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Our Top 3 Concerns as Sorcerers

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sage / Sorcerer
Our Top 3 Concerns as Sorcerers

Psirebral's Avatar

07.29.2013 , 07:05 PM | #1
First off I'd like to thank everyone who voted for me, hopefully I can make some good use of this time as Sorcerer Rep and grats to Nibbon for the sage victory. So people don't worry too much about my PvE concern I will be speaking with him closely to make sure that it is not wasted on something trivial. So let's get this started with some ideas and concerns regarding out class. I will not beat around the bush, my main concerns are PvP and how he we can better our class.

Someone mentioned it before as the voting was taking place that I think our class is in a good place. They are right. As far as class balance is concerned I'd say this game is on the right track and has been since 2.0. Granted there are a few things out of wack, I think the sorcerer is in a decent place. Let's make this clear right now. Regardless of how I've acted, how you view me as a person/player, I'm not in anyway shape or form concerned with the petty nonsense. So long as people can keep this civil, I will too (I will regardless but lets not turn it into a flame war). These are peoples opinions and should be treated as such. If you don't agree with them simply state why you don't agree... none of these "yeah well any good sorcerer would say otherwise" passive aggressive ways of telling people they suck. I understand that everyone will want to voice their opinion on this too but lets try to stay away from the "I GOT KILLED BY A MARAUDER SO NERF THEM WE NEED BUFFS LOLOLIMGUD" comments as well. One last thing, if these sorts of people should pop up? Please do your best to ignore them. With all that out of the way lets get to my personal concerns regarding the class.

PvP Spec Concerns

I'm not sure if these should be separate concerns or one in the same but for now I'll do them as one. Lightning and madness are two very drastically different specs and I imagine most people will agree with this. Both specs have strengths and weaknesses. The issue is that their weaknesses are kind of obnoxious and by that I mean they are very evident. I'll start with madness.

Madness Force Issue

The force management. Everyone who plays it in PvP knows it has some serious management problems. Now in the current ranked scene, there is no place for madness. I base this opinion off of the bastion's current ranked scene. There are some extremely skilled teams and ramp up specs just aren't that great to have (minus lethality snipers) which leaves us with lightning and possibly the hybrid. With all the burst flying around, it is almost imperative that you run with lightning if you wish to keep up with the damage. For a second I will forget the ranked warzones and look towards the future 4v4 where I think madness will probably play a much bigger role in the game because of the massive amount of LoS that will be required to compete. In any sustained fight where it isn't really in your best interest to try and wait out the combat timer or if you are just constantly being targeted by dots or leaps then you're going to run out of force. I mentioned in a video of mine that I play fast and loose with my health, that isn't going to be viable in 4v4 because everyone's health bar counts and one lost person could mean a loss.

My suggestion for this is maybe giving us a new talent mechanic that restores force on a small scale (maybe 0.5%). So far I'm stripped for ideas as to how they'd incorporate this BUT I do have one idea. Death field. Give death field's afflicted targets who are also afflicted by dots to restore force. Example: you hit a target with death field and he gets his 15 stacks of extra dot damage received, along with the damage you now get a 0.5% force regen per stack consumed. I'm unaware of how useful madness is in a PvE but I would assume a small force management buff wouldn't make us OP in either respects.

Go ahead and post your suggestions and concerns on this topic!


Madness Burst Issue

Staying on topic with madness I would appreciate if you guys went over to this link here (at 2:28:03). Also let me clarify, I know other people threw out some damage and mean NO disrespect to Hustlez who is a very skilled healer, but, look at how she/he literally disappeared off the screen from a perfectly aligned lightning rotation. Now before you post about how that kind of burst would make madness OP (because it would), that is not my intention. I just think we need some, very little, burst so that we can keep pressure going on healers and self-heal specs. Currently I don't have too many ideas without making it OP in PvE but there is one possibility that might work. Not being so swell at metrics I would suggest you change how crushing darkness works.

Like force crush, cut crushing darkness' tick time and keep its damage the same. Make it tick faster so that it can be used to pressure healers. I reckon it should probably be something that is specced high up into the madness tree (as should my previous suggestion) so that lightning doesn't become insane-er burst. We could even have it tied to death field. I still view madness as revolving almost completely around death field so I don't see why we can't tie it to that as well. This change would also give PvE madness a bit of a burst phase as well for adds that don't last long.

Again, any comments or concerns just post them here.


Lightning Mobility Issue

Lightning the Turret. This spec is in a fantastic place since 2.0 and have little to no quarrels with it. The one I do have with it is how easily it is shut down. I'd even go as far as to say it is easier to shut down than sniper (remember it's an opinion). Between LoS, pulls, knockbacks, and the very low cooldown on interrupts, unless this class gets some peels there is a good possibility it'll be kiting and doing nothing in the meantime. Snipers are the same way but can be 100% immune to interrupts, CC and knock backs. My coming suggestion could potentially make our class a power house but it is worth a shot.

My suggested fix is to make us similar to a arsenal mercenary. Make it so that every 5 casts of lightning strike we get a choice. We can instant cast our big heal or small (if big is deemed too OP) instantly or an instant thundering blast. I also have a few ideas as to how to keep it in check aside from giving it a 1-2 minute cooldown

-Add a longer cooldown to thundering blast if it is casted instantly
-Drop its damage by a small amount (5% maybe?)
-Put an internal cooldown on gaining stacks
-Don't allow each stack to lower its cast time, make it so you have to have 5 stacks to instant either of the casts

Other than that I feel lightning is in a good place right now, but that doesn't mean you should simply take my word for it. If you think lightning needs something then post about it.

Note: I've been playing my mercenary a bit and I've noticed, that should heat seeker and a few other abilities crit, I can almost destroy one persons entire health bar while still moving.

PvE Heal Concerns

Please don't be too upset by the shortness of the PvE section but I don't PvE and it doesn't get nearly as much thought as it should but I do hate some aspects of our class when it comes to PvE healing.

Resurgence Issue

Resurgence is the most worthless mechanic I have ever seen. Wasting a GCD on a heal that does very little just so that your other talents don't bankrupt your force is extremely dumb in my opinion. Possible changes to this mechanic:

-Lower or take it off the GCD
-Increase the healing ticks and armor granted a little more
-Give it two charges that can be used as you please. (IE one on innervate and one on quick heal)


Anyway guys these are just the ideas I have as of now. I will be in Arizona this coming weekend and won't have much time to play so I'll spend most of it coming up with ideas and the like to better our class in both aspects. I'll also get Nibbon's contact info and collaborate with him or however they plan on doing this. Either way, this class will not be left in the dust, and be sure to post your ideas and concerns!

OldSpiceSwag's Avatar

07.29.2013 , 07:59 PM | #2
im glad i voted you because these are pretty much the biggest issues with the sorc atm.

i think you're spot one with madness force regen. i dont play madness anymore but each death mark consumed should give us back 1% force, not .5%. i dont think .5% will really do enough, i'd even like 1.5% or maybe even 2%, but that might be a little much. however, since we dont have a way to spread dots around easily like shrap bomb besides tab dotting, it might not be a little much.

i dont play madness at all so i cant comment on the burst part.

the lightning mobility issue is also one of my top concerns for sorc, and i mean top. the sorc, without any defensive cd, NEEDS to kite to survive. but, the whole spec relies on channeled burst, so if you get pressured, you
a) need heals and probably a guard thrown on you, because with no dedicated DCD we are arguably the squishiest class in the game (and i mean after we barrier: for example, any good arena team is going to make a sorc barrier, then absolutely pressure the f out of him for 3 min to get the tank to swap guard to him and the healer to tunnel heal him).
b) wont be able to put out much of any damage with a mara up your butt

sorry, but i really dont like your suggestions for this. the instant heal is useful but in arena it wont mean very much, plus we already have an instant heal. the thunderblast instant is nice, and i dont think op, but having to cast 5 lightning strikes is a little overkill and a waste of gcds; when i play lightning i usually ONLY lightning strike once before i thundering blast so that i get a chain lightning proc either from the lightning strike or the thundering blast, ensuring i have at least one to follow up the TB relatively quickly. other than that lightning strike is just the filler setup move. now honestly i have no idea if this will be a good idea, but to make the class truly mobile, reduce the damage done by lightning strike by a relatively decent margin, and make it instant.

for the healing part, i agree with what you said about resurgence: literally its only purpose is to make your other heals work well, while not doing almost anything on its own. but ive typed too much at this point to think of any ideas so bye

Nibbon's Avatar

07.29.2013 , 09:44 PM | #3
Congratulations to Psirebral as well. We have already exchanged information, I look forward to working together and exchanging ideas.

I know we will talk more behind the scenes, but I wanted to talk about how what you suggested could specifically effect PvE.

From the top:
-Madness force management buff - Madness does have some problems with force management. If I were to do a fight with my perfect rotation I would normally run out of force around the 6-7 minute mark. There are very few fights that last that long. In PvE, madness is my preference, but lightning can put out slightly more DPS on more static fights. My opinion is madness is better for PvE. I wouldn't mind a slight buff to my force - but chaincasting force lightning will restore force without too big a DPS loss - as long as you are staying above 15% force or so without interrupting your rotation, you can just cut out lightning strike from your rotation and be force positive. I guess my point is, if you buffed our force management, it wouldn't create any imbalances and would make the class much easier to play ... not sure if I want it easier to play though

-Madness burst issue - Meh, I don't know if we have that big a burst issue, per se. We can actually do quite good burst with some cooldowns up: it is a little hard to see - but I was bursting 3.5k on average for the first 20 seconds of a parse, I think that is pretty good burst. That being said, it can only be achieved with cooldowns. I think we have a bigger problem finishing people off - what we really need more than anything is an execute ability. (Edit/note: I wanted to specifically mention that I am still talking about PvE here, though I think that it may apply to PvP too, execute is something I have wanted for PvE purposes as much as PvP).

-Madness burst part 2, buff to crushing darkness - This idea for crushing darkness (shorten length same damage) is actually exactly something I suggested for PvE, so I really like it. I like it not because it fixes burst, though, my main purpose was to simplify the rotation a bit. The worry is that you don't want death field to eat up the CD dots since they tick for less. If they did the same amount of damage, it would make the rotation quite a bit simpler (not that I think it is too difficult, but a few people do).

-Lightning mobility issue - not in love with your suggestions here with the PvE implications. Lightning is the turret spec, I am not sure why a turret spec needs more mobility. Just to go over some of your specific points in more detail ...

My suggested fix is to make us similar to a arsenal mercenary. Make it so that every 5 casts of lightning strike we get a choice. We can instant cast our big heal or small (if big is deemed too OP) instantly or an instant thundering blast. I also have a few ideas as to how to keep it in check aside from giving it a 1-2 minute cooldown
-Thundering blast might work ... I need to think about it more. The heal component wouldn't be too great, but there is nothing wrong with giving a choice.

-Add a longer cooldown to thundering blast if it is casted instantly
-This would kill it as a PvE spec since it is a main component of the rotation - this shouldn't be considered
-Drop its damage by a small amount (5% maybe?)
-Same thing, any drop to the TK spec would hurt its viability in a raid.
-Put an internal cooldown on gaining stacks
-Seems much more viable - especially when combined with below
-Don't allow each stack to lower its cast time, make it so you have to have 5 stacks to instant either of the casts
-Same, seems much more viable, especially when combined with the above - the end result is not really effecting PvE too much but helping with the immobility in PvP. The only hesitation is that any added mobility for TK in PvE takes away the advantages balance has, but if the stacks were infrequent enough, that would help.

-PvE/Healing resurgence concern - I really don't think that resurgence has a problem. We are HoT healers - between revivification and resurgence and innervate, most of our heals are ticks. Resurgence actually heals a lot of damage. Healers may make the mistake of casting it on the same person (the tank) when healing, really it should be spread (Every other). Resurgence as a heal is fine, probably more of a skill issue here. Of what you suggested, giving resurgence two charges probably makes the most sense. When we need some burst healing, mixing in fast heals and the regular big heal is the best way - or throwing up the alacrity boost. Again, I don't really think a change in this issue is needed.
-What I'd like to see from healers is a better ability to tank heal. Something that might help is an emergency life saving heal - like a heal that does 1.5X the amount when tank is under 20% health (perhaps on the small heal - add it as a component) ... or just a new heal entirely that has a long cooldown that is an instant life saving heal.

I think that covers everything, some good ideas in here that could help both PvP and PvE without throwing off balance too much. I look forward to speaking with you more.

Copperheadr's Avatar

07.30.2013 , 01:11 AM | #4
Congratulations Bioware for this idea, I think it will build community, and also grats to Psirebral and Nibbon, I feel these threads will produce valuable info for us, the players and maybe good feedback to the dev(s).

Former Bria resident.

FrumpytheClown's Avatar

07.30.2013 , 02:01 AM | #5
Congratulations to the victor. It was a good race and I tip my hat to you.

Yes, Madness needs some attention. Sure our Force Lightning is SUPPOSED to regenerate our Force but it is not effective enough at doing so. They shortened our Electrocute rage to only 10 meters? They removed our Instant Whirl Wind for only a .6 second reduction in time if 2 points are in it?
I do great damage as a Madness, but in Ranked we are useless! For sustained ANYTHING we are useless. For CC, we are useless.
"Peace is a lie, there is only Passion..." Ghandi was peaceful, now he is dead. Ghangis Khan was passionate and nearly conquered the known world.

Chemic_al's Avatar

07.30.2013 , 03:02 AM | #6
Yes, congratulations Psi.

I am not out to make sorcs the next FoTM class. Far from it, I want to see sorcs have abilities on par with other ACs, or if we don't get it, then some compensating factor. I don't believe sorcs "are fine", I do believe they have one of the highest skill caps for what is in my opinion, an under-performing class. They have been successively nerfed for many patches, with little to compensate.

I for one do not think damage is where it needs to be. Part of the problem stems from Bioware's instance that stuff has to be the same PvP and PvE instead of balancing abilities and damage around the two environments. We have the lowest mitigation, no defensives, and dps is the easiest to shut down. Our kiting tools are laughable in the face of the multitude of roots, snares, mezzes, stuns and anti-kiting tools given to other classes. Hell, other classes have abilities that completely shut down our damage, like shroud and sabre reflect. In return we get nothing that can do that to anyone else. I'm not counting barrier here, because that is a self-cc as well.
We need to actually put out the most burst damage to balance our weaknesses.

Sorry but a 7.5k thundering blast with a 2s cast time with all the drawbacks that entails (LoS, interrupt,cc), is a bad joke when you are faced with 9k mauls, smashes, takedowns, vicious throws etc. Yes you can proc, chain lightning, but hey procs are not reliable. You can't even guarantee the crit on the blast because the affliction can be cleansed. Smashers get their crit regardless for instance.

As the mage archetype where are our mage like immunities (damage reflect, immunty etc),? We have laughable cc compared to other classes. We lost our 30m stun when it would have been trivial to keep 10m on sin and powertech and leave 30m for merc and sorc. Polarity Shift is nice, but really, if they can just chuck a cc on us when we use it, what's the point, if we have to wait until we're at full resolve to use it? Most of the times I'm hitting full resolve I'm in respawn watching it drain away.

And would it really hurt to give us back willpower bonus damage to our two melee moves?

I'd also point out I think the pvp dps set bonus is rather meh compared to other classes.

Madness, parasitism is an utter joke. Now, if it was a proper life leech ability, rather on crits, each tick gave you a decent chunk of health back, or death mark ticks were guaranteed crits, then it might be worthwhile. Force lightning needs to be buffed. It should gain 10% per *your* dot on the target, and if all 3 are on the target make the channel unable to be uninterrupted.
Others have mentioned the force regen problem. Yes, instant whirlwind needs to be given back, but not for sins, they have their stealth mez.
Creeping terror should be a 5s root, since all the good kiting stuff is in lightning the turret spec It is also a somewhat meh, easily cleansible 31 point talent.
And lastly we need to have something comparable to lethality - dots don't break whirlwind and tick for more on targets under 30% health.
Oh yes, death field must only eat your own dots. And something to help keep track of dots would be nice, some slight change in the colour or something so you know when you are when there are 3 afflictions ticking. Death field really needs to hit harder.
And lastly a PvE thing but fix death field on Operator IX cores already.

Lightning, too easily shut down. When melee are in your face good luck trying to cast. TB has to made instant somehow and not based on more RNG proc. Chain Lightning should root for 2s. TB needs to hit harder. Sure when the stars align and everything crits, and you sacrificed a chicken to the RNG God, you put out some scary burst, but that's the problem when you're talking about PvP specs, you need something you can rely on.

Edit: oh yes, please please please please please fix the whole casting animation no cast bug. Bad enough trying to get thundering off under pressure only to find you're not even casting it at all.
<Sithhiker's Guide to the Galaxy>
Jung Ma

DarthEndonae's Avatar

07.30.2013 , 04:21 AM | #7
I would love a thing where you could tell which DoT was yours. I'd also like to see the number of seconds left on a DoT without having to roll over it/guess. Maybe you could solve both and just have your DoTs have the countdown on them. A slight damage boost couldn't hurt either. I like the insta-TB idea.

Nibbon's Avatar

07.30.2013 , 07:25 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthEndonae View Post
I would love a thing where you could tell which DoT was yours. I'd also like to see the number of seconds left on a DoT without having to roll over it/guess. Maybe you could solve both and just have your DoTs have the countdown on them. A slight damage boost couldn't hurt either. I like the insta-TB idea.
As you and the previous poster said - dot tracking is the biggest pain in the game. There are tools to help (tor assistant is one I use), so I think the problem can be overcome ... but more tools in game would be nice to have. The bigger issue is the fact that other sorcs can eat your death field charges - this may not be too unbalancing but it is super obnoxious, especially when you have weak healer dots or lightning dots eating up your much stronger madness dots.

warstory's Avatar

07.30.2013 , 09:10 AM | #9
Lightning getting shutdown is a big concern! And also the range on the stun on our force shield being broken is laughable. I can't tell u how many times I position myself so when the shield goes off it stuns so I can get a cast and nothing.
Miss fires on our cast has gotten me killed so many times I stopped counting.

When my barrier is up can it deal dmg back to the attacker when I get attacked plz!
"Surely you know I could kill you just as easily with my lightsaber as I could with the force "

kennethdale's Avatar

07.30.2013 , 11:27 AM | #10
The only big issue I see with your points is regarding the stacking buff from lightning strike you suggest. Arsenal mercs get a buff that stacks to increase the damage done of one of their lower dps abilities (since the set bonus nerf to the set bonus its hard to justify using rail shot other than with a 5 stack of target tracking) while reducing the cast time of our biggest hitting attack (a huge portion of lightnings dps) just sounds op. Perhaps instead buff the damage of shock or increase the chance to proc a second, increase its crit chance etc because as it stands shock it sort of a weird spell in that it doesn't hit hard enough to truly be considered part of your rotation unless moving, but if you could guarantee a double hit or a crit it would be a lot more worthwhile.
55 Mercenary { Drekevac } rDPS || 55 Marauder { Kryu } mDPS
55 Sorcerer { Jahaerys } Heal
55 Juggernaut { Caryu } Tank || 55 Assassin { Vellys } Tank