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Our Top 3 Concerns as Sorcerers

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sage / Sorcerer
Our Top 3 Concerns as Sorcerers

DarthEndonae's Avatar


DarthEndonae
08.01.2013 , 10:01 PM | #111
Quote: Originally Posted by Slinnak View Post
What if they made it where you regenerate force significantly while channeling force barrier? I don't think that would be overpowered and personally I can think of tons of times in the past where if I could have replenished force I wouldn't have been forced to fall back.
I could see that as something to spec into, but as a Lightning Sorc, that would be pretty much useless to me, there are other ways to solve the regen issue that other specs are having. I think it would be better if we had a thing where for however long you kept FB, you would get a reduced cast/channel time on your next # of abilities. For example, if I had FB on for 3 seconds, my next 3 casts/channels would have their cast time reduced by either a set or reduced amount, like .5 seconds.

MidichIorian's Avatar


MidichIorian
08.01.2013 , 11:34 PM | #112
As I posted ion that other thread, I think the lack of crowd control is the #1 issue at the moment. Two reasons:

*As a somewhat talentet sorc/sage who used to be able to juggle opponents I've noticed a significant difference since the nerf to electrocute range and then whirlwind, channeling. I think a good player should be able to fight 1 vs 2 or perhaps even 1 vs 3 but nowdays it's requiring an optimal setting, enviroment.

*A 1 vs 1 against a healer is manageable. In a team enviroment however, not so much. I'm not really just blaming heal output either. The main problem, as I see it, is that classes, including sorcs, have had their CC'es/stuns nerfed. I have to approach the healer to stun, which is ridiculous on a ranged class, and whirldwind respects LOS, meaning it's incredibly easy for the healer to just break it during channeling. So it basically comes down to running after the healer and hoping that you can outdps him, which isnt that easy always when the worst healer has a long insta stun and other escapes. Not to mention help from their team mates and perhaps also a tank. Had I been able to insta CC the tank atleast....but no cigar.

Also, did they ninja nerf force managment on sage/sorc? I'm leveling my 6th and things have been feeling really "off" lately.

JDotter's Avatar


JDotter
08.02.2013 , 02:07 AM | #113
Quote: Originally Posted by Kindran View Post
1)The dps is viable, but you are hurting yourself by bringing a Sage / Sorcerer over certain other classes. The fights still can be cleared with Sages / Sorcerers but that is not the problem that I am bringing up. We are outclassed in every way by other ranged dps.

2) The self heal and bubble are not defensives, they are heals. The self heal does not reduce damage and the bubble can be placed on anyone, it is not exclusive to us. I am tired of getting killed in 1 shot by unavoidable damage where other classes can take 2 or more hits depending on if they use a defensive. Before you say this does not happen, Olok the Shadow hits us for 36k damage on his wrist laser burst even after a bubble. Kephess' jump hits for 40k damage even after a bubble. Our barrier cooldown can only save us from 1 hit every 3 minutes, and only on Kephess as you can see that coming. On Olok we are just SoL if we are not protected by Gunslinger shields.

4) Dummy parsing shows a LOT. Yes our dps goes down for a boss fight, but so does everyone else. I don't know why you think PT or Jugg dps is bad, they are doing very well especially compared to Sage / Sorcerer single target dps. Lol, Bring the Player not the Class! Ya until that player just needs to switch to another class to do a lot more dps.

Overall concern as a Sage dps? Gunslingers / Snipers are virtually required to clear NiM content and you have a far easier time clearing content by shelving a Sage / Sorcerer to gain a Gunslinger / Sniper. I would love to see a 16man raid group clear NiM content with only 1 Gunslinger or none at all. First 3 bosses in TFB and first 2 in S_V can be done, but I don't see others after that unless they out gear the fights.

The problem is not there on farming, but on progression, and this is what matters most to raiding guilds.
1. Looking at it like that yes. To say you have to have a sniper over a sorc to kill NM content at a world pace no. Metric wise yes we are bottom of the chart.

2. Not defensive but only we get to use them, I don't do 16M raiding anymore but I've never been one shotted by the listed mechanics. They do leave me at 5-10% HP however

3. They aren't bad I'm a firm believer that you can clear content at a world pace with any AC/group comp if the players play said AC in a top 1-5%. Agree that its easier to just bring "FOTM" class and do progression content. Parsing only goes so far day/out I'd take player A over player B if Player A was 100 dps lower on a dummy but had near flawless raid mechanics. Yes Lighting parses higher yet on fights lighting sorcs struggle due to real application instead of afk press buttons on a dummy. Maybe I'm just trying to poke at lighting players that go lol madness suckzors.

4. Hard to say considering no one will ever do this because perceived weakness. Week to week I have to get my dps to hold on multiple bosses so yes while metrically better 200-600 dps (300-500k) won't make you not kill a boss. It helps but thats silly.


I'm not disagreeing that we need to be brought up to snipers/mara but to act like we get took over a class is silly and an excuse.

JDotter's Avatar


JDotter
08.02.2013 , 02:17 AM | #114
Quote: Originally Posted by AdmiralParmesan View Post
You have to consider the implications of those cooldowns versus other defensive abilities. Force mend and constant static barrier maintenance consume a lot of globals that you could otherwise use be doing damage. The majority of the defensive mitigation cooldowns within swotr are not affected by global cooldown and so there is no damage lose from using them. Furthermore these cooldowns are dramatically less effective in pvp due to the 35% healing debuff trama and the mara/sniper healing debuff. Perhaps those two heals might help you in a raid but in a warzone they are significantly less effective. Static barrier and force mend simply do not compare to raw damage mitigation when being focused in pvp.

It is worth noting however that these two abilities are considerably stronger in corruption spec than either dps spec.
Sorcs are nearly impossible to kill in a warzone. While melee classes that have "real" CD's have to venture into the real frontline and face mezzez, stuns, CC, AoE's, while sorcs get to afk in the big range lol fest that is voidstar, and hypergates.

A sorc paired with a good tank/team usually won't they die unless they make a massive positional mistake and or the other team is that much better.

Only CD I'd agree is broke/needs rework is undying rage (limit % of heals received for time period)

In theory if a sorc is getting focused by melee classes the player is out of position or the melee is out of position and needs to be stunned and focused.

Imbik's Avatar


Imbik
08.02.2013 , 02:33 AM | #115
Good ideas psi. Though madness is not supposed to have burst (read now its okay), its a dot spec, the true problem is a force management u mentioned. Maybe if force lightning would add more force (like 2 times more, now it only holds u on the surface, but u cant actually do much more), shield cost less force, it would help.
Palino TOFN

judgeender's Avatar


judgeender
08.02.2013 , 10:26 AM | #116
For background, I am primarily focused on PvE. I do a fair amount of regular PvP but almost no ranked PvP. I run both a dps Sage and dps Sorc in Nightmare content and have completed the timed run for NiM TFB and am currently 5/7 in NIM S&V. I primarily play Balance/Madness. With that background, my concerns are primarily focused on PvE, though they also have impact on PvP.

1) Are the Developers satisfied with the survivability of the Sorc?

Concerns: Sorcs have light armor. A number of Operation Bosses have mechanics where either the entire Operation or random members take damage. Many of those attacks are reduced by armor (ex. Kephess’s dreadbomb attack, Titan 6’s lots of missiles, Thrasher’s snipers). The difference in damage taken by Sorc compared to other dps or healers can be fairly drastic. We have seen many sages that were short 1 or 2 pieces of 72 gear get 1-shot by Kephess simply because they barely lacked the health to survive. Other classes don't fact that problem due to higher armor. Other classes take less damage and have multiple defensive cooldowns that can cut down a percentage of the damage taken thereby increasing their survivability to those mechanics.

A significant number of Operation Bosses also have a final burn phase where the boss starts putting out periodic damage to everyone in the operation. It becomes a matter of whether the Operation can kill the boss before the damage becomes too much for the healers to keep people alive. Unlike other classes that have defensive cooldowns that can mitigate some of this damage prolonging the time within which to get heals before dying a sorc does not have such an option.

The only defensive cooldown a Sorc has is the immunity bubble. While the bubble is 100% immunity it comes with a number of drawbacks. First, unlike every other defensive cooldown in the game, while the bubble is up, a sorc cannot continue to dps the boss. For example, in burn phases at the end, it often comes down to a choice to either use the immunity bubble to live but be unable to help your group until you are healed enough or continue to help the group while hoping that the healers can keep you up. Other classes can use a defensive cooldown to reduce incoming damage, giving healers a chance to heal them, while they continue to dps. Second, to protect from certain attacks, the bubble requires more precise timing than other defensive cooldowns which simply mitigate some of the damage. For example, on Kephess, if he has targeted a sorc for his leap and dreadbomb, if the immunity bubble is used to early, he will change targets, too late and he will do damage. Finally, the immunity bubble is on a very long (3 minute cooldown). There is no guaranty it will be up when needed given the frequency and randomness of these abilities.

The Self-heal and force bubble are not real defensive cooldowns. They require a global cooldown to use (unlike real defensive cooldowns). Additionally, the force bubble may or may not be able to be cast if one was recently used by a healer.



2) Are the Developers satisfied with the burst of the Sorc?

A number of Operation bosses have either short burn phases throughout the fight (ex. Styrak) or burn phases at the end (ex. Writhing Horror, Kephess, Titan VI). Madness sorcs have no execute and very limited ability to provide any burst dps. Importantly, when dealing with very short burn phases (ex. Dreadguard’s phase 1 – burn Ciphas’ shield), the need to apply dots and/or lost dot damage create further problems with Madness Sorcs being able to contribute to those burn phases. Many other classes have an execute and/or the ability to increase their damage for a short period of time. Sorcs really don’t.

Other concerns (discussed by others and I feel less of a concern going forward):

1) Force Regen is a concern on longer fights, particularly those with multiple adds/bosses that must be dpsed at the same time, such as the aforementioned burn phase where something other than the main boss has to be burned down.
2) Better in-game dot tracking. It would be nice to be able to customize the UI to track dots as well as easily see procs that are on the buff bar.


Retsigam (Sorc)
Magister (Sage)
The Shadowlands

AwkwardGinger's Avatar


AwkwardGinger
08.02.2013 , 12:48 PM | #117
Just to point this out, but these are QUESTIONS that we need to be giving the devs, not concerns. Questions like

"Are there any plans to fix madness force management/burst?"

Not

"This is how you fix madness."

skarlson's Avatar


skarlson
08.02.2013 , 01:44 PM | #118
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthEndonae View Post
I could see that as something to spec into, but as a Lightning Sorc, that would be pretty much useless to me, there are other ways to solve the regen issue that other specs are having. I think it would be better if we had a thing where for however long you kept FB, you would get a reduced cast/channel time on your next # of abilities. For example, if I had FB on for 3 seconds, my next 3 casts/channels would have their cast time reduced by either a set or reduced amount, like .5 seconds.
Aything tied to having FB up is useless because it breaks so quickly.
"Unlimited powahahaha! I can't say it..." -Darth Sidious as a Sorcerer

DarthEndonae's Avatar


DarthEndonae
08.02.2013 , 01:50 PM | #119
The Force Barrier thing I suggested is based off of how long it is up, and would be more so that we wouldn't have to choose between DPS and survival.

Quote: Originally Posted by AwkwardGinger View Post
Just to point this out, but these are QUESTIONS that we need to be giving the devs, not concerns. Questions like

"Are there any plans to fix madness force management/burst?"

Not

"This is how you fix madness."
How about: "Can you please fix Madness's burst/force management in they way that we decide is the best?"

lpez's Avatar


lpez
08.02.2013 , 02:34 PM | #120
I got a Sage(Heals), Shadow(Tank), Smuggler(Heals), and Guardian(Tank).
The sage is main, I'm a little more casual than most who have posted here before me.
I have not done any HM ops, nor do I PVP on Ranked Warzones.
I have 2 man EC Zorn an Toth SM, tried my Hand at 2 man KP HM. This may not be the usual places to see a Sage, but they show the limits of it. Have not been able to get past KP HM 1st boss bcz I'm dead with just 1 swipe. Similar situation to NiM sages/sorcs do on Kephess/Titan.

1st
This goes to show my 1st concern and question. We are a light armor class with no real def CD. We can easily be one shot by several attacks in this game, where every other class would just end up in the low life area. FB does not work since as PVP guys put it "It's also a great 10s self stun".
Can we get some more armor and a rework of FB, maybe a 3-5s of 99% immunity while still being able to do something, with a CD of 60-90s.

2nd
Madness/Balance force regen is terrible. Im not a DPS person, but I have given it a try with both skill trees. Lightning/Telekinetics is ez and has none of this problems. While on the other side it is extremely ez to get into a negative force regen rotation for madness/balance.
Could you guys improve the force regen of Madness/Balance?