Hello,

I am wondering a lot about this and I actually think it would bring totally new colors to ranked and more people would play it than they currently do solo ranked.

Any hope for this to return ? It never got really implemented at all.

I am pretty certain a lot of class balance issues wouldn't be so evident in 8 man warzones because those would not revolve mostly around ganking.

In 4 man arenas class weaknesses are pretty much obvious while in 8 man WZ's the weaker classes(jugg, pt, sin, sorc) can perform very well.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

8 man ranked as solo que with a little matcmaking ?

Hello,

 

I am wondering a lot about this and I actually think it would bring totally new colors to ranked and more people would play it than they currently do solo ranked.

 

Any hope for this to return ? It never got really implemented at all.

 

I am pretty certain a lot of class balance issues wouldn't be so evident in 8 man warzones because those would not revolve mostly around ganking.

 

In 4 man arenas class weaknesses are pretty much obvious while in 8 man WZ's the weaker classes(jugg, pt, sin, sorc) can perform very well.

 

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

 

8 man ranked as solo que with a little matcmaking ?

Drop your hopes. The online isn't enough for 8vs8 ranked, even regs are always seeing same people, and tr/sr are almost dead. Besides, dsync, poor engine will make it stupid since everyone will run opers-skanks-healer premades.

NO THX

Drop your hopes. The online isn't enough for 8vs8 ranked, even regs are always seeing same people, and tr/sr are almost dead. Besides, dsync, poor engine will make it stupid since everyone will run opers-skanks-healer premades.

 

NO THX

Team is not ranked by far... Solo is just suffering because the rewards are greater in TR.

It might work and people might play it because it would be something new. If other games have it, why can't this one have it too ?

8v8 has multiple wz's going on even at 2-3am pst on SS. During prime time there are many people doing regs. 8v8 ranked would definitely be a viable option still. I love team 4s but the option to queue 8v8 ranked would be great.

The only big downside to this is that the elites would be in the same team and kinda crush anyone else which would probably kill the que...

Maybe it sounds crazy, but I'd imagine 8 man ranked with as solo que with matchmaking to equal roles in each team.

8v8 has multiple wz's going on even at 2-3am pst on SS. During prime time there are many people doing regs. 8v8 ranked would definitely be a viable option still. I love team 4s but the option to queue 8v8 ranked would be great.

They dropped ranked 8v8 years ago.. and for good reason ---> players constantly complaining about how long it takes in queue to start a match. There simply are not enough players (even years ago) to support an active 8v8 in ranked. We can debate and complain about the reasons why until the end of time... but the fact remains... 8v8 ranked failed.. and failed back in a time when there were actually more players playing SWTOR. 4v4 seems to work OK.. but even for 4v4.. there are constant complaints about queue times in the forum.

You have to actually match 8 players vs 8 players.. and if there are not enough players queuing for ranked 8v8.. such that wait times are notably extreme between matches.. how exactly is that viable????

Team is not ranked by far... Solo is just suffering because the rewards are greater in TR.

 

It might work and people might play it because it would be something new. If other games have it, why can't this one have it too ?

1)Because of low population;

2)terrible engine which allows dsync for operatives and sorcs, falling under the textures with force charge etc

3) terrible class balance where opers and sorcs will dominate all the fights.

These are the 3 main reasons

They dropped ranked 8v8 years ago.. and for good reason ---> players constantly complaining about how long it takes in queue to start a match. There simply are not enough players (even years ago) to support an active 8v8 in ranked. We can debate and complain about the reasons why until the end of time... but the fact remains... 8v8 ranked failed.. and failed back in a time when there were actually more players playing SWTOR. 4v4 seems to work OK.. but even for 4v4.. there are constant complaints about queue times in the forum.

 

You have to actually match 8 players vs 8 players.. and if there are not enough players queuing for ranked 8v8.. such that wait times are notably extreme between matches.. how exactly is that viable????

Sorry in advance, this turned into a long post and is not directed at you in anyway,

Yet, Bioware solved this problem of forming teams for arena ranked by adding a solo queue. Which is something they never tried in 8 man. So that only tells me that they knew it was a problem when they were still developing arena ranked. The Solo arena queue has always been the most popular because forming 4 man teams is still an issue. This is something they should have done in 8 man ranked, but didn’t even try to see if it would work.

What they should have done is created the same system for 8 man after they realised there was this issue. But they never tried because they didn’t want it to compete with their new arena, it’s why they removed it at exactly the same time they released it and never rang them congruently. Point in fact, everytime Bioware add a new pvp map in this game, they force pvpers in the queue to play it by reducing the chance of other maps popping, so that their new one pops the most till everyone is sick of it and hates it, even if it’s a good map.

This 8 man ranked topic is something the pvp community has been discussing since they removed 8 man ranked and its been debated to death. I’ve pretty much heard all the reason why they removed it (and there are plenty) and I’ve also heard all the reasons of why we need it back and how to impliment it successfully.

Over the years I taken some good ideas and mixed them into my own ones and IMO, the easiest solution to do ranked 8 man now is to just make another queue (ranked objective) that works the same as reg 8 man and you could have solo players and premades together. Put a cap on premade sizes to 2 people per premade (or 4 man like regs, but I don’t think that would work) and add a primitive match making system that try’s to match the same amount of premades in each team and try’s to limit how many healer tank combos there are per match. (IMO, this is something that should have been done in regs years ago as there is no match making at all in regs).

This could work “if” Bioware were willing to listen to ideas and tweak it if it wasn’t quiet right. But done badly and not listening to feed back would make it a major failure.

Also, one of the biggest problems about arena, which leads to the complaints about ranked, is the toxicity. This comes from big egos, but that has also been fostered by Bioware not listening to basic feed back on many issues that surround ranked arena.

* Wintading or exploiting for ratings and hacking. All of which can be fixed if Bioware just had the will to do something and add proper penalties for those caught cheating.

* Class balance. In arena, it is nearly impossible for Bioware to balance all 8 classes and sub specs. Leading to 4-5 classes (specs) being the only real viable ones. This creates the FOTM situation because people don’t want to be at a disadvantage playing a lesser optimised class in ranked. The fallout from this is people’s favourite classes can be left out and it causes a lot of resentment and QQing about some classes being too OP because their favourite one isn’t in the top 4 of the viable classes (spec). People QQ for months until Bioware either nerf a class or make another OP, then the cycle starts all over gain. This also negatively affects pve.

* What people fail to understand is its near impossible for Bioware to balance 24 subs classes to make them all viable in 4 man arena. It is much easier to balance classes in an 8 man format because it’s more forgiving and objective based over pure combat. Also different classes have different roles and strengths they bring to objective pvp that are useless in arena. ie, a good Operative can kite and mez people trying to cap for a long time till back up arrives, PTs (which are bad in Arena at the moment are really good node guards). Jugg DPS which gets focused in Arena can be a wrecking ball in 8 man. Etc, etc, etc.... there are so many examples. The point is, this game was never designed in the beginning to have a 4 man arena and it’s why there are so many balance issues around it.

* Something else to consider is all of those strengths the different classes bring to 8 man pvp are similar to what they are in pve, operations and flash points. While the pve ones may not be exactly the same or as fast paced as the pvp ones, they are similar in tactics and strategy. This makes perfect sense because that’s the way the classes were designed, otherwise they would have (or should have) developed a whole different metric for pvp. The classes are reasonably transferable in play style from pve to 8 man pvp,

Lastly, there are a lot of pvpers who despise the arena format, but are better players than the standard reg queue guys. The problem is we have no outlet for competitive object play style and lots of them left once ranked 8 man was removed. There is plenty of resentment there between the two groups. The arena ranked guys don’t take regs seriously and always say “it’s only regs, who cares” and then they run around like it’s one big arena, killing stuff and not playing the objectives.

This completely ruins the matches for objective players who like to use tactics and strategy. The only time those arena death match thugs win is if objective players on their teams are willing to carry them by playing the objectives or the other team is so bad at combat, the arena thugs just roll over them. I firmly believe that Arena is to blame for the death of good objective pvp in this game. It encourages people to play the numbers game on the scoreboard and not to actually play to win as the main objective. Winning is an after thought to most of these people, as long as they top the dps, they think they are good pvpers and everyone else is trash.

The thing about “good” pvpers, is they can do both, play to win with tactics and strategy and do good numbers as long as winning is the main objective, the enemy comes to your objective or you go to theirs instead of running all over the map and ignoring the basic premise for playing objective Pvp. If you play the objectives, the numbers come to you organically. Arena death match thugs just don’t understand that.

Anyway, enough of my rant. It should be obvious thst I’m one of those people who despise the arena format and is passionate about objective 8 man pvp. Its why I’ve always petitioned the return of ranked 8 man and with some changes. Even now with the lower population, I firmly believe it might actually work.

1)Because of low population;

2)terrible engine which allows dsync for operatives and sorcs, falling under the textures with force charge etc

3) terrible class balance where opers and sorcs will dominate all the fights.

 

These are the 3 main reasons

1.Population isn’t an issue because Bioware are “making” or actively encouraging non pvpers to play pvp. More so than any other time in the games history. So I think that argument has left the building.

2. The engine is fine for 8 man pvp, we never had any problems back when we used to have 8 man ranked. Yes there are bugs and desync problems (too many and growing). But they aren’t engine related, they are caused by bad code and hardware setup. Both of which need to be fix even if they don’t do a ranked 8 man queue. So that argument is also null and void.

3. Balance is a problem. But not as much in 8 man as it is in Arena. I also don’t know where you think Operatives and Sorcs dominate the fights in regs (I guess that’s what you mean), because that certainly isn’t anywhere near the truth. (It sounds like a L2P, ie, learn how to deal with those classes).

Sorcs, especially Lightning Sorcs are one of the weakest classes in pvp. Healer Sorcs are a little OP, but they don’t control matches (by themselves). The issue is multiple healers (of any kind) that grind matches into parsing exercises.

Operatives are in a good place, smack bang in the middle and pretty balanced. And before you go accusing me of being an operative, I hate them as much as you. I personally think their stabby, stabby thing where you can’t turn is one of the most unfair abilities in the game. But that is my problem and it doesn’t make them OP or mean they control 8 man matches.

I’ve said this many times in the pvp forum. Every class has a role to play and all are viable and they also have different counter classes to negate them “if” people ever bother to learn which ones and how to do it. ie, Fury Mara’s vs snipers, snipers vs Mercs, etc. All classes become OP when you stack them. Even two operatives running together will ruin the best players day. Add half a team of them and throw in some Sins and you have big problems. But that’s no different than if you have a massive amount of Juggs, PTs, Sorcs, Sins, Mara’s or snipers on a team.

The biggest problems plaguing 8 man pvp at the moment is the lack of basic match making which allows teams to have multiple healers (even in Yavin where there are two factions in the queue and one team gets 2 from each faction and the other team gets none. )Add the skank tank problem of people running skank-healer premades (because normal tank stats are mostly useless in pvp now) and you have boring matches because no one dies.

None of those reasons you’ve given make 8 man ranked impossible because they are already in regs and being played everyday and there are ways to fix all of them. Which Bioware needs to do regardless because it’s ruining all forms of pvp.

8v8 has multiple wz's going on even at 2-3am pst on SS. During prime time there are many people doing regs. 8v8 ranked would definitely be a viable option still. I love team 4s but the option to queue 8v8 ranked would be great.

8 man Team ranked wouldn’t work. We’ve proved this in the past because all the wry best people form one team and dominate.

IMO, you either make it so the queue is solo only (with some basic match making) or you limit the size of premades to two people only.

Adding cross faction into the mix would be even better.

1.Population isn’t an issue because Bioware are “making” or actively encouraging non pvpers to play pvp. More so than any other time in the games history. So I think that argument has left the building.

 

2. The engine is fine for 8 man pvp, we never had any problems back when we used to have 8 man ranked. Yes there are bugs and desync problems (too many and growing). But they aren’t engine related, they are caused by bad code and hardware setup. Both of which need to be fix even if they don’t do a ranked 8 man queue. So that argument is also null and void.

 

3. Balance is a problem. But not as much in 8 man as it is in Arena. I also don’t know where you think Operatives and Sorcs dominate the fights in regs (I guess that’s what you mean), because that certainly isn’t anywhere near the truth. (It sounds like a L2P, ie, learn how to deal with those classes).

Sorcs, especially Lightning Sorcs are one of the weakest classes in pvp. Healer Sorcs are a little OP, but they don’t control matches (by themselves). The issue is multiple healers (of any kind) that grind matches into parsing exercises.

Operatives are in a good place, smack bang in the middle and pretty balanced. And before you go accusing me of being an operative, I hate them as much as you. I personally think their stabby, stabby thing where you can’t turn is one of the most unfair abilities in the game. But that is my problem and it doesn’t make them OP or mean they control 8 man matches.

 

I’ve said this many times in the pvp forum. Every class has a role to play and all are viable and they also have different counter classes to negate them “if” people ever bother to learn which ones and how to do it. ie, Fury Mara’s vs snipers, snipers vs Mercs, etc. All classes become OP when you stack them. Even two operatives running together will ruin the best players day. Add half a team of them and throw in some Sins and you have big problems. But that’s no different than if you have a massive amount of Juggs, PTs, Sorcs, Sins, Mara’s or snipers on a team.

 

The biggest problems plaguing 8 man pvp at the moment is the lack of basic match making which allows teams to have multiple healers (even in Yavin where there are two factions in the queue and one team gets 2 from each faction and the other team gets none. )Add the skank tank problem of people running skank-healer premades (because normal tank stats are mostly useless in pvp now) and you have boring matches because no one dies.

 

None of those reasons you’ve given make 8 man ranked impossible because they are already in regs and being played everyday and there are ways to fix all of them. Which Bioware needs to do regardless because it’s ruining all forms of pvp.

You havent convinced me. As a guy who plays only pvp i can assure you:

1)their mats encourage didnt helped much, tr and sr are pretty dead and popping only in cerain periods of time. And even if 4 vs 4 is pretty dead you can imagine how 8 vs 8 will be dead. Their encourage didnt help.

2)regardless, if it is engine or code you said, it really exists: dsync from opers rolls, sorcs force speed gives huge advantage in regs. Dont forget about other buggs: force charge often makes maras/juggs to fall under textures, jet jump often goes on cd without actually pull pt/vanguard to its target, sorcs can cap bases on novare on almost unlimited range with their phase walk etc.

3) class balance is terrible, and i meant sorc healers. Opers can roll with balls on huttball, sap-cap bases against enemies who arent able to counter them (carnage maras, juggs, mercs), sorcs pulling the ball handler to them etc. The class balance is trash.

Overall, i cant say that 8vs8 ranked is good idea. Not with current state of swtor.

I used to level character strictly through PvP I have three that don't even have their ship. When arena came out I stopped doing level cap PvP. One, I hate that format especially. Two, in ToR as it has always been FOTM spec wins. Doesn't matter which class that is.

Until 8v8 comes back as a ranked I won't be doing any level capped PvP. And if I draw an arena during leveling I leave before match starts thats how much I hate the arena format

You havent convinced me. As a guy who plays only pvp i can assure you:

1)their mats encourage didnt helped much, tr and sr are pretty dead and popping only in cerain periods of time. And even if 4 vs 4 is pretty dead you can imagine how 8 vs 8 will be dead. Their encourage didnt help.

2)regardless, if it is engine or code you said, it really exists: dsync from opers rolls, sorcs force speed gives huge advantage in regs. Dont forget about other buggs: force charge often makes maras/juggs to fall under textures, jet jump often goes on cd without actually pull pt/vanguard to its target, sorcs can cap bases on novare on almost unlimited range with their phase walk etc.

3) class balance is terrible, and i meant sorc healers. Opers can roll with balls on huttball, sap-cap bases against enemies who arent able to counter them (carnage maras, juggs, mercs), sorcs pulling the ball handler to them etc. The class balance is trash.

 

Overall, i cant say that 8vs8 ranked is good idea. Not with current state of swtor.

It sounds like you are playing on dead servers. You should try playing pvp on SF or SS, both pop fairly fast in primetime. Out side of prime time it slows right down.

Operative rolling with the ball has been like that since launch, we had 8 man ranked back then and it was fine. Ranked Hutt Ball was awesome, we even tried getting Bioware to start a HB league,

Everything you think is a problem has been in the game since day one. ALL of those mechanics that Sorcs etc do are by design, it’s what makes HB so good. We had ranked back then and had no problems except being about to get enough people to form teams of 8.

The only problems in the game at moment are the ones I mentioned in my last post and NONE of them have anything to do with the mechanics. ALL of them are about coding-hardware problems and a lack of match making. THESE can all be fixed and need to be for regs as well as ranked.

From what you’ve said, it sounds like you have a problem with all classes that aren’t your own. How can you even pvp and enjoy it if you think it’s so rubbish.

I used to level character strictly through PvP I have three that don't even have their ship. When arena came out I stopped doing level cap PvP. One, I hate that format especially. Two, in ToR as it has always been FOTM spec wins. Doesn't matter which class that is.

 

Until 8v8 comes back as a ranked I won't be doing any level capped PvP. And if I draw an arena during leveling I leave before match starts thats how much I hate the arena format

When the endless pre-season finally came to an end and season 1 was announced to only be the newfangled arenas, my pvp server took a big hit in players. My friend's very active pvp guild quit to a man over-night. On my server, at least, arenas were poorly received and drove a lot of the dedicated pvpers away.

Of course there aren't enough ranked players for 8v8 when Bioware keeps doing things to drive them away

It sounds like you are playing on dead servers. You should try playing pvp on SF or SS, both pop fairly fast in primetime. Out side of prime time it slows right down.

 

SNIP

 

.

Yes WZ's in ToR remind me of Vanilla WoW before cross server, Primetime 6PMish CST to 11PMish CST pop pop pop pop then might as well go to bed

I'd love to see 8v8 ranked again, and a solo queue system with it would be kinda neat. I actually think it'd be easier to get people to try out ranked 8v8 than trying to get them into 4v4. 8v8 ranked is a natural progression from unranked since it's the same maps and same playstyle but at a higher level. The problem with getting people into 4v4 is that unless they happened to get a ton of arena maps in unranked (unlikely) they really haven't been able to practice it and the playstyle isn't really the same. So that plus the class balance issues being much more apparent in 4v4 as well as the toxicity and unforgiving nature of it means a lot of people who try it out just quit again right away and go back to unranked or whatever.

I'm not sure population is the biggest issue in the world, especially if there'd be a solo queue. Back when 8v8 ranked was a thing people were spread across more servers. There might be fewer people now but were also on fewer servers. Back then there weren't a ton of different teams so it could get stale going up against the same people again and again. But kickballs were a fun thing and that or a solo queue system could make things more interesting. It might not work out but I think it'd be worth trying again.

Hello,

 

I am wondering a lot about this and I actually think it would bring totally new colors to ranked and more people would play it than they currently do solo ranked.

 

Any hope for this to return ? It never got really implemented at all.

 

I am pretty certain a lot of class balance issues wouldn't be so evident in 8 man warzones because those would not revolve mostly around ganking.

 

In 4 man arenas class weaknesses are pretty much obvious while in 8 man WZ's the weaker classes(jugg, pt, sin, sorc) can perform very well.

 

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

 

8 man ranked as solo que with a little matcmaking ?

while this is a good idea on paper i think it wont be a good idea in practice

imagine premade super que and kill all opposition and then que died or just many people que rank as it is a reg , just sit in corner and get tokens , what makes you think people wont do that ?

and if dev want to invest time and money for this which they dont have , then better off spend on dev content development like fp, new wz and ops

devs already told in stream that pvp and ops are minority people playing it , so mean most people play here are casuals which mean that would be the main driver for development for them business wise

while this is a good idea on paper i think it wont be a good idea in practice

imagine premade super que and kill all opposition and then que died or just many people que rank as it is a reg , just sit in corner and get tokens , what makes you think people wont do that ?

 

and if dev want to invest time and money for this which they dont have , then better off spend on dev content development like fp, new wz and ops

 

devs already told in stream that pvp and ops are minority people playing it , so mean most people play here are casuals which mean that would be the main driver for development for them business wise

It’s one of the reasons why I suggested limiting premades to two people (which is what they should look at doing in regs). If the whole queue was set up to work just like the reg queue, where you can have has solo players and premades together instead of an 8 man premade, ranked objective pvp would work as long as there was some basic matchmaking.

If you also added crossfaction, it would make it easier for a match making system to work and also stop people from trying to queue sync to get an advantage over others.

Setting up a ranked queue would be much easier than doing ops or making new WZs. All the maps and mechanics are already there. They can even used the broken arse rating system from arena ranked to save time and money (but I wouldn’t suggest it). There are better ways to do a rating system and even the arena system needs an overhaul.

Something like this -

The argument about where to spend resources is vast, but let’s consider that Bioware spend plenty of resources on non played content stuff like strong holds and decorations which only some of the community care about. I don’t see the difference in spending some resources to add “de facto playable content” to the game player who would play it. Ranked 8 man would actually be one of the cheapest ways to “add playable content for pvp”. It’s certainly much cheaper than making WZ maps.

Edit : More casual people play pvp than you think, even ranked because they want the mats to craft with. There is a whole new generation of pvpers now because 90% of the old ones have left because they are frustrated at not having an outlet to play good quality and semi competitive pvp. Those of us who remain are starting to feel like pvp gods against all these newer pvp players. Not because we are, but because we’ve got the experience that the newbies lack. Most of us don’t enjoy farming people learning to pvp and people learning don’t like it either . People stop pvping when the challenge goes or if it’s too hard to start with. I could go into all the reasons of why and how and where to fix things. But that’s a whole other topic. Please I know I’m asking a lot for you to trust me, but having a ranked objective queue would be very beneficial for anyone who pvp’s or or wants to pvp or will do in the future.

Yes WZ's in ToR remind me of Vanilla WoW before cross server, Primetime 6PMish CST to 11PMish CST pop pop pop pop then might as well go to bed

It’s very bad for me because I’m in Australia and since we lost our APAC servers and now the west coast ones, the US prime time is much smaller than it used to be and there isn’t an Aussie prime time at all.

If I want to play pvp and get fast pops I need to play early morning and during the day when most Aussies would be at work or school. This can be extremely difficult to organise around my real life commitments.

Trying to play pvp at 6-10pm in Australia, which is the sort of time of the day most Americans or EU people would usually consider primetime for them because its when they get home from work and school, is pretty much impossible for me.

When ever I say it’s dead and not popping, the first thing people say is play in prime time. Well the problem with that is it’s relative to where you live. When this game released, it was a global game and we had APAC servers. Over time Bioware have made it so only people in the American and EU time zones can play at 6-10pm and have basically locked the rest of the world out of the game.

Luckily for me I’m sort of semi retired, so I can still play in US primetime some of the time, but the times I would like to play are no longer available to me.

It sounds like you are playing on dead servers. You should try playing pvp on SF or SS, both pop fairly fast in primetime. Out side of prime time it slows right down.

 

Operative rolling with the ball has been like that since launch, we had 8 man ranked back then and it was fine. Ranked Hutt Ball was awesome, we even tried getting Bioware to start a HB league,

 

Everything you think is a problem has been in the game since day one. ALL of those mechanics that Sorcs etc do are by design, it’s what makes HB so good. We had ranked back then and had no problems except being about to get enough people to form teams of 8.

 

The only problems in the game at moment are the ones I mentioned in my last post and NONE of them have anything to do with the mechanics. ALL of them are about coding-hardware problems and a lack of match making. THESE can all be fixed and need to be for regs as well as ranked.

 

From what you’ve said, it sounds like you have a problem with all classes that aren’t your own. How can you even pvp and enjoy it if you think it’s so rubbish.

I asked people from ss and sf, and they confirmed that tr and sr there are also not popular as it on DM. It pops there only in certain periods of times, and if you dont queue in those periods you may have to wait 30-40 mins for a pop(same as on DM). This only confirms that this game wont have enough people for 8vs8 ranked, and it will only cause problems for sr and tr since some of people will go to 8vs8 ranked which will make tr and sr even more dead along with 8vs8 ranked too. Seclusion of already small player base in pvp will kill this game.

Once again, about dsync, huge advantages of sorcs/opers, buggs etc - you continue to say different reasons of this, and saying about some hope that devs will fix it but no, they arent fixing it, this crap remains here for YEARS so iam sure it will remain here to the end. As a player who does all kinds of pvp, i can confirm that operatives with rolls and sorc healers with their pull will dominate 8vs8 ranked because they already dominate regs. Iam 2200 sr rated player so you cant call it "l2p issue" a skilled oper can survice against 3-4 enemies long enough until his mates reaches the base he defends, sorcs can pull ball handler into right spot on huttball, two opers or one oper can easily sap-steal a base on civil war if the defender was a class which is not viable to defend (jugg, merc etc).

Sorry, there is no reasons to return 8vs8, and i fully understand why devs removed it. I prefer sr and tr