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Sage Top 3 Questions - Answered

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sage / Sorcerer
Sage Top 3 Questions - Answered
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namesaretough's Avatar


namesaretough
05.28.2014 , 02:00 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
You're a raid leader, Smugglin, so let me put the question to you. You have two choices for a ranged DPS slot. Both of your options do exactly the same sustained damage, and have roughly comparable burst and AoE tools. However, one of your options takes 15-20% more damage than the other. Further imagine that these are both equally strong players. Ignoring raid utilities for the moment, which of them do you pick?

(…and don't say "gunslinger") ;-)
Fortunately, this doesn't exist in 2.8, at least as far as the last PTS patch goes, because that would be extremely unbalanced. Maybe DF slingers or Assault Commandos will get buffed to 4.1k dps before it goes live, but I doubt it. TK outparses Gunnery and SS in 2.8, too, last time I checked.

...But obviously, you take the gunslinger.
Quote:
Citation needed.
My "citation" to prove that taking extra damage isn't the same as getting oneshot if you don't have a bubble?
Quote:
Remember that balance/madness actually has better survivability than tk/lightning. Vigilance/Vengeance has better survivability than Focus/Rage. Balance/Madness shadow/assassin is to have the best defensive cooldown in the game. Even looking cross-spec, scrapper/concealment has dramatically, absurdly better survivability than either of the sage/sorc specs, despite also having substantially better damage.

Basically, there is no consistent correlation between damage taken and maximum DPS. The "glass cannon" philosophy of DPS class balance has never held in SWTOR; not in 2.8, and not in any patch prior.
You know balance is more complicated than damage in vs damage out. Reducing it to simplistic terms to try to prove a point helps no one. Balance sage vs DF slinger vs Assault commando is a much better comparison than Balancs vs TK, as is TK vs Gunnery vs Sharpshooter. A direct comparison of scrapper scoundrel and sage dps survivability across all sage specs? You're smarter than that.

Just because the devs haven't reached balance yet doesn't mean we're not moving closer to it every balance patch (I did say it's the balance we "seem" to be approaching).
Smugglin

AlrikFassbauer's Avatar


AlrikFassbauer
05.28.2014 , 02:00 PM | #22
First, I'm utterly disappointed by the "Sage as a Jedi" answer. So the Lightsabre still remains to be a pure stat stick. I will continue calling it so. This will be my only name for that thing in the future.

Plus, to me this is proof of how broken the Sage Jedi" design is.


Second, I'm baffled by the response regarding survivability in OPs.

I ssume by now that they don't expect the Sage to be using Force Armor etc. because they believe that there exists nothing but internal & elemental damage.

Curiously, they exclusively mentioned DD Sages in that answer - no comment on the survivability of Seer Sages.
And no comment on survivability in PvP, either.
Complex minds
Cope with
Complex problems.

Petvin's Avatar


Petvin
05.28.2014 , 02:16 PM | #23
It is obvious that the dev that designed sage healing tree had not any thought in its creation, about how it would perform in a PVP setting.
The Cosmos is all that is or was or ever will be. Carl Sagan

Petvin's Avatar


Petvin
05.28.2014 , 02:18 PM | #24
[QUOTE=Master-Nala;7451084]


Respectfully, I disagree. There are no Jedi in the lore, who rely so little on the lightsaber. But I thank you for the answer. Please do allow Willpower to affect melee attacks. And consider that proliferating one-two of the animations from Guardians/Juggernauts could do this easily.

Resorting to lies in order to defend the question? A very good decision

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Fay This link proves that it is a lie
The Cosmos is all that is or was or ever will be. Carl Sagan

sanchito's Avatar


sanchito
05.28.2014 , 02:22 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post


...and we would love to hear your own ideas on how you would like Sage/Sorcerer healing to be improved in PvP without also making Sage/Sorcerer healing too good in PvE

Force mend of the gcd like you suggested in the pve answer would certainly help in pvp as well :-)

Also i feel like in arenas, i'm always either stunned or at full resolve, so in my opinion we would need either

1) damage reduction while stunned
2) stun immunity cooldown / proc
3) cooldown useable while stunned

Dyvim's Avatar


Dyvim
05.28.2014 , 02:28 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Master-Nala View Post
Respectfully, I disagree. There are no Jedi in the lore, who rely so little on the lightsaber. But I thank you for the answer. Please do allow Willpower to affect melee attacks. And consider that proliferating one-two of the animations from Guardians/Juggernauts could do this easily.

Quote: Originally Posted by Petvin View Post
Resorting to lies in order to defend the question? A very good decision

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Fay This link proves that it is a lie
She was in a comic...one issue...besides, you can find anything in the EU...like jawa jedi, or whatever. I believe Nala's point was focused on the higher order lore of the movies, which everyone has seen and understands...that and the other licensed games, since this is a game. Calling him a liar is over the top and unfounded.
The Crystal is the Heart of the Blade.
The Heart is the Crystal of the Jedi.
The Jedi is the Crystal of the Force.
The Force is the Blade of the Heart.
All are Intertwined...the Crystal, the Blade, the Jedi...

MillionsKNives's Avatar


MillionsKNives
05.28.2014 , 02:29 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Now here are some questions for the Sage/Sorcerer community, regarding Noble Sacrifice/Consumption. Do you believe removing the health cost of Noble Sacrifice/Consumption as a PvP set bonus would be something that PvE Sage/Sorcerer healers also feel like they need, or are PvE Sage/Sorcerers happier with their current set bonuses? If it is something that PvE Sages/Sorcerers would rather have as well, then which current PvE set bonus would you want to give up for it? Do you think that having a health-cost-free Noble Sacrifice/Consumption would be too good for PvE? Do you believe it might take away too much of the challenge for healing in PvE situations?
I feel that Noble Sacrifice is fine as it is in PvE, and I'm not sure that it would be overall better for the class to remove it. However, I think that the 4-piece PvE set bonus would be the obvious choice to replace if you are to go that route. The Sorcs in my guild don't even bother with the 4-piece bonus unless everyone else has the gear already, because it's perceived to be that useless. While it technically does grant a bonus, it is very underwhelming and doesn't provide a very tangible benefit.

Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Our feeling was that there are many players who want the experience of playing as a Jedi/Sith who relies almost solely on their mastery of the Force to resolve the challenges they face, with the lightsaber serving only as a secondary weapon; these classes were designed with that experience in mind.
Of all the abilities, outside of the basic two you get at character creation, I can't think of any abilities that actually incorporate the lightsaber in their animations. For the Sage it's held to the side while your other hand does the actual animation, while on the Sorc it's simply palmed while the animation runs normally. It's rather underwhelming to stand there twirling my lightsaber in my hand while never actually making use of it. I can quite literally unequip my lightsaber and continue use (almost) all of my abilities without penalty (I don't mean stat-wise). This really gives weight to the idea that the lightsaber is nothing more than a stat-stick, and with your admission that you have no plans to change that, only seems to fit that much more.

With that in mind, I propose a change that Sorcs and Sages are given the option to not draw their lightsabers in combat, unless an ability that directly uses it is activated. If you want to give the feeling that they don't rely on their lightsabers in combat then truly allow them to not use their lightsabers in combat. This would really reinforce the idea that they only rely on the force to fight.

Chrisweaver's Avatar


Chrisweaver
05.28.2014 , 02:30 PM | #28
[QUOTE=EricMusco;7451068][color=#f9d648]
PvP - Seer Spec Issues

Sage/Sorcerer healers, we hear you and we see that our data validates what you are saying – as it shows you are currently performing behind both Scoundrel/Operative healers and Commando/Mercenary healers in PvP. We do not currently have any plans to share with you on how we intend to improve Sage/Sorcerer healing in PvP, but it is a priority for us, and we would love to hear your own ideas on how you would like Sage/Sorcerer healing to be improved in PvP without also making Sage/Sorcerer healing too good in PvE. We will say in advance that, “make such-and-such ability activate instantly,” is not a solution we are likely to consider (unless it is a temporary buff triggered by something else, and not a permanent reduction of activation time). Our goal is to keep Sage/Sorcerer healing as close as possible to the way it is in PvE, while improving how it performs in PvP.

Now here are some questions for the Sage/Sorcerer community, regarding Noble Sacrifice/Consumption. Do you believe removing the health cost of Noble Sacrifice/Consumption as a PvP set bonus would be something that PvE Sage/Sorcerer healers also feel like they need, or are PvE Sage/Sorcerers happier with their current set bonuses? If it is something that PvE Sages/Sorcerers would rather have as well, then which current PvE set bonus would you want to give up for it? Do you think that having a health-cost-free Noble Sacrifice/Consumption would be too good for PvE? Do you believe it might take away too much of the challenge for healing in PvE situations?

Please let us know your thoughts about these issues in your replies to this post. We will be listening, and we appreciate your feedback.




Thank you for not telling us to h2f this time! As a long time fan of sorc heals in pvp I would love to have a 4 piece set bonus that takes away the health cost of consumption. If you end up thinking this maybe OP I would even be willing to have a 12 second cd so it cannot be spammed. Either way I can tell you guys are getting the idea now. Hope to see the change before 3.0
Bibidi -Sorcerer 70 -Satan Marauder 70
Gohan-Sniper 70 Végeta-Powertech 70
Bobidi-Assassin 70 Majin-Büü-Mercenary 70
Chrìst "the risen"-Juggernaut 70 The Bastion Living Legend Manhunter

g_land's Avatar


g_land
05.28.2014 , 02:32 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
[color=#f9d648]Hey folks!

We are mostly satisfied with Sage/Sorcerer survivability in Operations. If you are a Sage/Sorcerer that specializes in dealing damage, we do not expect you to use Force Armor/Static Barrier on yourself or others in an Operation. If you find this to not be the case in any given encounter, please feel free to post in the Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions forum, and let the Operations team know specifically which mechanic in which encounter is making you feel like you are required to use Force Armor/Static Barrier on yourself to survive. Also, please note that depending on how you and your healer specialize (if your group has a Sage/Sorcerer healer), your own Force Armor/Static Barrier is likely weaker and more expensive than your Sage/ Sorcerer healer’s Force Armor/Static Barrier. In addition, using your own Force Armor/Static Barrier will lockout your Sage/Sorcerer healer’s stronger and cheaper version of the ability.

Usually, damage dealt to the whole Operation group or to random Operation group members is dealt as elemental or internal damage, so that the classes with higher armor values do not have an advantage over classes with lower armor values, like the Sage/Sorcerer. Sometimes, the Operations team will intentionally decide to not make this damage elemental or internal (as is currently the case in the Dread Master Brontes encounter). If you feel that such practices leave the Sage/Sorcerer in a position that is too vulnerable, then please let us know in the Operations forum (linked above) so that we can address the issue.

Now with that said, we will definitely consider taking the global cooldown off of Force Mend/Unnatural Preservation, but the global cooldown on Force Armor/Static Barrier is there to stay, since it can be placed on others and we do not expect you to use the ability in Operations if you are a damage dealer.
Okay, so according to the devs we shouldn't use force armor and force mend to help with raid wide damage because its on the gcd, seems like every other class gets abilities that allow them to do that which are off the gcd. Sages are simply asking for similar abilities, otherwise they should effectively tell all classes they aren't supposed to use their dcds. So, scoundrel/slingers shouldn't use defense screen/dodge, guardian/sents shouldn't ever touch a whole host of survivability cds, vanguards/commandos should never hit that reactive shield thingamajigger, and shadows get resilience/battle readiness/deflection all of which are off the gcd. These all get used in pve to an extent to help out the healers but you are basically saying sages should have none of those aside from the three minute cd channeled "invulnerable" button which by the way still has the infamous does not work 5% of the time bug and takes us out of the fight for however long the damage is occurring or until we realize its huge effect on our dps.

I love the specific example that you chose about the Brontes fight, those orbs with your argument of letting another sage put the bubble on us would be great, if done the split second before contact, but that ignores the pulsing damage they do which will degrade the absorption of that shield. Every other class has an ability to use on those that reduces damage taken for some period of time rather than a flat damage taken, exception being slingers but they can cheese them by rolling through the orbs and taking no damage... If a sage attempts to cheese with force barrier, the orbs merely switch targets!

I am not saying these can't be done but to sit there and say we shouldn't use the defensive tools given, and count on someone else to be able to help you out in addition to themselves i.e. sage healer bubbling both you and them, when they are so hopelessly underwhelming in comparison to other classes is terrible. If that is the case, then I would expect some drastic out-parsing of the glass cannon variety but... yeah.

I guess at this point all we can do is laugh. I find it impossible to believe that whoever wrote this reply did so with a straight face.

Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
05.28.2014 , 02:34 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
We could rather easily make Willpower affect melee attacks for Sages/Sorcerers, but we have no intention to make Sages/Sorcerers use their lightsabers more than they currently do. In terms of lore, the particular attributes that make someone a “Jedi Sage” or a “Sith Sorcerer” vary over the vast timeline of the Star Wars galaxy. And while Yoda and Palpatine were definitely inspirations for these classes, they are never identified by those terms in the films, and it wasn’t our intention to make direct gameplay clones of those characters in any case. Our feeling was that there are many players who want the experience of playing as a Jedi/Sith who relies almost solely on their mastery of the Force to resolve the challenges they face, with the lightsaber serving only as a secondary weapon; these classes were designed with that experience in mind.
Let me try to convince you... But please note, I'm not trying to convince you to make Sage/Sorcerer a melee class but trying to convince you that the measure taken since launch (no melee bonus) is unnecessary and potentially harmful to the class.

1. You stated that you wanted to avoid situations where counterplay was impossible. That's why you reversed a planned change of Evasion for Snipers.
But just think about it : what counterplay a Sage/Sorcerer has against Saber Reflect or Resillience/Force Shroud ? In the case of Saber Reflect, the Sage/Sorcerer may use Force Quake/Lightning Storm, but in case of Resilience/Force Shroud, the only answer is "melee".
This particularity of the advanced class is contradictory to design you said you're aiming for.

2. Why are Sages/Sorcerers almost always the "first target" of melee classes in PvP ? Because in addition of their low armor, they have really poor defensive cooldown, as well as being easy to shut down considering their high cast reliance. Is it okay to be almost completely neutralized because of the compliance of all these flaws ? It would be much less dramatic if they had a few more instant abilities... which they already have and you know which two I'm thinking about.
This is probably the only AC with such glaring weaknesses that it affect players behavior.

3. It would make more sense for a class that lacks the defense to keep the offense high when endangered. Please, take a look at your other ranged classes and specs. When they're sensible to being assaulted, they gain defenses (Arsenal, Snipers...). They don't when they I have ways to keep the offense high (Assault, Lethality). Sages/Sorcerers are neither able to defend, neither to keep the offense high.
This probably makes it the only AC which can be neutralized completely

4. Would being able to land some saber strikes change the ACs' way of playing ?
The answer is no. You have range, and no benefit of using melee-range abilities. That alone make you wish to stand behind, outside of melee range, almost never using melee abilities outside of rare exceptions.
The measure is probably useless mechanically.

5. Would it ruin the feel of a Jedi solving issues with the Force ? Would it be shocking to see them use the Lightsaber ?
No. The Lightsaber is here, apparent, occasionnally waved to deflect shots, asking to be used when the opportunity occurs. It's not more shocking that these deflect avoidances.
If you doubt it, please answer this question : does the ability to Shiv your target as a Sniper makes you feel less "expert sniper" ?
It would likely be lore/game breaking for no-one in the Galaxy

Now, I may understand that you, as devs, may have different feedbacks on these points, especially number 2 and 3... But since you're justifying this choice with "game/lore design", I'd like that you really consider points 1, 4, and 5.