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Pay2Win Space Missions ???


Dirtyshadow

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It is not our intent to make the Cartel Market the “way to play" the game—we want you to feel that both the Cartel Market and earning gear in game are viable options as far as value goes, neither being far more efficient or effective than the other.

 

Perhaps I'm reading too much into this statement, but this doesn't set my mind at ease. It sounds to me like they don't have a problem with the items being on the cartel market, but rather with the cost of the items when compared to how much work is required in-game to achieve the same result. This troubles me, as it doesn't sound like they are really hearing us. We don't want these sorts of things in the cash shop at all. We don't want pay to win at all. It's not that we're griping because the items don't cost enough, or because it's too hard to obtain them in-game. It's the principle of the thing that we take issue with.

 

There are two possible negative outcomes I see from this. First, they could reduce the amount of effort required to get the items through the in-game grinding, in order to cheapen them to the point that the cartel market purchase isn't as good a value. I feel this would be a mistake. There's already "not enough" to do at end-game by many player's standards. To reduce the investment required to obtain these items in-game won't help those complaints, and will diminish the achievement of obtaining the items (which is one of the complaints about making them available for a simple purchase; the lack of achievement.)

 

Second, they could raise the price of the cartel purchase, which doesn't actually solve any problems. The people who already have the items will still have them, for one thing, and the disparity in the time investment necessary to acquire the item through both paths will remain unchanged. Increasing the cost of the items in the cash shop still allows players to acquire them instantly in exchange for real money, and that's the root of the problem. The community is very clear that they do not want players to be able to bypass the mechanics of the game by paying money in the cash shop.

 

The best outcome, from my perspective, is to pull the items off the cartel market shelves. I still find it disturbing that BioWare thinks these items should be in the cash shop at all, no matter the price. The simple fact that they are there is "pay to win", and I'm not sure BioWare understands that.

 

-Macheath.

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If the prices and crafting material requirements are reduced, people who already bought or crafted these items might be upset. I certainly would be.

 

So that means refunds. But because the items are BOE and come from the Cartel Market as well, they can't simply award commendations and Enriched Durasteel to everyone with the items in their inventory. Well, they could, but it would be in excess. Though maybe it would be better than not doing refunds at all, if it comes to that.

 

Do you think it's feasible for them to run some sort of script on the logs, massive though they may be, to find out who bought the items and schematics with commendations or crafted them? Would they do such a thing, even if they can?

Edited by Felioats
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They don't have to create a script, they already have these sorts of tools (they've had to make equipment adjustments in the past, including people trying to scam the system). They know exactly what you've purchased, when you purchased it, and how much you paid for it.
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+1

 

Old complaints:

- Space is on rails

- Space is to easy

- There is no incentive to do space

 

New complaints:

- Space is too had

- Space is P2W

- Space is on rails

 

People really will complain about anything. Space is a completely optional minigame with some minor incentives now that are limited. You get more comms from running TFB SM up to Dread Guard than you do from a whole week of space missions.

 

Personally, I'm glad I could buy the new gear and try out the new missions straight away. They are BRUTAL but they are awesome fun and a great challenge. Sure, they'll get stale in a little bit once I've beaten them all but I will probably keep running them because there is an incentive.

 

I also agree with Joveth. The disparity between buying the new parts with CC (which I did) and grinding them is the issue. Its the same as Rocket Boots, first thing I bought with CC but I refused to spend millions of creds on them. Get rid of the Stabilizers on the recipe and the crafted ones are competitive, as long as those remain a component they will never be lucrative for crafters because the cost price is so high and they are competing for mats with grade 26/27 mods which cover MUCH MUCH more of the game.

 

Its only P2W if:

- You can't get the best gear without buying it.

- You have to spend the money to remain competitive (ie. buying buffs).

 

It's getting close to P2W if:

- You can buy the best gear.

 

Anything less than that, is convenience and provides a way to bring people up to speed without grinding for intermediate tiers. I have no problem with someone being able to buy stock Campaign gear or War Hero so they can get straight into HM TFB or start grinding out EWH gear. These are both easy enough to acquire in game without skill, it just takes a couple of weeks.

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Hi everyone...

 

[Quoting Lead Designer Damion Schubert]

 

It is not our intent to make the Cartel Market the “way to play" the game—we want you to feel that both the Cartel Market and earning gear in game are viable options as far as value goes, neither being far more efficient or effective than the other.

 

...Thank you for your patience.

 

Thank you Joveth for your response,

 

I would just like to ask if you can kindly expand/clarify this paragraph. Perhaps it wasn't your/Damion's intention to imply that the Cartel Market is/will be a viable option for acquiring gear. I think a lot of the general discontent/concern would be precisely that. Making gear even more viable through the cartel market is what many folks are against and coining the term P2W to.

 

Specifically, you used the word "gear" alone so it can be widely interpreted/miss-interpreted ( crystals, T7 ship upgrades, next?). I think someone has already made the example, but the generality of this paragraph ( and somewhat the method to improve on current T7 via price modifications described on a later paragraph) leave open interpretations that range from Campaign /War Hero level gear potentially being viably purchasable in a near future to even current or next tier content gear? For the sake of preventing people's imaginations from going places, if you could please kindly clarify this for us in a way that includes or excludes core game progression relevant items.

 

Thank you

Edited by TheIrage
typos
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Lets look at it this way, no one really gives 2 poops for the space combat in this game, its terrible, a tacked on afterthought a dev threw in after tripping over his old nintendo one day and yet its caused a huge fudgestorm as it gave out the top gear for it via the cash shop.

 

Most people who are upset dont care about the space junk, its all down to the fact that giving out top gear for real terms cash, regardless of whether it is a small aspect or not, is abhorrant and insulting to those who actually enjoy said aspect. (personally I cant imagine anyone enjoys the on rail shooter but thats just me)

 

Giving out top gear for cash is wrong, in all "free" to play incarnations, I can think of no other f2p game that just doles out the best stuff for money, the successful ones give a helping hand so you can earn the top stuff. This is troubling to me because its been a terrible way of doing things and built them a ton of bad feeling on the back of a rarely used aspect.

 

SWTOR had one of the technically smoothest launches I had seen and the worst transition to free to play, its like they really dont know what they are doing and are panicking.

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Old complaints:

- Space is on rails

- Space is to easy

- There is no incentive to do space

 

New complaints:

- Space is too ha[r]d

- Space is P2W

- Space is on rails

 

There's really a huge disparity between the difficulty though. I think if you can't admit that you're just trolling.

 

These are also supposed to be daily quests. Daily quests that you do every day shouldn't be set to Nightmare Inferno difficulty.

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Here's something I've been mulling over the last couple of hours.

 

How about this:

 

1) The PvE gear is made available in the CM, but as empty adaptive gear - there are no stats on it to buy, it would be purely cosmetic and allow the player to insert their own mods as they level.

 

2) The PvE gear is made available in the CM with complete stats as a Legacy system unlock. The gear can only be used by level 50's only and only unlocked via the Legacy system after the player has completed the related FP/OP with at least one character on their account.

 

Both options could co-exist in the CM. Option One CM and allow for players to customize their toon cosmetically just like any other adaptive armor. Option Two allows the player to outfit alts without having to run the alt through the entire gear progression chain again, but simply play the FP/OPs that they like to play the most.

 

BJ

Edited by BJWyler
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Wow, that was a lot of pages. Being able to buy the Ship parts in Cartel Shop removed all the prestige about completing all space missions and having BiS space gear. BioWare really messed up here.

 

They said they're going to make the pieces much cheaper so everyone can have them. Of course... I actually bought them hoping they'd help me through the impossible missions and they didn't. If they make them cheap and easy to get I'm going to complain about getting ripped off for being tricked into buying them. So really it's no win for BW.

 

Today , 07:54 PM | #666
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Still not buying into this part of your argument. Note that your other points I agree on so this is not a personal attack.

 

There's a big difference between "significantly useful" and "required".

 

However it's decribed (I don't care to call it P2W either), forcing players to buy gear in advance of playing released content (in the Cartel Store, by grinding, or any other method) by purposely inserting a large gear gap is a perversion on how progression is supposed to work and is wrong ihmo.

 

If allowed to get away with this, EA may very well introduce "Super Duper Cartel Armor" with the Makeb expansion that will be best in game when that releases. Of course, they will make it possible (but prohibitingly painful) to grind for the same way these T7 parts are.

 

I think we may be on the same page actually . I believe there is a limit to how far is appropriate to drive sales of items through the Cartel Market. It varies from person to person as to what that limit is. Personally, my limit is around core progression ( PvP and PvE) and to what degree Cartel Market sales would appear to influence game design. It is a personal gauge, but somewhere around there is where I would say I had enough. Certainly, if I were a fan of space missions and felt they were a significant part of my SWTOR gaming, the introduction of purchasable T7 coupled with the level of difficulty ( I hear) of the new content would have rapidly driven me to unsubscribe.

 

From a business stand, BW also has to find what that limit is in terms of the revenue from purchases vs. the loss/fluctuation of subscriptions.

 

I personally think we have had P2W since 1.5, but prefer not even use that term since it is loose, derogatory, inflammatory and non conductive to dialog. To me it is all about a company shifting business models poking into costumers to see how far they can go and were to stand. Our wallets more than our direct feedback will be in the end ( my opinion) what drives where/how we end up.

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Thank you for your feedback and I am glad something is being done about the grade 7 gear.

 

I agree with what someone said earlier this is not really pay to win more pay for gear as the missions are still tough even with grade 7 gear (I haven't got all G7 gear only offensive/defensive and 1 tactical item from daily comms).

 

Question though as I already bought some G7 bundles on cartel market as I found no other way to play the heroic space missions, will people get refund of cartel coins (in full or some), as I already purchased G7 gear on cartel market before this BW feedback was posted?

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There's really a huge disparity between the difficulty though. I think if you can't admit that you're just trolling.

 

These are also supposed to be daily quests. Daily quests that you do every day shouldn't be set to Nightmare Inferno difficulty.

 

These are meant to be tough space missions to test more advanced players and have a weekly mission tied to them as an incentive to complete them. They are not meant to be dailies, they in the same league as Ops or HM FPs. I know they're harder, I believe the word I used was "BRUTAL" and I love them. It actually feels awesome when you down one.

 

Wow, that was a lot of pages. Being able to buy the Ship parts in Cartel Shop removed all the prestige about completing all space missions and having BiS space gear. BioWare really messed up here.

 

What prestige? You can't show it off, you can't inspect people's ships and it makes no cosmetic difference on anything. You can feel good about getting it, but if thats you motivation just earn them instead of buying them. I get my sense of accomplishment from finishing the missions (even in PvE), the gear is just a means to an end for me.

Edited by grallmate
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I paid real money for a speeder unlock that said it would apply to all characters on the account in the tooltip.

 

It was a case of false advertising.

 

After I was duped and lied to, they did fix the tootip.

 

And I never got my cartel coins back.

 

If they never made me whole again on a transaction of actual real cash that they took in exchange for a product they never really provided, how do you think your chances look?

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Here's something I've been mulling over the last couple of hours.

 

How about this:

 

1) The PvE gear is made available in the CM, but as empty adaptive gear - there are no stats on it to buy, it would be purely cosmetic and allow the player to insert their own mods as they level.

 

2) The PvE gear is made available in the CM with complete stats as a Legacy system unlock. The gear can only be used by level 50's only and only unlocked via the Legacy system after the player has completed the related FP/OP with at least one character on their account.

 

Both options could co-exist in the CM. Option One CM and allow for players to customize their toon cosmetically just like any other adaptive armor. Option Two allows the player to outfit alts without having to run the alt through the entire gear progression chain again, but simply play the FP/OPs that they like to play the most.

 

BJ

 

This to me is thinking on the right direction. I may not agree with everything you write, but I can sink my teeth on this one.

 

1) I don't see anything wrong with it other than perhaps diluting some of the achievement of obtaining new gear. I would add some sort of legacy unlock ( such as at least one character 50 has completed the operation/boss where such item is normally obtained) and/or a time gap ( only available X weeks after the original item was released).

 

2) Personally, this may be a tad far but still on the right direction. I would add (my opinion) a reasonable time gap, some sort of a quota/quantity limit, and maybe ( subject to debate) a reasonably high cost.

 

Again, great thoughts though.

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These are meant to be tough space missions to test more advanced players and have a weekly mission tied to them as an incentive to complete them. They are not meant to be dailies, they in the same league as Ops or HM FPs. I know they're harder, I believe the word I used was "BRUTAL" and I love them. It actually feels awesome when you down one."

 

They are "Brutal" Spent 3 hours last night and still have not managed to down one. But I have got closer to doing it and not mad at all love the challenge.

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These are meant to be tough space missions to test more advanced players and have a weekly mission tied to them as an incentive to complete them. They are not meant to be dailies, they in the same league as Ops or HM FPs. I know they're harder, I believe the word I used was "BRUTAL" and I love them. It actually feels awesome when you down one."

 

They are "Brutal" Spent 3 hours last night and still have not managed to down one. But I have got closer to doing it and not mad at all love the challenge.

 

Yep, I've only downed 2 and I'm still working on the rest.

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personally I'm more worried about this:

 

"It is not our intent to make the Cartel Market the “way to play" the game—we want you to feel that both the Cartel Market and earning gear in game are viable options as far as value goes, neither being far more efficient or effective than the other."

 

Ie the plan as stated here is the Cartel Market is as effective as playing the game for gaining equipment certainly a statement that as it stands tends to imply the long term plan is to sell end game equipment sets through the Cartel Market. Further clarification is required as a matter of urgency.

 

Note that in the 6? months since the announcement it has gone from

 

1. Cosmetic items only to

2. Some blues available to

3. Purple leveling gear available to

4. BiS Slot crystals available 40 lvls before they are attainable through gameplay to

5. BiS upgrades for the minigame being effectively only available through the Cartel Market for the majority of players

 

This does not currently present a pretty picture and makes me wonder what they will be selling in another 6 months

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You cheapened the integrity of the market once you started putting top tier gear (of any kind) for sale on the Cartel Market.

 

That is the fundamental problem here. If you guys want to start selling more top-tier gear on the Market... and I don't care what the cost is...just come out and say it so that I can unsub because that isn't the MMO I signed up for.

 

Pretty much this. Except I'll play until the "doomsday" date. The game will become utter dung if/when they start selling PVE/PVP gear.

 

I don't play MMOs that you can just log on, buy everything endgame with real money then be done with it. When you don't have to earn anything on the game anymore, there's no point to play it.

 

Deep down I sort of hope they just get it over with soon. It kind of sucks waiting in fear of the day the game is going to be ruined...the day to "rip off the bandaid" and move along to another MMO...

Edited by Radzkie
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I would be really interested to find out how many players are completing these missions and if it was worth the development time put into them.

 

The diffculty of the missions seems dialed up too high and I can't see the reason for it. It really isn't balanced for the reward but thats only the tip of the problem. The incredible gear grind to get to the point of just being able to fly them must be a massive turn off for all but hard core space fans (unless you use the cartel market or gtn from the cartel market). But then I don't see where the fun comes repeating the same mission learning where all the enemies come from (its a rail shooter they never change) and then by trial and error and a lot of luck getting through.

 

The control is so limited in a rail shooter there is no feeling of a difficult dog fight against an ace its pew pewing at targets hoping they will go down and I would love to see the metrics of the game and how much this has added to the star wars experience.

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