it still takes forever to get out of combat. As like someone else previously mentioned, I might as well have just died and respawned.

 

 

Some of you mentioned you're making good use of Madness in PVP. How is that working out for you? Whats the general routine from stealth to kill?

 

I haven't found a use for it in serious play, but if you just want to farm numbers or use it just for ***** it actually survives quite well in kiting with all the different utility moves like phase walk, cloak, and the assortment of knockback/roots. If you do find yourself eating damage you'll die REALLY FAST but as long as you kite good and you have a healer it survives rather well and puts out good numbers.

The one thing you'll never do in this spec is burst someone down out of stealth. It has literally no burst damage aside from recklessness and it's a dps pressure spec where you spam dots and preferrably on deathmarked targets.

The only thing it does ok on if you really want to burst a target down is hurt tanks more than other dps specs, since it's all internal damage, and you can keep them rooted and slowed for an insane amount of time.

The problem with the madness assassin tree though is at the end of the day sorcs just do madness better, even if the spec were good for killing enemies in the first place.

 

And combat not dropping is one of the things I really hate about this game. I can walk to the other side of the map and still be in combat after phase walk and force cloak. At that point I could have died twice and been back and still done some damage in between.

Edited June 3, 2013 by JP_Legatus