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Since Nibbon has quit: Sage/Sorcerer Top issues discussion

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sage / Sorcerer
Since Nibbon has quit: Sage/Sorcerer Top issues discussion
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Master-Nala's Avatar


Master-Nala
02.14.2014 , 05:48 AM | #11
OK having seen what the devs propose, what say you now Sages?

Force Barrier is getting a decent buff. The random number generator is being reigned in and we may see the rise a deadly new hybrid. Can we reasonably ask for more?

I'm thinking that the biggest buffs to Sages have been the nerfs to other classes.
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AdrianDmitruk's Avatar


AdrianDmitruk
02.14.2014 , 02:20 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Master-Nala View Post
OK having seen what the devs propose, what say you know Sages?

Force Barrier is getting a decent buff. The random number generator is being reigned in and we may see the rise a deadly new hybrid. Can we reasonably ask for more?

I'm thinking that the biggest buffs to Sages have been the nerfs to other classes.
I said in the sorc thread that yes it's nice to finally see any kind of buff but I really don't feel comfortable with where in our talent trees the devs have put said buffs because every single one of them is in the middle of a talent tree where hybrids can easily get it. Worse, full 36 point builds become even less desirable relative to hybrids because hybrids can access more of the new buffs than pure builds and pure builds have no new improvements high in their trees (ESPECIALLY a problem for seer as there's so much useless filler between Healing Trance and Salvation). Since the devs have an avowed anti-hybrid stance we can't be sure the buffs will actually remain for any significant length of time.
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judgeender's Avatar


judgeender
02.14.2014 , 02:34 PM | #13
Posted this in the Sorc Thread, but thought I'd post here too:

These changes definitely look interesting and it will be interesting to see their implementation on the PTS. I have some concerns, particularly regarding Madness/Balance force management becoming an issue with some of these changes, but I'm willing to see how it is implemented.

However, these changes do not address the biggest issue DPS Sorcs/Sages face in PvE progression. DPS Sorcs/Sages have no real defensive cooldown. In Nightmare content (as we saw in TFB & S&V), there are very tight enrage timers which require maximum dps to meet. There is also a lot of "random" damage (where a raid member is targeted to take damage) and a lot of instances where there is significant AOE damage to the entire raid. In many of these cases, Sorcs/Sages take more damage than other classes simply because the damage is mitigated by armor and Sorcs/Sages have the worst armor. On top of that, every other DPS class has one or more defensive cooldown that (i) is off the Global Cooldown, (ii) cuts the damage they take and (iii) doesn't require them to stop performing their job (damaging the boss). Sorcs/Sages lack any such cooldown.

Force Mend/Unnatural Preservation does not provide any protection to damage incoming. While it can be useful for recovery, it is on the GCD (meaning some DPS loss) and it requires survival in the first place.

Force Armor/Static Barrier can mitigate some damage. But it is also on the GCD resulting in lost DPS and at least for Madness/Balance, can create force management issues. Moreover, a DPS Sorc/Sage's bubble is often inferior in terms of damage absorbed to that of a healing specced Sorc/Sage; it is often not ideal for the dps Sorc/Sage to use their own Force Armor/Static Barrier when the healer's is better.

Force Barrier is also not an acceptable defensive cooldown in PvE progression with tight enrage timers. Force Barrier essentially prevents the Sorc/Sage from doing their job (dealing damage). That lost DPS could mean hitting a hard enrage or prolonging a final burn phase that is effectively a race to beat the boss before the healers can't keep up. It is also not up anywhere near as often as the cooldowns of most other dps classes.

Sorcs/Sages need a real defensive cooldown that lets them keep performing their job in PvE progression. Otherwise they are at risk of not being desired in compared to other classes (such as Gunslingers/Snipers who just got a big buff to one of their defensive cooldowns) in PvE progression who will take less damage and have a better chance of surviving while continuing to perform their job.

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darthjanus's Avatar


darthjanus
02.14.2014 , 03:44 PM | #14
If it would be helpful in our upcoming questions to be more generalized, the discussion about survivability should examine BioWare's philosophy towards off-healing and the community's concerns with that approach. It appears quite clear from the last round of questions that BioWare firmly believes the off-healing potential of DPS Sage/Sorcerers is a viable and powerful survivability tool. The community's consensus following this "heal to full" answer was quite rightly negative.

It is true that off-healing has some benefit in PVP, but that's only if you can escape and line of sight players for a not so insignificant amount of time, which is not so simple with the low survivability of the class. In PVE, specifically Operations, off-healing is not a real consideration. No one brings a DPS Sage/Sorcerer in the group because of their utility to off-heal, and if you are having to take time from doing damage to heal yourself, then you are hurting the groups ability to beat enrage timers and push through difficult phases.

Furthermore, the abilities available to off-heal have no synergy with the DPS talent trees at all. A class designed with the intention of having true off-heal capability must be more than abilities that only exist in the advanced class to be buffed within the healing tree. These are left over abilities that BioWare is wrongly deeming equivalent to defensive cooldowns.

Most importantly, the consensus of the DPS Sage/Sorcerer community is largely against off-healing. These players want to deal damage, which is why they selected those specific talent trees. I imagine most DPS Sage/Sorcerers would gladly trade the two cast time heals for some additional mitigation ability.

BioWare needs to rethink its approach to off-healing and its effect on this class. Either healing abilities should be easily incorporated into a DPS tree (most likely in the form of passive healing similar to the Watchman/Annihilation class or some of the abilities available to a Discipline Priest from World of Warcraft) or these abilities should be removed in favor of a defensive cooldown that does not hinder our DPS role.
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AlrikFassbauer's Avatar


AlrikFassbauer
02.15.2014 , 06:05 AM | #15
My personal problem with the Sage has always been its survivability, never the dd.
And the healing part a bit as well, as it always feels so slow ...
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Terrulin's Avatar


Terrulin
02.18.2014 , 11:51 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by AdrianDmitruk View Post
I said in the sorc thread that yes it's nice to finally see any kind of buff but I really don't feel comfortable with where in our talent trees the devs have put said buffs because every single one of them is in the middle of a talent tree where hybrids can easily get it. Worse, full 36 point builds become even less desirable relative to hybrids because hybrids can access more of the new buffs than pure builds and pure builds have no new improvements high in their trees (ESPECIALLY a problem for seer as there's so much useless filler between Healing Trance and Salvation). Since the devs have an avowed anti-hybrid stance we can't be sure the buffs will actually remain for any significant length of time.
Unless that hybrid is a gunslinger. I dont remember them doing anything about that.
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Master-Nala's Avatar


Master-Nala
02.18.2014 , 07:29 PM | #17
It looks like a question about survivability is a given. So I ask, how would you ask the question? Psirebral, who in my opinion, asked very good questions, wound up with H2F as an answer. I don't suspect the developers will say that again, but how do we craft the question in terms to get at least an explanation of Bioware's stance on this class?
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JDotter's Avatar


JDotter
02.19.2014 , 07:06 PM | #18
Whoever is elected get us an execute. We do not need more survivability, I've done progression content at a world pace since 1.2 and never had issues as some of you describe with NM content.


Execute tied into shock or death field potentially look at force issues post 2.7 (is fine now in my PoV.) New rotation post 2.7 for 36 point madness looks extremely force negative however

Master-Nala's Avatar


Master-Nala
02.24.2014 , 01:17 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by JDotter View Post
Whoever is elected get us an execute. We do not need more survivability, I've done progression content at a world pace since 1.2 and never had issues as some of you describe with NM content.


Execute tied into shock or death field potentially look at force issues post 2.7 (is fine now in my PoV.) New rotation post 2.7 for 36 point madness looks extremely force negative however
Why do you say our rotation will be force negative? With 4 stacks of TK focal point, Disturbance should be force positive with Inner Strength.
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Terrulin's Avatar


Terrulin
02.25.2014 , 10:22 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Master-Nala View Post
Why do you say our rotation will be force negative? With 4 stacks of TK focal point, Disturbance should be force positive with Inner Strength.
Technically he did post that before the announced changes to telekinetic focal point. That said,

Quote: Originally Posted by JDotter View Post
Whoever is elected get us an execute. We do not need more survivability, I've done progression content at a world pace since 1.2 and never had issues as some of you describe with NM content.
is a very narrow view to take. Not everyone plays balance and has the heal procs to keep them topped off. Also, while I havent had that problem either, I have had NiM kephess take me from full to less than 100 health with my bubble on me. And better gear was not possible at the time. A guild mate of mine was one shot by the same mechanic more than once (when we were all in mostly 72 gear still). When every other class has at least 25% health after, or even survives while not hitting a cooldown, then this is probably an issue.
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