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[Topic] Which of the OG Companions should/could viably be same/sex romanceable?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
[Topic] Which of the OG Companions should/could viably be same/sex romanceable?

SithtobeJedi's Avatar


SithtobeJedi
05.25.2018 , 12:56 AM | #1
I've seen the topic covered when the new patches come out, and it's always a discussion when returning companions should be given the option to be same sexed romanced. What I hear as a counter argument to this usually comes in one of three forms.

1) Their characters are already established so 'turning' them bi-sexual would be against their character and make no sense.
2) Not every OG companion should have a same sex option as that's not how it works in the real world.(Often citing Mass Effect and Dragon Age as examples as they have a dose of both)
3) Indifference

My response to this however is that the argument that all of the OG Companions were "all established as not being bi-sexual/lesbian" is leaving out one important detail. The truth of the matter is, they were all written during a time when the people creating TOR had no intentions of even having same sex romances as options in the game, so when you have that mentality from the get go, that is the nature of how the characters were created. They weren't created with that option in mind, and to me, that is a very big point that people have left out of that side of the argument.

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They weren't created with the same mentality that went into Mass Effect of even Dragon Age where BIOWARE had a plan and went "These characters will be bi-sexual/gay/lesbian and these characters will be straight, and then wrote the rest accordingly.

They were created with the mentality that there wasn't going to be any Same-Sex stuff period in the game, so it never even entered into the equation of implementing or not implementing it into the character personalities in terms of romance. It was straightforward. Pun intended.

Because even back then, we remember when at the time Community Manager Sean Dahlberg was going around closing threads, and verbally saying both out loud, and within anything LGBT related

"These are terms that do not exist in Star Wars.

Thread closed."
============================

What this means to me was that the game was not initially approached with anything LGBT related or in mind at all. Unlike Mass Effect and Dragon Age, it never entered into the equations whether or not the OG Companions would/could be bi-sexual/gay as it related to romance of the main character because even if they were it was never considered as an option. So because it was considered that it would never be an option during development, it never came into the equation whether or not they could viably be romanced by the same sex, as the game was not created from the standpoint of even having this in mind.

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However times changed, the community rebelled, and Bioware had to apologize. But it cannot be denied, that in the original game's design at some point in TOR's original development it was decided that same-sex romances wasn't in line with the universe, because the 'terms' didn't exist. So it never entered the equation as far as if any companion was, or was not, in terms of romantic options. This is a big point.
============================

So bearing that in mind let's fast forward to now. The reason I bring up that little fact is because those that say "The OG Companions were already written as straight with no compromise." to me, has more to do with how they entered into their early development of the game that same sex was a no, for the overall scheme of the game so it never came up as a character romance option, and the most they intended it would appear would be as a throwaway trait(the situation with Kaliyo for example).

Because of this, I don't believe that the OG Companions ever got a chance when it came to character development, for it to be decided whether or not it was viable storywise that they could be romanced by the same gender. They never got the chance to be written with that as an option in mind where a developer could go "Yes that fits his/her character/personality" and "No, that doesn't fit his/her character/personality."

The more recent creations were written with that in mind, which is why we got the companions we have now with that in mind. However I think that it would be very viable to go back and look at the OG Companions we had upon launch and ask ourselves or at least analyze/give our opinions on which of them, if the option for same sex had been available back then, would have been, and/or should be in the future, capable of being same/sex romanced.
============================

Therefore, I'd like to open up a discussion on the OG Companion characters. Which do you all feel could be written as bi-sexual or gay viably, and which do you think should be romanceable options for same sex? And why?

Obviously it can't be all of them, but you only have to comment on the characters you're familiar with, but I think it's good to get this kind of discussion going in a structured way. Instead of only putting it out there that we'd like the OG Companions to be same sex romanceable. Instead, actually start giving out names of some specifically, and give the reasons why.

So let's get down to it!!! I'll mark both the Romanceable and Non-Romanceable companions for the sake of keeping things neat, but for the sake of discussion of the topic at hand, they'll all be 'Romanceable'. Don't forget, they can be pan/bi-sexual as well(such as in Vector's case where I'd personally figure gender wouldn't matter) I'll also keep track here of those whom are mentioned. I'll put numbers next to the ones that get more than one mention.
============================
Kaliyo: █ █ █
Mako: █ █
DS Jaesa: █ █
Vector: █
Akaavi Spar: █ █
Risha: █
Doc: █
Quinn: █ █
Pierce: █
Broonmark: █
============================
OG COMPANIONS:

EMPIRE:
  • Sith Warrior:
    • ROMANCEABLE
      • Vette
      • Malavai Quinn
      • Jaesa Willsaam
    • NON-ROMANCEABLE
      • Lieutenant Pierce
      • Broonmark
  • Sith Inquisitor:
    • ROMANCEABLE
      • Khem Val
      • Andronikos Revel
      • Ashara Zavros
    • NON-ROMANCEABLE
      • Talos Drellik
      • Xalek
  • Imperial Agent:
    • ROMANCEABLE
      • Kaliyo Djannis
      • Vector Hyllus
      • Raina Temple
    • NON-ROMANCEABLE
      • Dr. Eckard Lokin
      • SCORPIO
  • Bounty Hunter:
    • ROMANCEABLE
      • Mako
      • Torian Cadera
    • NON-ROMANCEABLE
      • Blizz
      • Gault Rennow
      • Skadge


REPUBLIC:
  • Jedi Knight:
    • ROMANCEABLE
      • Kira Carsen
      • Doc
    • NON-ROMANCEABLE
      • T7-O1
      • Sgt. Fideltin Rusk
      • Lord Scourge
  • Jedi Consular:
    • ROMANCEABLE
      • Nadia Grell
      • Lt. Felix Iresso
    • NON-ROMANCEABLE
      • Qyzen Fess
      • Tharan Cedrax
      • Zenith
  • Smuggler:
    • ROMANCEABLE
      • Corso Riggs
      • Risha
      • Akaavi Spar
    • NON-ROMANCEABLE
      • Bowdaar
      • Languss Tuno
  • Trooper:
    • ROMANCEABLE
      • Aric Jorgan
      • Elara Dorne
    • NON-ROMANCEABLE
      • M1-4X
      • Tanno Vik
      • Sgt. Yuun


Have fun! And as always please try to keep the discussion productive ^_^

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Asmodesu's Avatar


Asmodesu
05.25.2018 , 01:56 AM | #2
Gualt already has a significant other, Hylo Visz, so shouldn't be on any romancable lists at all.. it's like half his entire history and future, and she's too important to him as a character.
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iFenris's Avatar


iFenris
05.25.2018 , 03:09 AM | #3
Would like to point out that you mixed up Risha, Elara, Tanno, Bowdaar, Languss Tuno and Forex. Elara, Forex, and Tanno are Trooper. Risha, Languss Tuno and Bowdaar is Smuggler.

DS Jaesa never seemed to care who she "did it" with. So I'd say she's defs Bi. But at the time of making her romance they were still under Lucas and he didn't want same sex romances. Had he not been in control I am pretty sure we'd have seen a f/f romance with her.

AdornedBlood's Avatar


AdornedBlood
05.25.2018 , 04:14 AM | #4
One of the original companions is bi-sexual : Akaavi Spar. If you romance her and talk about the Mandalorian concept of "love" she will tell you that phrase in Mando'a, the one meaning " I will know you forever". If you tell her that phrase, she will say something like " no man or woman have ever told me that" . Sure, by "woman" you could understand mother,sister, clan sister, but here she is definitely talking about "woman" as in "lover", not as in "family/clan member".

SteveTheCynic's Avatar


SteveTheCynic
05.25.2018 , 04:41 AM | #5
Based on an assumption that they will not rewrite the dialogue *words* (including the post-marriage letters) and they will not re-record those dialogues in any way(1):

Aric Jorgan is straight. In the flirt conversations, he talks about the Trooper as being a woman, using that word.

Doc's final romance-series conversations with a female non-human Knight don't make sense if the knight is male. (He talks about their need to adopt if they want children being driven by questions of (potential) genetic incompatibility.)

Quinn's post-marriage letters to the Warrior include references to the effect that pregnancy will have on her ability to fight. That's obviously not relevant to a male/male relationship.

For Corso, a male/male relationship seems (to me) to be inconsistent with his general attitude towards women, but I may be reading too much into that.

I think there are similar things that you can find in most of the other romances.

DS Jaesa is NOT a pure lesbian - when she mentions her drunken exploits with an Imperial soldier early in the romance ("It's fuzzy"), she uses the word "him". But it's long enough since I did that that I don't remember whether she refers to the Warrior as a man rather than a sex-independent term. I have a niggling feeling that she does.

Caveat lector: I've done most of them once only. Ashara and Raina Temple, not at all, and I'm just starting Smuggler/Akaavi (just beginning Hoth) for the first time.

Fussy point: I've seen other posts lying around that suggested that the drive to be straight-only when the game released didn't come, as such, from Bioware, but from George himself. (Certainly it seems incosisten with the way they wrote their other games.)

My gut feel is that it's impractical, at this point, to change it just for the few whose writing is ambiguous, given that there are several "important" ones who are definitely NOT ambiguous in their writing, for one reason or another. (Aric uses the word "woman", Quinn talks about pregnancy in the letter, Corso's sexuality seems tied to his gentlemanly attitude to women, etc.).

Yes, all those things *could* be fixed, but at a cost of developer, writer, tester, and so on time that could be, I think, better used elsewhere. It's a shame, in a way, because I would have liked for my first Commando to be able to romance Elara, but she couldn't.

So,to recap:
* They *could* do this, given a freedom to rewrite romance arcs and other story elements and (re)record romance dialogues.
* Doing so would be take a measure of time away from building *new* content.
* That amount of time would be substantial.
* It would prevent that time being spent on new stuff.
* I personally would prefer to see new stuff rather than modifications to old stuff.
* If they did do it, I would probably make use of it for certain characters.

(Final note: I'm not convinced by the arguments for Kaliyo's "bi" nature, but I don't care to enter a debate about *why* that's the case. It comes down to my opinion versus other people's, and that's generally a source of futile bickering.)
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JamaicanCastle's Avatar


JamaicanCastle
05.25.2018 , 08:23 AM | #6
Kaliyo claims she isn't romantically attracted to women, but I don't really believe her. One of the recurring notes in her personal story (both her vanilla companion quests and Anarchy in Paradise) is how terrible she is at really knowing and understanding herself. So I personally would lean towards putting her on the list.

Mako, I could see. Maybe not for anyone else, but definitely for her Grand Champion. (And for Coral. I mean, uh, forget I said anything. <.<)

Vector, probably. I have to imagine that when you're hooked up to a hive mind of alien bugs, things like humanoid genders (or humanoids, period) don't seem all that important.

Quinn would give it a try if he thought it would advance his career, but then he died on Iokath so it doesn't much matter.

Risha, I mean... aristocrat. Says it all, really.

Doc. Nobody can be that aggressively "oh, yes, I am 100% into women" without trying to hide something.

Quote: Originally Posted by Asmodesu View Post
Gualt already has a significant other, Hylo Visz, so shouldn't be on any romancable lists at all.. it's like half his entire history and future, and she's too important to him as a character.
Sounds like a perfect opportunity for a threesome to me.

SithtobeJedi's Avatar


SithtobeJedi
05.25.2018 , 11:06 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by iFenris View Post
Would like to point out that you mixed up Risha, Elara, Tanno, Bowdaar, Languss Tuno and Forex. Elara, Forex, and Tanno are Trooper. Risha, Languss Tuno and Bowdaar is Smuggler.
Fixed

Quote: Originally Posted by iFenris View Post
DS Jaesa never seemed to care who she "did it" with. So I'd say she's defs Bi.
I would agree with that, experiencing the freedom with her emotions that she once had to surpress can lead to many truths she didn't allow herself to feel or acknowledge due to the restrictive nature of the Jedi and 'feelings'.

Quote: Originally Posted by AdornedBlood View Post
One of the original companions is bi-sexual : Akaavi Spar. If you romance her and talk about the Mandalorian concept of "love" she will tell you that phrase in Mando'a, the one meaning " I will know you forever". If you tell her that phrase, she will say something like " no man or woman have ever told me that" . Sure, by "woman" you could understand mother,sister, clan sister, but here she is definitely talking about "woman" as in "lover", not as in "family/clan member".
Agreed, she is very much so talking about a woman in terms of love she is capable of giving. Therefore there's no reason imo she shouldn't be a romanceable option for a female character as well, it wouldn't break her lore, and seeing her again there should be the dialogue options to pursue such. 100% agreed there.


Quote: Originally Posted by JamaicanCastle View Post
Kaliyo claims she isn't romantically attracted to women, but I don't really believe her. One of the recurring notes in her personal story (both her vanilla companion quests and Anarchy in Paradise) is how terrible she is at really knowing and understanding herself. So I personally would lean towards putting her on the list.
I very much can see this being the case as well, kind of like Jack in the Mass Effect series. As she grows more into understanding herself, and her feelings for the player she commits to them, but it's really ONLY for the player to get that close to her in such a way. Kaliyo could very much be the same way. She honestly could address it the way Jack does with her 'attracted to you but not looking for love, too many issues" etc perspective, but eventually come around as you grow closer. It would make her harder to romance but possible, more so about how much she grows to care about/love you. Not like we haven't seen BioWare do similar.

Quote: Originally Posted by JamaicanCastle View Post
Mako, I could see. Maybe not for anyone else, but definitely for her Grand Champion. (And for Coral. I mean, uh, forget I said anything. <.<)
Agreed, I could see Mako as well, but only for her Champion, and to be honest Mako is probably one of the ones I wanted to romance the most on my Bounty Hunter. It just fit, and I couldn't put it into words. But yes, it most definitely would be something she only felt for the main character's bounty hunter and if any other woman tried they'd fail.

Quote: Originally Posted by JamaicanCastle View Post
Vector, probably. I have to imagine that when you're hooked up to a hive mind of alien bugs, things like humanoid genders (or humanoids, period) don't seem all that important.
Yes, you make a very good point there, there's a strong chance gender may not likely matter all things considered in his case.

Quote: Originally Posted by JamaicanCastle View Post
Quinn would give it a try if he thought it would advance his career, but then he died on Iokath so it doesn't much matter.
Quinn seems the type to do whatever is necessary to get ahead or play whatever role he needed to play.

Quote: Originally Posted by JamaicanCastle View Post
Risha, I mean... aristocrat. Says it all, really.
"Never argue with a fool, from a distance no one can tell the difference."
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Raynezazki's Avatar


Raynezazki
05.25.2018 , 12:29 PM | #8
Quinn.

Him getting salty when my PC hit on that chick on Nar Shadaa was XD

OldVengeance's Avatar


OldVengeance
05.25.2018 , 06:34 PM | #9
I had a long post in response but the stupid forums deleted it. I'll try to remember as much of it as I can.

Anyway, queer people don't have any one personality type. I fail to see how you can conclude anything anything about the class companions' respective sexualities based on what "makes sense with their personality." Any of them could have been queer. But by the same token, I don't think any individual companion needed to be written as queer for their character to make sense.

Dark Jaesa might be a promiscuous hedonist (at least, at first) but that doesn't mean she can't have preferences. In fact, late in the game she specifically mentions that "uncomplicated strong men" are "her type." Just because someone is promiscuous doesn't mean they are necessarily bisexual. And just because someone is a promiscuous bisexual doesn't mean that they are willing to have sex with anyone. Isabela from Dragon Age 2 is a good example of that.

Vector could theoretically be bisexual, but I don't think him being a Joiner would have anything to do with it. Are you saying that the Joining process also erases sexuality? Would a lesbian become physically or romantically attracted to men if the Kiliks got their hands on her?

Also I went back and looked up Akaavi's romance conversations. She says "I have only heard it in stories. No man or women I knew ever said it." That doesn't necessarily imply she was talking about her partners saying it to her. It sounds to me more like she meant that no Mandalorian she has known has ever said it to any other person.

I think that Kaliyo is the only one who the game suggests has had sexual relations with people of the same sex. But the game had the opportunity to canonize her as bisexual in Anarchy in Paradise, but still chose to have her say she was straight. That suggests it's possible that the devs always specifically envisioned her as heterosexual.

Now the question of whether they would or should be open to same sex romance when returned is a separate question. I have mixed feelings on the issue.

We know they aren't "gay" because we know they are interested in the opposite sex by virtue of the very fact that they are vanilla class romance options. Some of them reference gender in their dialogue more explicitly than others, but technically this only tells us that they are interested in one gender, not that they aren't interested in the other.

SithtobeJedi's Avatar


SithtobeJedi
05.26.2018 , 09:21 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by JamaicanCastle View Post
Kaliyo claims she isn't romantically attracted to women.
I know that I agreed with your entire point, but I wanted to comment on this statement about Kaliyo. Which I've seen a lot of in general. So this isn't a reply to your overall point (which I agree with) just the statement in general about Kaliyo that I quoted/hear a lot.

Kaliyo it is strongly implied to have been in a romantic relationship with Ona Querit before running away. Don't forget Ona Querit was so broken hearted when she abandoned her that she cried for a month. That's heartbreak. Not to mention Kaliyo was the one that seduced her and brought her into the lifestyle before running away as she always did.

So it seems that Kaliyo did have a "far closer than friends" relationship with Menace but she ran away as was her MO, and the broken hearted girl then learned to do the things Kaliyo did and became stronger and eventually a bounty hunter. It's one of the reasons I'd love for Ona Querit to be a new companion if they were looking for an additional Romanceable option in the future, because I find her story very intriguing and I'd love to have Kalyo's rival on my side as one character while dealing with Kaliyo on the other, it would be very interesting.

Nonetheless whenever someone goes on about Kaliyo never having been romantically interested in a girl, it was very clear that Ona Querit was hers, perhaps what became of her is why Kaliyo tries to avoid such things now considering the last time she did she broke a girl's heart and she wound up turning her into a bounty hunter, a lifestyle she deep down didn't want for her. So you could look into that as to why Kaliyo avoid's such relationships now, and from a narrative sense that would make perfect sense.


Just wanted to bring that up ^_^
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