Me and the guys I do rated with have pretty much encountered the same situation every time we do 4v4 rateds: run over a lot of teams and then finally end up against a team that has anywhere from 1-3 PT/VG's and then we lose every game. Typically we are running the standard 2x marasmash, jugg tank, op healer when we run into them, though we have tried some 2x sniper comps and a few random other things with no success.

Pt's are one of the 2 classes I don't have at 55 so I have no idea how to counter this or how they are even winning. They seem to have a lot of aoe damage, aoe reduction, and taunts/guard swaps available.

Between the 4 of us we have a lot of operatives, a couple sorcs, a couple snipers, a couple maras, a sin, a couple juggs (1 can only tank) and a pt (he can only tank).

Is it possible for us to beat teams with multiple hybrid VG/PTs with any comp we can run? What comp and strategy should we be looking at?

range them and cc when youre about to get cleaved

Gotta be more specific, I don't even know what the cleave is that they are doing. Sounds like u think 2x sniper is the way to go.

Gotta be more specific, I don't even know what the cleave is that they are doing. Sounds like u think 2x sniper is the way to go.

cleave is the prototpye flame thrower or pulse cannon that slows you and does a ton of damage. double snipers might work but quad madness is always the best comp in every situation

Between taunt stacking and the AOE damage reduction, dongcleave is pretty much a smash team's worst nightmare atm.

Your best bet to counter might be lightning sorcs for DPS, but they will have to know what they're doing. The dongcleavers will of course want to pull and 3v1 gank the sorcs, but the mezbubble pops in their faces and buys the sorcs time to eat the stun (without necessarily having to burn trinkets/barrier, that is very important) and escape. They've also got root overload up more often than the dongcleavers have hydraulic overrides. The sorcs can counter-pull as well.

While the pull victim sorc is escaping, the rest of the sorc DPS can outrange the dongcleave.

Some more food for thought, I also bubblemez-hybrid-healed against a 3v4 with smashers on the other side in a rated arena yesterday (had a DPS sorc in my group too), as the bubble kept popping just when the smashers thought they were gonna smash thereby buying me just enough time to heal to full, so you may want to consider how a bubblemez healer sorc might synergize with 2 lightning when the dongcleavers are on. Though a healer will sacrifice burst healing to get it, the bubblemez is probably the best defense sorcs have atm. Full corruption won't be worth bringing unless you feel you need the 3rd extricate, and if the dongcleavers try to yank-and-gank the full corruption sorc, one of the DPS sorcs will have to counter-pull immediately.

Just be aware that as a general rule of thumb, sorcs require 200% more effort to get 85% of the result of the usual braindead comps. When they know what they're doing and work well together, however, the result can be absolutely delightful.

Have 1 or both of your maras go carnage and stick on a VG until he is dead while CCing the healer. Single target burst is their counter.

Also make sure your maras always spec into AOE damage reduction, regardless of spec. I run into a lot of them that don't.

Also instead of a jug you might have more success your VG tank as a tactics tank, even in tank gear (until he gets dps gear). The AOE reduction and additional damage will make him tankier and put out more pressure.

Have 1 or both of your maras go carnage and stick on a VG until he is dead while CCing the healer. Single target burst is their counter.

 

exactly this i would recommend 2 carnage marauders, wait until they group up, your team has superior aoe CC and carnage destroys hybrid pt (as long as he dont have full tank gear)

We created a monster, i should have convinced Nectebo to never play Tactics Vanguard.

DongCleave was created as the ultimate tool against Marauders and guarded operative healers. Its a way of trolling the FOTM metagame that actually has become part of the metagame itself.

The Dong science relies in getting 2 or more players in the dong cannon (pulse cannon / flame thrower). This way, the dongers dont need to worry about guard or classes with insane defensive cds (hello marauder), as long you are donging two people at once, your team will eventually win. If a guarded OP healer gets in the same dong cannon as the Jugg tank, no matter how healing is done, the tank is going to die because of unhealable guard damage or the healer will strecth out to heal the unhealable dong and get killed himself.

At first, the Dong was playing alone but we soon realised that to achieve Dongmination we should retard mode and just put in MOAR DONGS. Thats my (and Dongzapper/Nectebo's, the original captain of Dongsquad) biggest critique to the game balance: the metagame pratically forces you to go full mongo. MOAR DONG = GOOD, MORE THINKING = NOT EFFECTIVE. Yolo.

So the way we found to improve our already decently strong comp in the PTS was to..... GET MOAR DONG. The second incarnation of Dongcleave had 2 Dongs and 1 APTANK (another Donger). The sage healer had to be dropped out for a scoundrel healer, because only the sheer strenght of sawbones makes it possible to accomodate the APTANK (moar dong!). Dongcleave was complete and everyone started to notice it. I really think everyone that plays APTANK cleave or Dongcleave today should mail 10 bucks to Nectebo's paypal or something because no one played AP and he was the first to use the way of the Dong.

That being said, Dongcleave is a metagame abomination, it doesnt take skill to play but has some specific weaknesses:

- Dong lacks an execute and single target burst damage, if you stay out of the melt cannon they wont have the punch to finish people.

- Stay out of the cannon. Dont let 2 people in the cannon at once.

- Dong is the ultimate counter of Marauders because LOMARA tends to "wander" inside the Dong. Get smarter Marauders.

Wizard Cleave (or any team that plays scaterred tru the map) is the ultimate counter to Dong. The problem is that, with mercs / sorcs being ridiculously weak and underpowered (in sustainability and not damage. Caster damage is fine or very close to. Caster sustainability, which is the ability to stay in the battlefield without getting shutdown and slaughtered on the spot, is what makes us bad), the suposed counter doesnt work as it should be.

The fact that the PTS version of the original Dongcleave beat Mudcloth's Wizards more than the Wizards beat them is a testament to shoddy class balance. Dongcleave is a straight up abomination and should get DESTROYED on the spot by good Wizards because the comp lacks any sense of balance, especially taking on the consideration that (IMHO) the players who were doing Wizards in the PTS cleary outskilled the players who were doing the second version of Dong in the PTS by far (double AP, APTANK, op healer).

Wizards can beat the Dong, but this is the point that class balance screws with the metagame without even taking him to dinner first. To consistenly beat Dong you have to have the best Wizards in the world and still you will struggle (have to play perfectly and still lose rounds here and there due to melee general enpowerment).

Bad class balance = bad metagame. Lets see how much time it takes until the combat team finally wakes up.

Me and the guys I do rated with have pretty much encountered the same situation every time we do 4v4 rateds: run over a lot of teams and then finally end up against a team that has anywhere from 1-3 PT/VG's and then we lose every game. Typically we are running the standard 2x marasmash, jugg tank, op healer when we run into them, though we have tried some 2x sniper comps and a few random other things with no success.

 

Pt's are one of the 2 classes I don't have at 55 so I have no idea how to counter this or how they are even winning. They seem to have a lot of aoe damage, aoe reduction, and taunts/guard swaps available.

 

Between the 4 of us we have a lot of operatives, a couple sorcs, a couple snipers, a couple maras, a sin, a couple juggs (1 can only tank) and a pt (he can only tank).

Is it possible for us to beat teams with multiple hybrid VG/PTs with any comp we can run? What comp and strategy should we be looking at?

As rage marauders you will not win against equally geared and skilled AP PT. AP is strong against melee in general. Ranged, snipers specifically, are pretty effective against PTs. Sin tanks also tend to work better against PT than the other two tanks. Most important thing is to interrupt flame thrower. You need to try to align your CCes to interrupt it.

Wizards can beat the Dong,

This sums up a completely otherwise awesome post.

We created a monster, i should have convinced Nectebo to never play Tactics Vanguard.

 

DongCleave was created as the ultimate tool against Marauders and guarded operative healers. Its a way of trolling the FOTM metagame that actually has become part of the metagame itself.

 

The Dong science relies in getting 2 or more players in the dong cannon (pulse cannon / flame thrower). This way, the dongers dont need to worry about guard or classes with insane defensive cds (hello marauder), as long you are donging two people at once, your team will eventually win. If a guarded OP healer gets in the same dong cannon as the Jugg tank, no matter how healing is done, the tank is going to die because of unhealable guard damage or the healer will strecth out to heal the unhealable dong and get killed himself.

 

At first, the Dong was playing alone but we soon realised that to achieve Dongmination we should retard mode and just put in MOAR DONGS. Thats my (and Dongzapper/Nectebo's, the original captain of Dongsquad) biggest critique to the game balance: the metagame pratically forces you to go full mongo. MOAR DONG = GOOD, MORE THINKING = NOT EFFECTIVE. Yolo.

 

So the way we found to improve our already decently strong comp in the PTS was to..... GET MOAR DONG. The second incarnation of Dongcleave had 2 Dongs and 1 APTANK (another Donger). The sage healer had to be dropped out for a scoundrel healer, because only the sheer strenght of sawbones makes it possible to accomodate the APTANK (moar dong!). Dongcleave was complete and everyone started to notice it. I really think everyone that plays APTANK cleave or Dongcleave today should mail 10 bucks to Nectebo's paypal or something because no one played AP and he was the first to use the way of the Dong.

 

That being said, Dongcleave is a metagame abomination, it doesnt take skill to play but has some specific weaknesses:

 

- Dong lacks an execute and single target burst damage, if you stay out of the melt cannon they wont have the punch to finish people.

 

- Stay out of the cannon. Dont let 2 people in the cannon at once.

 

- Dong is the ultimate counter of Marauders because LOMARA tends to "wander" inside the Dong. Get smarter Marauders.

 

Wizard Cleave (or any team that plays scaterred tru the map) is the ultimate counter to Dong. The problem is that, with mercs / sorcs being ridiculously weak and underpowered (in sustainability and not damage. Caster damage is fine or very close to. Caster sustainability, which is the ability to stay in the battlefield without getting shutdown and slaughtered on the spot, is what makes us bad), the suposed counter doesnt work as it should be.

 

The fact that the PTS version of the original Dongcleave beat Mudcloth's Wizards more than the Wizards beat them is a testament to shoddy class balance. Dongcleave is a straight up abomination and should get DESTROYED on the spot by good Wizards because the comp lacks any sense of balance, especially taking on the consideration that (IMHO) the players who were doing Wizards in the PTS cleary outskilled the players who were doing the second version of Dong in the PTS by far (double AP, APTANK, op healer).

 

Wizards can beat the Dong, but this is the point that class balance screws with the metagame without even taking him to dinner first. To consistenly beat Dong you have to have the best Wizards in the world and still you will struggle (have to play perfectly and still lose rounds here and there due to melee general enpowerment).

 

Bad class balance = bad metagame. Lets see how much time it takes until the combat team finally wakes up.

This is the best forum post, ever. Dongcleave FTW!

Me and the guys I do rated with have pretty much encountered the same situation every time we do 4v4 rateds: run over a lot of teams and then finally end up against a team that has anywhere from 1-3 PT/VG's and then we lose every game. Typically we are running the standard 2x marasmash, jugg tank, op healer when we run into them, though we have tried some 2x sniper comps and a few random other things with no success.

 

Pt's are one of the 2 classes I don't have at 55 so I have no idea how to counter this or how they are even winning. They seem to have a lot of aoe damage, aoe reduction, and taunts/guard swaps available.

 

Between the 4 of us we have a lot of operatives, a couple sorcs, a couple snipers, a couple maras, a sin, a couple juggs (1 can only tank) and a pt (he can only tank).

Is it possible for us to beat teams with multiple hybrid VG/PTs with any comp we can run? What comp and strategy should we be looking at?

Respec your maras into Carnage instead of Rage and win

Btw, your setup have 4 (!) aoe mezz, so chain cc all, and kill one after another.

Also, do not unload your burst while the PT/VG is stunned, AP/Tactics has a 30% damage reduction while stunned on top of the 30% AOE damage reduction... and they both stack.

Ya. When shield is active and I am CCed on my PT, I typically get hit by 2K smashes

Also, contrary to the believe, AP PT has pretty strong single target damage, but is on quite long CD. There is nothing like continuously hitting the target, while using shoulder cannon, dot and explosive fuel. This can easily avg. 4-5K dps for 10-15 secs. Of course SC is on 90 sec CD and explosive fuel is on 115 sec CD, but when available, PT can pull huge damage in such a short period, without using flame thrower.

Ya. When shield is active and I am CCed on my PT, I typically get hit by 2K smashes

 

Also, contrary to the believe, AP PT has pretty strong single target damage, but is on quite long CD. There is nothing like continuously hitting the target, while using shoulder cannon, dot and explosive fuel. This can easily avg. 4-5K dps for 10-15 secs. Of course SC is on 90 sec CD and explosive fuel is on 115 sec CD, but when available, PT can pull huge damage in such a short period, without using flame thrower.

I honestly think AP is the strongest spec in the game atm, it has great AOE and single target damage, tons of control through pull, taunts, and slows, solid DCDs, and amazing passive defense.

Once everyone catches on I fully expect a massive wave of QQ.

I honestly think AP is the strongest spec in the game atm, it has great AOE and single target damage, tons of control through pull, taunts, and slows, solid DCDs, and amazing passive defense.

 

Once everyone catches on I fully expect a massive wave of QQ.

I agree its on the boarder line of being OP, but considering that flame thrower is easily avoidable and interpretable, much of the "burst" can be avoided. The spec can still pull reasonable damage without it, but it is not remotely scary when it gets interrupted often.

Dongcleave Stuff

Fun read and interesting angle on the class metagame. Smash comp hates the Dong for obvious paper/rock/scissors reasons.

I honestly think AP is the strongest spec in the game atm, it has great AOE and single target damage, tons of control through pull, taunts, and slows, solid DCDs, and amazing passive defense.

It's really not. It is a strong spec, but far from the strongest. It has no execute, so no real reliable burst. And PFT is easy and obvious to thwart. Only nubs eat a full PFT.

I agree its on the boarder line of being OP, but considering that flame thrower is easily avoidable and interpretable, much of the "burst" can be avoided. The spec can still pull reasonable damage without it, but it is not remotely scary when it gets interrupted often.

Nope. Nowhere near OP. AP is formidable at best, especially when it's primary skill can be easily stopped as you point out.

We created a monster. I really think everyone that plays APTANK cleave or Dongcleave today should mail 10 bucks to Nectebo's paypal or something because no one played AP and he was the first to use the way of the Dong.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOzEFL-1bZk <---- 10 months old

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ezoGOxpX9o <---- 10 months old

I love how i made a thread about ion stance/ap play almost a year ago and got severly burned for being a noob, then made youtube videos about it just for fun and once again got burned, now suddenly you are the gods of video gaming and have created this beast idea? I hope you are trolling buddy.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOzEFL-1bZk <---- 10 months old

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ezoGOxpX9o <---- 10 months old

Back before arena came out, I said that AP Tank was gonna be the strongest tank for arena, and was burned on that too

Even without the buffs, the spec would have been a strong tank, as they did fine dmg before.

I love how i made a thread about ion stance/ap play almost a year ago and got severly burned for being a noob, then made youtube videos about it just for fun and once again got burned, now suddenly you are the gods of video gaming and have created this beast idea? I hope you are trolling buddy.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOzEFL-1bZk <---- 10 months old

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ezoGOxpX9o <---- 10 months old

We already used APtanks in some rated matches one year ago before the third round of merges. While it could be effective it was clearly outclassed by the jugg tank main fight / hybrid shadow lone wolf meta.

Dongzapper's innovation wasnt actually using the aptank, it was playing full AP dps to a level no one can play even today. I have already said the only reason APTANK is viable is because of operative healers being what they are.

Remove the operative healer and aptank becomes very awkward.

We already used APtanks in some rated matches one year ago before the third round of merges. While it could be effective it was clearly outclassed by the jugg tank main fight / hybrid shadow lone wolf meta.

 

Dongzapper's innovation wasnt actually using the aptank, it was playing full AP dps to a level no one can play even today. I have already said the only reason APTANK is viable is because of operative healers being what they are.

 

Remove the operative healer and aptank becomes very awkward.

APTank is viable because of the passive 30% AOE and passive 30% DR to all damage while stunned, it effectively negates the concept of using AOE damage to punish tank/healer combos.

AP parses higher than vengeance spec, higher than TK sage, and is an AOE spec. AP also has a ton of passive defense.

On Pot5, every other WZ now has AP PTs. Before patch 2.4, AP was a spec that was rarely seen in WZs.