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Our Top 3 Concerns as Sorcerers

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sage / Sorcerer
Our Top 3 Concerns as Sorcerers

Psirebral's Avatar

07.30.2013 , 07:12 PM | #31
Just wanted to jump in here regarding fireswraiths post. I understand what our job is but as you can see in my first post in the blue and red letters are the concerns and just possible ways of fixing. As we don't know exactly how the information will be taken when it gets to Bioware, don't you think it might be a good idea to also give them suggestions? I for one am liking some of these suggestions/concerns and I've even had non-sage/sorcerers chime in to me personally with good ideas.

Long story short is when you get people and their creative juices flowing you get some fantastic results, add that too the collaboration between me and Nibbon in addition to the community as a whole, I think we can get these concerns smoothed out quickly and sent off to BW. We still have plenty of time so don't stress too much about what our concerns will be either.

Anyway lets continue this civility. Thanks.

wwkingms's Avatar

07.30.2013 , 11:10 PM | #32
psi ive brought this up in posts with u before but i feel force barrier could be looked at
as is, its not being used quite as bioware assumed it would be, that is to help sorcs survive burst.. it does that sometimes but generally not... especially at a 3 minute cooldown

IN ORDER these are what i use force barrier for the most

1.) extra trinket/ cc break
2.) a deterent from being attacked
3.) to keep from capping a turret
4.) to avoid a burst rotation i'd otherwise eat, or a smash lol

and the worst reason of all

5.) to survive against multiple foes
-why is this the worse reason? becuase most situations liek this, your team has wiped or you were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Unless your team catches up and peels the other thing that will happen is that force barrier will end, and you still will die.. and have wasted 10s of your own time. honestly it could be better to just die, res and get back on an objective

I CANNOT REMEMBER the last time i let FB channel for its duration...
usually... theres not point.. for the same reasons of my 1-4 top uses

so i suggest an added incentive tied deep in each trees talents for us to use this ability more wisely or for its purpose

corruption (healing) - while channeling FB, the sorc emits a medium aoe heal every second and at the COMPLETE full duration of FB the a stronger aoe heal for about hte 4-k range. the range could be around 10 yards. this allows a healing sorc.. in trying to avoid death.. still be able to assist the team... 10seconds of downtime as a healer will get all your dps killed most likely

lightning- basically the dps version of corruptions, whi;le channeling FB the sorc emits a medium strength aoe lighting field hitting up to 4 enemies within 10 yards for about 500 dmg every second and at the COMPLETE duration of the FB affect a either a larger aoe burst around the 4k range or possible a blind.knockback with small dmg

madness - While channeling FB the sorc regenerates FORCE, YES SWEET FORCE, adding up to 500 force over a full 10second duration , and at the COMPLETE channeling of FB , up to 4 enemies wilithin 10 yarders will be affliction with creeping terror

at first every whine bag would say this would be OP
but remember, FB is a THREE MINUTE cooldown which is an eternity in PvP
While using FB the sorc (unless holding off a node) is being COMPLETELY USELESS TO HIS TEAM/OBJECTIVES
for the heal affect allies need o be close
and for the dps aoe affect enemies would just need ot step out of range, like orbital strike

this certainly will not fix our class, but could be a great start


DarthEndonae's Avatar

07.30.2013 , 11:53 PM | #33
That is a beautiful idea!

orryko's Avatar

07.31.2013 , 05:41 AM | #34
only speaking about pvp

sorcs feel incomplete because they are missing a lot of abilities for each spec that would really help round them out. anyone who's played wow will know what i mean, especially with arenas around the corner.

- need some sort of binding heal, where the sorc and target are healed a medium amount with a 1.5 cast time
- need a pain suppression/damage reduction cd that can be cast on self or friendly

- needs a blink/teleport on a moderate cd
- a cd which allows spells to be cast while moving

- a new dot which offers dispel protection ala Unstable Affliction. If someone dispels it, they are silenced/take a lot of damage
- a drain life spell so that they can tap for force and then recover life more quickly

All specs would also benefit from some type of aura such as the priest's inner fire and inner will. One increases armor, the other increases movement speed. Insert any other ideas you wish.

I know people will flame me or say go play wow, but seriously...if you pvp at a high level, or even moderate level, then you know these abilities would help a lot for each spec.

What I really want is ride the lightning from GW2 incorporated for lightning sorcs so make that happen kthx

darthjanus's Avatar

07.31.2013 , 07:06 AM | #35
In regards to survivability, BioWare should reexamine static barrier. Currently, it only absorbs a moderate amount and its lockout is such that you essentially always have it up. It has therefore no strategic value to when it is used and is essentially a check if you remembered to press the activation key or not.

If the amount of damage it absorbed were greatly increased along with the length of the lockout, then it would have some strategic significance and add a unique element to sorcerer play style. Instead of just always having static barrier up, you would have to chose when to activate it so you aren't trapped by the lockout, such as times when you are being focused or pull aggro. The benefit would be that instead of absorbing a single attack, static barrier would feel more useful. The ability should be designed such that an attacker should sense some risk when attacking a sorcerer with barrier up instead of just ignoring it as they currently do.
"I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further." - Darth Vader

JDotter's Avatar

07.31.2013 , 08:09 AM | #36
Figured I'd drop a message and post my feelings.

Before I start figured I'd mention I've cleared every boss to date and to date I am the only sorc/sage to have killed NM Stryak (8man)

Madness- PvE
My personal issues/gripes

1. Lackluster damage unless we have cooldowns, becomes more apparent during burn phases that last < 12-15 seconds or when a boss drops below 30%.

2. DoT time is horrendous 18 seconds for 4400 (aff), 5200 (ct) isn't great on the majority of boss fights. Majority of the NM styrak fight is timed based and is extremely awkward for a sorc/sage to get into rhythm without overlapping DoT timers to maximize DoT uptop without losing DPS. If you've ran the fight on NM or watched footage you'd see what I'm referring to. On flip side boss fights like olok (p2), TWH, TFB, operator, warlords you are able to DoT multiple targets and it be real damage and not a fluff parse for epeen. I suppose thats the trade off.

3. AoE damage is subpar. Force storm needs a buff a crit hits for 1100 and DF hits for 3400 (5 targets.) It becomes real apparent who kills adds on fights like dash'rode and Titan 6 when you have an Orbital strike, Force Storm/DF, Death from above, and so on. Yes I know OS is a minute CD and Force Storm has no cooldown. Adds are dead before you get your second FS off or another DF. Also if you DF one of the adds you lose the DoT % bonus on the main target. OS = 4.5K a tick, FS = 1100 CRIT, unsure on DFA.

4. No execute Its real apparent on TFB tentacles when your side is up 15% and you get to 30% and you are behind now what's going on and why. Also the tentacle add phase when you have to kill it in a 8-12 second window (far side not close spawn) you literally do nothing compared to other range classes (Force lighting spam + wrath proc + pray for another proc or shock )

5. Set bonus is subpar needs to be the assassin dps pvp set bonus. Compare our dps gain to a mara dps gain from set bonus alone and its alarming.

Good things we do

Mobility - Force speed saves my bacon weekly.

Self heal- Personally feel this needs a nerf (I can do 400-500 HPS on majority of fights using this off CD/dots/df.

Force Barrier - Cool for avoiding mechanics/wiping aggro. TFB tentacle (doesn't compare to carnage mara afk during slam ) is nice to have for at least three slams. DG tricks, kephess tricks, etc. CD seems high but is needed for PvP.

Pull - Personally don't use as much as I used to back in NM EC still has its place and can potentially cover ones mistake

Bubble- I don't usually raid with a sorc healer, so its nice for tanks on DMG intensive situations IE= kephess slam, olok (p2) kiting, Thrasher sniper phases, etc....

Off-Heal - Other classes have this, our first NM stryak kill I landed a 10K heal with a tank at 3% and it may have saved us from a wipe. Obviously extremely situational and have to trust other dps in group.

I'm going to disagree with the majority of you on the force issue. If I run into an issue I've done something wrong somewhere or did not keep 4 stacks of focal lighting up or got unlucky with set bonus affliction procs.

Majority of time I'm sitting at 6% of free alacrity then with set bonus procs/Polarity shift if I doof its easy to recover.

On that same note I do wish we had the force pool lighting/tk sorc/sages have where they can just afk press buttons and not lose force.

I agree with majority of PvP stuff some seems like a l2p issue but do need changes

EDIT: grats psi even though you talked **** to me in a WZ for no apparent reason

Shadowhispers's Avatar

07.31.2013 , 09:05 AM | #37
Hi all, i do not post very often, as lets face it, the majority of posts in the forums tend to be QQ threads about nerf this buff that and tend to add very little to the community in terms of constructive feedback or discussions so im delighted BW have introduced these new representatives.
Ive played Sorc, aswell as Jug since Open beta so have been through the ups and downs for both and as Psire has said, currently i believe Sorcs are in the best position as a class since release, Although the points raised are probably the most standout problems that still remain.

So, First on the list,
Madness Force Regen

Reguardless of the 2.0 change to alacrity and resource regen component, you still burn through more force than you regain per point of alacrity, mainly because of the varying costs of different abilities so while the change isnt a bad thing, its certainly not helped madness in terms of management.
I really like the idea of attaching a +force regen to Deathfield stacks, and honestly i think 0.5% / 0.75% per stack consumed is a fair number, thats 3 force per stack or 45/68 per full deathfield. PER TARGET, 5 targets with deathfield stacks and affliction up, thats a hell of a lot of force
2% as someone suggested is way too much, 30% force regen ( 180) every 15 seconds, on top of the 8 passive force regen +alacrity per second, thats a whopping 300+ ( OVER 50% FORCE) regained every 15seconds, not to mention the 1% per FL tick, your gonna be gaining more force back than you can spend once your dots are up.
Currently Madness in 1-2 target combat doesnt have much of a force problem at all in PVE, but it does in PVP with the more movement, the chance of having FL interupted and not getting the full 4% regen, the more dot spreading to maximize pressure on healers with multiple targets taking steady dmg, self healing etc, so this small change i think would be more than enough to solve any Force Issues.

2nd on the List
Madness Burst

Now i tend to agree with Nibbon on this one, madness can do some pretty nasty burst with polarity shift up and good use of recklessness. Granted its not "Burst on demand" so to say, since it requires CDs to be available so i will tie my suggestion into another point raised which is AN EXECUTE.
Now Madness pre 2.0 had a sort of execute in the form of chainshock.
Shock has a 6sec CD the same as other class executes and costs slightly more than other abilities and its instant cast, but ive noticed that shock hasnt seemed to have scaled all that well with the level increase so even if you take the skillpoints a proc wont do that much more dmg than an instant Lightning strike.

So..... to my idea. Change chainshock completely to a 2 Skill point to where Shock deals 50/100% more dmg to targets below 30% health.

Ok Next point, which is:
Lightning Mobility.
This is my Spec of choice right now and it is very much a turret. Not gonna get long winded, its a casting spec, lots of casts, very little cast protection.
Now, im gonna bring up the Dreaded World of warcraft comparison here, but hey, lets face it, Lightning spec is basically the Elemental shaman without totems, and the had the exact same problem, lots of casting stood still. (and any ex wow players, "chain lightning, flame shock+ lavaburst autocrit lots of lightning bolt spam" ring any bells ?
Well they Fixed this issue with glyphs making lightning bolt able to be cast whilst moving and pretty much overnight this turned ele shamans into demons.

Now, my idea isnt Quite so Overpowered.
Currently we get 35/70% cast protection on most of rotation, i think this should be increased to 50/100%. This would be a huge difference in QoL, while at the same time not being over powered since we can still be interupted, we just dont lose casting time when taking damage,

My second idea is kind of across the board change but will be of most benefit to Lightning because of the reduced CD time.
PolarityShift is a great CD, but lets make it 1 step better and allow all skills to be able to be cast on the move whilst PS is active,
this would be a great addition to lightning in PvP meaning you can still do decent dmg for a short period of time while kiting, or on the reverse, chasing down that pesky healer trying to get out of range/LoS, And im sure sorc healers would love abit more mobility in healing.

Ok and finally Healing.

Now here i think im going to have to dissagree with Nibbon on something, though bare in mind i am mainly 8man content so perhaps it performs differently in a 16man setting, but i think Sorcs are mainly a single target tank healer, with a very powerful, but situational Aoe heal. Amazing if u can get 8 targets to stand in it for the duration but definitely not as flexible as the merc/Oper aoe. Resurgence has the armour buff attached to it which screams out tank healer coupled with innervate and static barrier ( sorry for the WoW reference again ) but Discipline priest?
I definately wouldnt describe us as a HoT healer, since you can only have 2 resurgences up at a time ( well 3 for a couple of seconds) and ive never really considered channels heals as HoTs but maybe thats just personal definitions, its still a single target heal and sorc seems to be designed mainly as a single target healer ( focusing 1 target at a time). So i think they should expand abit on that.
Static barrier is by far our most flexible heal, instant cast, premeditated heal for a fixed amount and lasts 30seconds, so my suggestion would be to add a mechanic to innervate, like, "reduces deionized debuff by 1 second per tick.
This would be great for both tank healing in PvE, and for a target being focused in PvP allowing more barriers more regularly while at the same time not being overpowered since you would be still limited to barrier every 9-10 seconds and only on the target you have been healing.
My second suggestion is to Dark heal, by far the most useless heal in game in my view and has been badly changed a couple of times since release. Take kolto infusion for example, pre 2.0 it was a waste of space, but now with the new change its probably the best, most efficient heal in game for the amount of resource it costs, its cast time and its base heal ( heal before crits )
The change i would like to see would be, and which will be great in both PvE and PvP because it deals with another mechanic of sorc healing which is consumption, is if dark heal healed "you" + the target for X amount.

DoT Protection for Madness
And finally finally, something that i dont think has been mentioned but has bothered me for quite a while is some form of DoT protection for Madness. Now i know there is some limited protection for a few seconds by casting force slow aswell since only 2 dots can be cleansed at once, but having Creeping terror cleansed is a real pain with is fairly long CD and healers can cleanse to their hearts content with no downside, Lethality has DoT protection in the form of the secondary DoT ( cant remember the name right now) and they are very powerful in 2.0 so why cant madness?
But my idea is something abit different and would be specific to madness,

IF creeping terror is cleansed, the remaining damage of the DoT is done instantly and is subjected to a Crit roll, so for example, say your CT does 4k damage over the 18secs and is cleansed after 9 seconds, the target would take 2k dmg instantly , or 4k ish Crit ( depending on your surge)

Sorry for the big wall'o'text, and not used to posting so sorry again for the lack of quotes/fancy colours
Feel free to discuss/agree/disagree/call me a fool etc, but they are just my ideas


EDIT: just remember something else thats bothered me for ages.
RECKLESSNESS for a 90sec CD is really quite rubbish when you think about how it actually works. for starters is only 60% crit change with 2 charges, thats not even 2 definite Crits every 90secs on demand, AND to add insult to injury, Procs such as chainshock, the second attack from TB and LS consume a charge, ASWELL as AoE attacks consuming both charges if it hits more than 1 target and doesnt crit on all targets hit

This in my view needs to be changed to 100% crit for 2 separate attacks/heals reguardless of procs. definitely Not overpowered when you compare it to other DPS cooldowns,
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Nibbon's Avatar

07.31.2013 , 10:11 AM | #38
I've seen a lot of great (and not so great) ideas pop up, so I wanted to highlight some that I particularly like in short format so it doesn't get too lost in space like my first post probably did.

edit: sorted list from highest priority to lowest. Double edit, inserted proof shots of regen "bug" and included a new higher priority list item.
  • Let's just tie the execute to project - have it do 100% additional damage on targets below 30% health - I think this would fix the vast majority of issues people have with this class in both PvE and PvP. It would also make project a lot more useful, rather than just "when we are on the move, can't stop, and have used all our other free casts."
  • I'd like to point out a bug as well - this needs to be fixed to help with force regen - currently the alacrity skill in the heal tree does not increase force regen, it only lowers cast time - obviously this hurts our force overall quite a bit in all specs (particularly heal and balance/madness)
    edit: including some pictures to help explain:
    extra 2% on alacrity (causing faster casting) but not boosting force regen
  • Dot protection would be great for PvP and not effect PvE at all, so I think it should be added in some form.
  • I feel like Balance AoE is extremely weak - and not to mention can really burn away force. Would love for forcequake to be more worthwhile to cast - right now I think it is more worthwhile to spam TT on one target than cast forcequake on 3 targets.
  • A new free heal for heal spec - again, my personal preference is to tie it to life saving - so only usable on targets with 30% health or less
  • Recklnessness gives 100% chance crit - it is a very small change that would make me happy.
  • If people really think madness/balance needs a force buff - the best idea I've seen so far is tying it to disturbance/lightning strike - I think that making it a free cast would do the trick, since you are basically gaining force regen on it GCD cast time. This would also ensure that disturbance becomes part of the rotation, some people still ignore it. This can easily be implemented by just putting it on the skill tree where you get the instant cast on proc in the first place.
  • I also like the idea of giving force bend 2 stacks (or the ability to stack)
  • We lack any real defensive cooldowns, i.e. abilities that we can cast that do not interrupt our GCD (force mend and force armor are heals, not cooldowns).
  • Damage reflect on force barrier - I like this idea, but it shouldn't be as severe as stated - perhaps reflects 10% of incoming damage back at attacker would be a cool change - would need to be adjusted for PvE though to prevent doom from automatically killing the DG, for example.
  • The only idea I like so far of making TK more mobile is a blink (I'd think one that can only be casted every minute or so at most). Everything else has too many PvE implications. I'm worried that the blink will become OP in huttball.
  • Just throwing this up since it is so requested, though I do not think it is needed, would be the instant CC that we used to have.

And to the person who said Sage healers are tank healers, having an armor buff on our regen doesn't make us tank healers - you can easily just cast that regen on the tank and go back to healing raid ;p Our single target healing abilities do not even come close to commando/scoundrel in our ability to keep a tank up, but that is OK, because that is our role in a raid. We can do it sure, we just aren't as good at doing it.

darthjanus's Avatar

07.31.2013 , 10:41 AM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by Shadowhispers View Post
My second idea is kind of across the board change but will be of most benefit to Lightning because of the reduced CD time.
PolarityShift is a great CD, but lets make it 1 step better and allow all skills to be able to be cast on the move whilst PS is active,
this would be a great addition to lightning in PvP meaning you can still do decent dmg for a short period of time while kiting, or on the reverse, chasing down that pesky healer trying to get out of range/LoS.
I fear this may be a bit overpowered for Polarity Shift, and I would simply be thrilled with TRUE interrupt immunity while it is up, meaning no stuns/knock backs/etc would stop us. For that brief period we have polarity shift up in PVP it should be a signal to our attackers that it would be better to run!
"I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further." - Darth Vader

psybernetic's Avatar

07.31.2013 , 11:09 AM | #40
Having switched from pve to pvp primarily on my sorc thanks to in no small part the 2.0 buffs to Lightning, I'll toss in my 2 cents regarding my spec's state in that aspect of the game.

Obviously, we're a turret spec with mobility issues, but it's less even about mobility than it is being completely shut down if we have even just one melee on us. Depreva's created a thread dedicated to his concerns about dps sorcs/mercs over in the pvp forum which is worth a read and ties into these ideas for making Lightning into a spec that can actually do something if a marauder or juggernaut decides to get up in our face (all the friggin time, in other words).

We have precious few instant casts, namely those that are baseline to the inquisitor class and nothing else. Shock, Affliction, Slow, Speed and self heal are the only ones available to Lightning outside of procced CL. Because of this lack of on-the-go damage, the most we can hope to do when presented with the lovely gift of smashtard is Overload and **** to try and heal up or maybe kill our target if we're lucky. My relatively modest proposal to fix this problem is to have a talent, high enough in the tree to prevent the other specs from taking it, that reduces all cast times to instant while PS is up. Given that PS takes a 2.0 second cast time down to 1.7, it wouldn't be all that much different in pve but will provide the mobility and ability to counter melee needed to not only survive against everyone's favorite glowbat spec, as well as a couple others, in pvp but also aid on movement-heavy boss fights where Lightning tends to suffer, like whatsface in SnV with the shield generators at the start. The cd attached to PS should keep that from becoming op in any real fashion.

I'm not sure why Nibbon is worried about a blink becoming OP in Huttball, when we already have operatives rolling all over, grabbing the ball, dodging traps, etc with no cd other than energy regen, warriors charging or interceding on 10-20 second cooldowns, shieldtechs pulling and charging, snipers rolling every 20 seconds. Honestly, that would put us in line with about half the classes out there if we replaced Speed with a blink.
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