I feel like venting. Maybe this is just an isolated incident or maybe there's something I missing.

 

Why the F would a tank demand for me to pull enemies by ccing enemies at the start?

(I'm a sorcerer so I can whirlwind everything) Literally almost every battle he started getting on my case demanding that I CC. I initially told him it's a bad idea for healers to pull but didn't feel like arguing with him when he started ranting so I just played along with him and did it (And suffered the natural consequences of having to keep myself alive just barely while every *********** thing attacked me)

 

He demanded to know my mmorpg experience and how much experience I've had playing swtor then went on to lecture me about how he know hows to play this game and something about you're supposed to cc, than I aggro so they don't attack you (which usually never works out as planned.)

 

I'm wondering why I didn't just tell him to stop ordering me to do stupid **** instead of following his idiotic orders. I think there are times when your not supposed to do what the tanks says and this is one of them. Oh well.

 

I sincerely hope that this is an isolated incident and that players don't actually expect, let alone demand that the healer initiate every fight with a cc. Sorry, just felt the need to rant, I hate it when you're grouped with people that feel like being jerks.

 

Tell me if I'm wrong, is there any scenario where it's ok for a tank to demand that the healer initiate combat with a cc?

A) He didn't understand the difference between (for example) an operative's out of combat CC vs yours.

B) He doesn't understand the importance of initial agro.

C) He's a bad tank/player.

 

You should have ignored him and then CC'd something once he pulled. If he is worth anything, he would have started shutting up.

Edited July 20, 2012 by DiLune

A) He didn't understand the difference between (for example) an operative's out of combat CC vs yours.

B) He doesn't understand the importance of initial agro.

C) He's a bad tank/player.

 

You should have ignored him and then CC'd something once he pulled. If he is worth anything, he would have started shutting up.

 

That's what I usually do, he started ranting when I insisted on doing it that way. Oh well, your right should have just ignored him.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Namw

Some people just want ot watch the world burn.

What he was trying to do actually works, and is great... but it requires people to have good reaction times and usually to be on voice chat.

What he was trying to do actually works, and is great... but it requires people to have good reaction times and usually to be on voice chat.

 

Now I'm curious. What exactly is he trying to do?

Now I'm curious. What exactly is he trying to do?

 

Make the healer's butt hole bigger.. apparently.. Every MMO i've ever played, the tank pulls first, then CCing happens, not the other way around.

Every MMO i've ever played, the tank pulls first, then CCing happens, not the other way around.

 

When I tank I generally don't ask my healer to CC. I do, however, either have the instant-cast Sorcerers go first or watch the cast bar of the CC'er and pull half way through the cast. But then I am usually running with guildies - I wouldn't expect a PUG healer to CC unless it was an Operative.

Tell me if I'm wrong, is there any scenario where it's ok for a tank to demand that the healer initiate combat with a cc?

 

No scenario that I ever heard of. The last thing you want is a healer with aggro on something, much less everything.

No the situation does exist in a way, and it is a good tactic if you have the timing right.

 

The strategy he's probably trying to use, is that you begin casting your Whirlwind and during the cast he'll leap to the group of mobs that he wants to grab. He should still be the first person actually acting on the mobs... but the Sage/Sorc would start casting first. It's a question of timing though... if he leaps too late, then obviously you'll have aggro.

 

The benefit is that the tactic reduces that big spike of damage a tank has at the beginning of a fight. All of the mobs are hitting on him at the beginning, so during that period he's usually taking a high amount of incoming damage. If you have pre-cast most of your WW cast, then not only does the WW remove one of the mobs more quickly - thus reducing that damage spike at the beginning... but because your CC cast is ended earlier too, you're free to be casting the early heals on the tank. If you wait for him to leap and then start your CC cast... then for that couple of seconds he has more damage incoming and you're not ready to heal him.

 

This also means, that if he can judge the timing well, he'll leap just fractionally before your CC lands. You get the most benefit out of it that way. I've tanked using this approach and I personally use the quite distinctive casting sound and judge it from that. Just a quick explanation and it usually goes OK. But as somebody else said too... if you have voice chat and an established group, then it's much easier to time well.

 

X

No the situation does exist in a way, and it is a good tactic if you have the timing right.

 

The strategy he's probably trying to use, is that you begin casting your Whirlwind and during the cast he'll leap to the group of mobs that he wants to grab. He should still be the first person actually acting on the mobs... but the Sage/Sorc would start casting first. It's a question of timing though... if he leaps too late, then obviously you'll have aggro.

 

The benefit is that the tactic reduces that big spike of damage a tank has at the beginning of a fight. All of the mobs are hitting on him at the beginning, so during that period he's usually taking a high amount of incoming damage. If you have pre-cast most of your WW cast, then not only does the WW remove one of the mobs more quickly - thus reducing that damage spike at the beginning... but because your CC cast is ended earlier too, you're free to be casting the early heals on the tank. If you wait for him to leap and then start your CC cast... then for that couple of seconds he has more damage incoming and you're not ready to heal him.

 

This also means, that if he can judge the timing well, he'll leap just fractionally before your CC lands. You get the most benefit out of it that way. I've tanked using this approach and I personally use the quite distinctive casting sound and judge it from that. Just a quick explanation and it usually goes OK. But as somebody else said too... if you have voice chat and an established group, then it's much easier to time well.

 

X

 

Far better tactic to have the sage/sorc bubble the tank first, then the tank leaps in and gets aggro, then CC that one mob as the tank is leaping in.. Really the tank shouldn't have any issue with 1 extra mob in a pull, for a couple of seconds. If he does then there are bigger issues at hand here, like gearing or build. Also, while this tactic might work on voice chat and an established group, I wouldn't depend on it otherwise because of desynchronization. You can't really count on what you are seeing and hearing to be what is really happening server side. You are going off of the sound in game, therefore you could be leaping in too late to snap aggro from the group before the cast goes off.

Well yes, obviously you bubble too - I'd have thought that goes without saying really. And I think I stressed several times the importance of being able to time it well. But it does work and can be used very effectively.

 

OP asked whether there could ever be such a situation... and yes there can; no more, no less.

 

X

The other reason to have the healer start the pull with a CC is that a lot of mobs have a jump-in ability of their own, and if the tank goes in first, those mobs will jump into melee where they will be un-CC-able due to wild AoE. Although in this situation hopefully you are being asked to CC the jumpers...

1. Pull

2. LoS-kite under tank's AoE

3. ???

4. Profit.

Also some mobs have quick casting abilities that can add stress to the healers role, think security droids in HM LI (scorched shot), ccing them on pull can guarantee that they dont get a cast off while the tank is picking everything up.

Most trash mobs tends to be positions far apart. So if you CC a mob initially, it's easier for the tank to pull the remaining mobs to a location where the DPS can AoE without breaking CC.

 

As to initial aggro, if the tank doesn't generate AoE threat, the mobs will come for the healer regardless.

Most trash mobs tends to be positions far apart. So if you CC a mob initially, it's easier for the tank to pull the remaining mobs to a location where the DPS can AoE without breaking CC.

 

As to initial aggro, if the tank doesn't generate AoE threat, the mobs will come for the healer regardless.

 

As a Jugg tank, without the ability to pull, I would much rather the mobs initially agro me and run to me if they are runners than have them running out of my AE range, toward the healers, while I am leaping in.

Bad players are bad.

Correct idea - poor execution is what it sounds like.

 

A heal specced sorc or sage's CC has a long cast time.

 

Such CCers should go first and while they are casting the tank needs to jump in to start tanking stuff and getting agro on all non-CCd mobs.

As the tank initiates the fight is a good time for instant CC owners to cast.

 

If the tank times it correctly - you as the healer should never be getting agro, your cc completes just as the fight starts - therefore

you're not spending the first few crucial seconds of a fight when the tank is taking a lot of damage trying to cast a lengthy CC.

Instead you're available to heal as needed.

Whenever I run Kaon Under Siege with a pickup group, I mark the Mercenaries and wait for someone to CC them before I jump in. If I don't, what inevitably happens is I immediately get constricted for the full duration and die from it, because other people in the group don't interrupt. In some group compositions, the healer will be the only source of CC (e.g. Vanguard, Sentinel, Gunslinger, Sage) so the healer has to be the one to start the fight.

Anyone saying the healer should CC before the pull are mind blowingly bad tanks.

 

There is no benefit to doing in that way...lol

 

Let the tank get initial aggro that way the healer doesn't get attacked at all. The healer can precast a cc that will hit right after the tank pulls but that requires coordination which pugs don't have. It's not the healers job to take the attacks and there is no reason whatsoever to play it out that way.

Anyone saying the healer should CC before the pull are mind blowingly bad tanks.

 

There is no benefit to doing in that way...lol

 

I already mentioned one type of encounter that has a benefit to opening that way (Mercenaries in Kaon Under Siege, who will immediately begin channeling 30s stuns the instant a fight starts), but here are two more:

 

- the hybrid shield tech guys in Lost Island immediately put a shield on the little rakghouls when a fight starts. If you open with CC on them, they don't, making the fight much easier.

 

- the Hunter Creeper encounters in Karagga's Palace are brutal if you don't open with CC on the techs, because they will cleanse each other

I already mentioned one type of encounter that has a benefit to opening that way (Mercenaries in Kaon Under Siege, who will immediately begin channeling 30s stuns the instant a fight starts), but here are two more:

 

- the hybrid shield tech guys in Lost Island immediately put a shield on the little rakghouls when a fight starts. If you open with CC on them, they don't, making the fight much easier.

 

- the Hunter Creeper encounters in Karagga's Palace are brutal if you don't open with CC on the techs, because they will cleanse each other

 

Why can't the tank charge/stun the merc and THEN have the healer CC?

 

The shield techs still get off a shield even if they are floated often times. And those fights are laughably easy anyway.

 

In KP If you float one before the battle the other one will free it anyway, meaning you either have to sap or get them at the same time like you said, so give me one good reason why the tank can't pull BEFORE the CC is cast. It's just completely pointless to have a healer CC something and gain aggro before the tank, it serves no purpose. In the case of one sapper and one floater, it should be precast to go off immediately after the tank pulls, which takes some coordination but is infinitely better than letting the healer get aggro.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Mordeguy

Another point to keep in mind is that if you want your Operative/Scoundrel healer to CC a non-droid mob, they have to do it before the pull. Although of course that one doesn't pull aggro. Unless you're dumb and took Sedatives or whatever the Scoundrel equivalent is called.

You should have ignored him and then CC'd something once he pulled. If he is worth anything, he would have started shutting up.

 

I usually let the one who CC's start casting and before the CC hits I charge in and pull the mobs.

This way the healer or dps can do his role the whole fight and doesn't have to CC while we fight.