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Type "+" if you think these classes need buffs to their defenses.


Azheon

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Lol, since when playing a class well is exploiting ? You can play your class however you want it and however is effective. Dont have to listen to devs to tell you how to play.

 

Please stop saying skank tank... there is nos such thing. If they do tanking they are tank. Thats it. Sorry to hear you get outdpsed by tanks. Maybe stop mashing buttons and unload your stuff into dcds, that helps.

 

Ad hominem aside, PvP is more fun when each class has plays and counter-plays against each other. To accomplish this, each class should be better at some things (damage, cc, heals, defense, etc.) at the expense of being worse at others.

 

Skank Tank violates this principle by having excellent damage and defensives (and cc immunity for some flavors). This eliminates counter-play because there is no counter to the skank tank activating a DCD or two and proceeding to burst down squishier classes (short of running away until the DCD expires, but that's not really fun/viable).

 

A balanced tank class should have a one-to-one tradeoff between defensives and damage. If you want to drop huge numbers in PvP, you should have to play a DPS class.

 

Completely agree on toning down the defensives of Merc/Sniper. I would submit that tank classes should have the power of their defensives made dependent on wearing tank gear (eg. damage reduction or ability duration of DCDs scaling off defense/shield/absorb rating).

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Tanks do less damage then dps.

Question is do they have better defensives ? Dunno about that. Vanguard tank has nothing apart from passives, has worse dcds then many dps classes..

 

It is what it is and if people wanna make it viable by doing good damage then props to them for finding a way to make their class be usefull. Its better then crying on forums.

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Tanks do less damage then dps.

Question is do they have better defensives ? Dunno about that. Vanguard tank has nothing apart from passives, has worse dcds then many dps classes..

 

It is what it is and if people wanna make it viable by doing good damage then props to them for finding a way to make their class be usefull. Its better then crying on forums.

 

Last thing I'll say on here: I'm primarily referring to Jug/Guardian Skank Tank. VG is weak regardless of role.

 

The moderately higher damage that DPS can achieve is easily offset by the superior DCDs of the Jug/Guard skank tank (again Merc/Mando being the exception). Also, theoretical parses have little relevance in PvP.

 

Tanks don't need to run hybrid to be useful, they are excellent damage mitigators with guard and should be in a support role rather than acting as prime-time damage dealers.

 

In the current meta there is no logical reason to pick certain DPS classes as they are outclassed by skank tanks. I believe that this is an issue.

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Tanks don't need to run hybrid to be useful, they are excellent damage mitigators with guard and should be in a support role rather than acting as prime-time damage dealers.

 

In the current meta there is no logical reason to pick certain DPS classes as they are outclassed by skank tanks. I believe that this is an issue.

 

I've stated that if I am tanking my goal is to guard my team and be as annoying as possible. The issue is that currently tank gear does virtually nothing for me in PvP. Yes, I have tried it.

 

I have also stated everywhere that I almost always outdamaved myself as a vigi guardian, which anyone claiming is OP needs their head examined. Not because it doesn't do damage but because it is so squishy. Sorry but dying 15 times a match is not fun for me. Especially when I run with a healer.

 

Therefore, as I have stated virtually everywhere on these forums by now, the solutions are to improve dps survivability for guardians and vanguard and to make tank gear somehow help my survivability. Provided these were true, tanks would run tank gear and dps would go dps spec. In the meantime, we can all enjoy dying to the armies of mercs and snipers and die repeatedly or go try to be useful to our team somehow.

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In the current meta there is no logical reason to pick certain DPS classes as they are outclassed by skank tanks. I believe that this is an issue.

 

I think people are missing the biggest issue of them all: premades. When you get right down to it, even the most overpowered classes in the game will get steamrolled against even a mediocre, yet organized, premade on voice comms. This is made even more apparent in a pvp system built around guarding objectives and responding to defend off nodes or organizing to move an objective from one side of the map to the other. Until BW fixes that, arguing over slight differences between classes is a moot point.

 

#overratedstaticpremade.

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this what I think needs adjustment

reflect=5 second activation, 1 minute cool down, no damage cap- utility (gives it 2 extra seconds making it 7).

endure pain=45% increase of health for 20 seconds- (tank would get the same, but 30 second like they still do)

saber ward=instead of 2 seconds of "blade tuning" make it 5, also with cc immunity upon activation for 12 seconds.

enrage defenses= 30 charges with the passive "brawn" granting cc immunity and 20% damage reduction until the end of it's activation or charges.

 

mad dash= 30 meter distances, with speed increase of 50% for 5 seconds and damage reduction increase by 20%.

 

this is some ideas that i just came up on the spot, but the purpose of a "JUGGERNAUT" is they're suppose be hard to kill and giving them vanish/stealth would just make a copy/paste of every other class that does it. so giving them passives that give them short period of damage reduction boost and cc immunity would help the dps spec alot in my opinion.

Thanks for the laughs.

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Big issue of the current state of PvP imo is that some classes defensives capabilities are just too potent. If anything, they should tune down all the other classes to the level of Jugg/Sorc etc. to make PvP a bit more fast paced again. This "sitting on one target for 3 minutes" really gets annoying sometimes. It goes to the extent that some dps specs simply cant be beat by other dps specs because their consistent selfheal/utility just outvalues the consistent dps of the other class.

 

Overall Defensives need to be tuned down exept for the classes that already have rather insignificant dcd's

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Skank Tank is a better DPS class than the majority of the actual DPS classes (Merc/Mando being an exception for equally imbalanced DCDs). I would argue that there is something wrong with that...
Don't worry. After tomorrow, only sorcs/sages and mercs/mandos will be consistently topping the DPS charts in warzones. No more 6, 7, 8 million damage warzones from Juggernauts or Guardians, or 2 million damage arena rounds.

 

But don't take my word for it, PvP on a non-FOTM DPS class and see if you reach a similar conclusion.
I do. Vengeance Juggernaut. It puts out higher DPS. No, it's not as survivable. After all, it's the fourth or so shortest lived build in ranked (after Rage and one or both PT DPS specs).

 

This eliminates counter-play because there is no counter to the skank tank activating a DCD or two and proceeding to burst down squishier classes (short of running away until the DCD expires, but that's not really fun/viable).
You're wrong. There is counterplay - CC the tank. That bypasses Saber Ward (well, not the DR part) and any defensive stats they're picking up from the tank spec. That defensive stats are so easily bypassed, by an ability literally every class gets one or more versions of, is a major reason players go skank tank in the first place.

 

There's also counterplay in the sense that there's no reason the squishy should die to that. It's one hard hitting ability on a 12s cooldown. Healers can stand there and face tank that. Speaking of, healers don't really need a tank to survive; another healer does more for them. This dynamic does far more to undermine the trinity than skank.

 

Tanks don't need to run hybrid to be useful, they are excellent damage mitigators with guard and should be in a support role rather than acting as prime-time damage dealers.
Healers are excellent damage mitigators, with HPS tuned 30% higher than DPS even before you account for positioning.

 

You seem to consistently overvalue skank tanks, and tanks in general. Do you play one regularly?

 

Completely agree on toning down the defensives of Merc/Sniper. I would submit that tank classes should have the power of their defensives made dependent on wearing tank gear (eg. damage reduction or ability duration of DCDs scaling off defense/shield/absorb rating).
My money is on sorc/sage. Maybe op/scoundrel. Probably sorc/sage. You sound like a sorc/sage player. Edited by Ansultares
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we pvpers who have even little bit experience at pvp know that juggernaut, powertech, sorcerer classes, marauder's annihilation, carnage specs have too weak defenses. I also think sniper and merc classes definetely need nerfs to their defenses but this is arguable, but i am sure that we all know jugg, pt, sorc classes and annihilation, carnage specs of mara are very squishy and need buff to their defenses.

 

So i want to learn, our mighty developer, great jedi guardian and the best saberward user eric musco and his friends that could notice little bit damage differences at annihilation and carnage specs, can't see these huge defensive differences?

 

As a nonstop subscriber of this game for many years i request you to play these classes and specs at solo rankeds of tre server, i am sure that you will be regreted for giving them low defenses and making snipers & mercs fotm. You can even cry because of sadness when you think there were players who were trying to rise their ratings even they get suffer a lot while playing with these conditions. And while you do that, you even can notice there are some wintraders and trolls that ruins arenas.

 

+ indeed they do need buffs

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if you don't know how to; kite, delay charge, disengage, and deal with classes like merc/sniper you're going to have a bad time in rank.
This in general is something of the problem these two classes (jugg/guard and pt/vg) have with ranked. It's completely contradictory to their intended play style. Never mind that ranked coddles stealth as if they were the supreme overlords of gaming (vomit). These two classes want to get in there and face tank, but their kits don't support it. Nor do their kits support kiting; both of these classes were shoehorned into being easily kited; they don't do well trying to kite others.

 

I think it requires changes to the format as much as it requires changes to the classes. For example, once you enter combat in a round, there should be no means of exiting combat, including stealth.

Edited by Ansultares
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This in general is something of the problem these two classes (jugg/guard and pt/vg) have with ranked. It's completely contradictory to their intended play style. Never mind that ranked coddles stealth as if they were the supreme overlords of gaming (vomit). These two classes want to get in there and face tank, but their kits don't support it. Nor do their kits support kiting; both of these classes were shoehorned into being easily kited; they don't do well trying to kite others.

 

I think it requires changes to the format as much as it requires changes to the classes. For example, once you enter combat in a round, there should be no means of exiting combat, including stealth.

 

To be fair they did make chasing a bit easier by getting rid of the channel on master strike (uh blade dance or whatever they're calling it now). Guardians and sentinels also have the best leap in the game. I can't speak for VG beyond they are easy to kill lol.

 

That said I obviously feel ranged has very good ability to out kite us and mercs and snipers have exceptional survivability as well. The likelihood of my vigi guardian killing any reasonable merc one on one is pretty low.

 

I also agree that our design is to be an in your face sort of damage dealer. We're not trying to be sneaky or glass cannons but the walk up and stab you with a lightsaber (or punch you in the face with a gun for VG I guess) types. And our DCDs just don't give us the ability to do so.

 

As far as stealth in 4v4 I find the dude who stealths out and makes you wait in an arena incredibly annoying but I believe it's also a substantial part of stealth classes survivability, I could be horrendously wrong as my shadow is a tank and my operative a healer and I don't PvP on either.

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but I believe it's also a substantial part of stealth classes survivability
Personally, I could never see where they were trading anything for the benefits of stealth. In my general MMO experience, stealth DPS are always one of the most overtuned classes, with excessive burst and substantial DCDs. Frankly, the advantage of stealth is that you don't need to be as survivable, because stealth allows you to pick your battles, or escape them when they turn against you.

 

Giving them reasonable survival as well just pushes them into OP. And the archetype attracts players who feel they should default win every 1v1, while still having the option of stealthing to run away from a 3v1 or unfavorable 2v1. At various points, balance in this game has certainly reinforced the idea that stealth classes default win 1v1. I know dueling leagues used to break operatives and scoundrels out specifically because they were so dominant in 1v1 versus every other class (no trinity there, no balance there, no counterplay there, etc).

 

tl;dr - I'd rather they err on the side of stealth being too weak, than stealth being too strong. I suppose the bulk of my post, though, is somewhat tangential to the larger issue of channeled healing to full, which stealthers enjoy more readily than non-stealthers.

 

Btw, I have a skanky dps spec to share with you. I'm too lazy (read: cheap) to try it out, but maybe you can.

 

Guardians and sentinels also have the best leap in the game.
It's the best gap closer, but a gap closer only brings you into melee range. A reasonable point to make, but I think it only adds to the idea that the class is easily kited. It's probably even used as justification for making the class more easily kited, even as it itself makes the class more easily kited. Edited by Ansultares
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+ PT/VG they are a melee class that has one ****** gap closer and one pull but can get face rolled within a single stun. Its by far one of the worst classes to play in PvP.

 

That's it Sents when properly may be a bit too tanky.

 

Mercs/Mandos Yeah 75% heal and a 75% heal definitly too strong.

 

Juggs maybe need to do a bit more research.

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This in general is something of the problem these two classes (jugg/guard and pt/vg) have with ranked. It's completely contradictory to their intended play style. Never mind that ranked coddles stealth as if they were the supreme overlords of gaming (vomit). These two classes want to get in there and face tank, but their kits don't support it. Nor do their kits support kiting; both of these classes were shoehorned into being easily kited; they don't do well trying to kite others.

 

I think it requires changes to the format as much as it requires changes to the classes. For example, once you enter combat in a round, there should be no means of exiting combat, including stealth.

 

There is nothing wrong with Juggs and PT in ranked or PVP in general.

 

The reason why they are so useless is because first of all the trigger happy classes have endless self healing utilities which allow them to survive in a lot of cases and be tanky in the same time.

 

Jugg don't have stealth or enough self heals to keep themselves alive.

 

The only advantage a marauder has over a dps jugg is ruthless aggressor and the ability to stealth out and heal up. In 4.0 there weren't many maras in solo ranked que. So if they hit their defenses harder than they should, it will fall back to 4.0 glass canon role.

 

The solution to this is to tune down the trigger happy classes' defenses so they come back into "normal" territory so they melee classes won't look so helpless against them.

 

But Bioware won't do that properly because it's not easy to do. Nerfing and buffing dps is easy. Messing with dcd's is not because it requires a lot more effort to get right and it has been their habit to overnerf and overbuff(see mercs) things.

 

Look at Hatred, once a serious PVP contender now totally crippled and useless.Yes.. Hatred sin is worse than jugg DPS.

Edited by DavidAtkinson
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