Okay so a few things.. PT's don't need a buff in pve. At all. Full stop. AP is the highest sustained (and overall) burst spec it's not funny. It's a bit asinine it even has 10m abilities considering it's doing top tier melee level damage. Not to mention pyro shield and other point blank effects.

 

As someone who does a lot of high end raiding (5-6) nights of either full clears of nim or apex boss pulls i can see for sure you are just flat out wrong. What PT's lack in DCD's or raid uility, they make up for in raw damage output, with either spec. PT's are basically a requirement for taking down brontes, while pyro doing less there, still has better burn parses than any other melee class aside from the top 0.01% of melee who can do 8k+ at burn. If anything, their needs to be a redesign of AP and somewhat of a nerf to pyro to bring it in line with other classes.

For the reasons said above. It's got the lowest APM requirments for any melee class (which all require more, and are worse)

 

For pvp, that's a different monster entirely. I'm not a major pvper but i do understand how flimsy the basic design of pt's is. Honestly, they need to scrap the entire idea of a glass cannon, nerf the damage moderately, and provide it with some form of utility and more DCD's. PT tanka should be changed as well, seeing how unviable those tanks are for a lot of fights.

 

My two cents

I agree with this post alot. DPS PT in raids are beast modes in the parse charts. They are the best DPS in FP's and alot of other content. The problem is they fall way down to trash tier in PvP because of the lack of DCD's - the only time PT's become redeemable and viable are in Group ranked situations, with team speak and carefully coordinated mezzes + hardswaps.

It annoys me to great end that BW has consistently body slammed my favorite PvP classes over the years with unbuffs after unbuffs and even nerfs (taking away 30% dmg reduction on stun, shame on you BW).

I agree with this post alot. DPS PT in raids are beast modes in the parse charts. They are the best DPS in FP's and alot of other content. The problem is they fall way down to trash tier in PvP because of the lack of DCD's - the only time PT's become redeemable and viable are in Group ranked situations, with team speak and carefully coordinated mezzes + hardswaps.

 

It annoys me to great end that BW has consistently body slammed my favorite PvP classes over the years with unbuffs after unbuffs and even nerfs (taking away 30% dmg reduction on stun, shame on you BW).

Sure the DPS mode is amazing. As a tank which it is 1 of the 3, it absolutely sucks and that's where it needs help.

I agree with this post alot. DPS PT in raids are beast modes in the parse charts. They are the best DPS in FP's and alot of other content. The problem is they fall way down to trash tier in PvP because of the lack of DCD's - the only time PT's become redeemable and viable are in Group ranked situations, with team speak and carefully coordinated mezzes + hardswaps.

 

It annoys me to great end that BW has consistently body slammed my favorite PvP classes over the years with unbuffs after unbuffs and even nerfs (taking away 30% dmg reduction on stun, shame on you BW).

Because in Operations players can group stuff. Any class that is in constant usage of its AoE abilities will be pulling same numbers as PT or even more, but PT cannot pull those same numbers on single bosses..

I still don't get why some players think PT where not intended to be a Mid - Ranged class? went the Original developers got it right the right the first time..

Because in Operations players can group stuff. Any class that is in constant usage of its AoE abilities will be pulling same numbers as PT or even more, but PT cannot pull those same numbers on single bosses..

 

I still don't get why some players think PT where not intended to be a Mid - Ranged class? went the Original developers got it right the right the first time..

No. PT's don't have top parses because of 'fluff' PT's have top parses because of things like pyro shield, shoulder cannons, rebounders and other stuff that requires point blank range. That's why i mentioned brontes burn. There's no fluff, there only however much damage you can dish out because you have to push hands (shoulder cannons, pyro shield, blowing your heat) before you reset the stacks. That's a lot of the reasons why PT's blow everything else out of the water.

Another fight as an example. Tyrans nim, PT's are classified as a melee dps there and get parses as much as 1k higher than other specs just because of passives and unique utility, as well as top tier dps. Pyro has like the second highest dps on a dummy on parsely as well. If you are getting low parses or lower parses than other people it's a skill based result, not a class based result.

I'm not going to be one of those people who tell you to 'git gud' just rather the truth to how these classes work and where they line up vs other dps. I main a carnage marauder, a class that was mutilated throught the start and twice more during 5.0. It's like the 4th lowest dps parse wise yet i am regularly able to get top parses, not only for my spec but for fights in general.

It comes down to knowing your class inside and out and know how to apply that knowledge of your class to whatever circumstances you are facing. PT's may not be as viable in pvp because of a lack of defensives but i don' think you can write them off completely. It doesn't even take a viable class to be a viable dps, it takes being a good player to make a sub optimal class function and excel.

No. PT's don't have top parses because of 'fluff' PT's have top parses because of things like pyro shield, shoulder cannons, rebounders and other stuff that requires point blank range. That's why i mentioned brontes burn. There's no fluff, there only however much damage you can dish out because you have to push hands (shoulder cannons, pyro shield, blowing your heat) before you reset the stacks. That's a lot of the reasons why PT's blow everything else out of the water.

 

Another fight as an example. Tyrans nim, PT's are classified as a melee dps there and get parses as much as 1k higher than other specs just because of passives and unique utility, as well as top tier dps. Pyro has like the second highest dps on a dummy on parsely as well. If you are getting low parses or lower parses than other people it's a skill based result, not a class based result.

 

I'm not going to be one of those people who tell you to 'git gud' just rather the truth to how these classes work and where they line up vs other dps. I main a carnage marauder, a class that was mutilated throught the start and twice more during 5.0. It's like the 4th lowest dps parse wise yet i am regularly able to get top parses, not only for my spec but for fights in general.

 

It comes down to knowing your class inside and out and know how to apply that knowledge of your class to whatever circumstances you are facing. PT's may not be as viable in pvp because of a lack of defensives but i don' think you can write them off completely. It doesn't even take a viable class to be a viable dps, it takes being a good player to make a sub optimal class function and excel.

And noone is arguing that the DPS sucks. Or if they are, IMHO they are arguing the wrong case. PT/VG primary role is TANK, just like shad/sin guar/jugg. And out of the 3 tanking classes, they are the absolute worst.

That needs to change.

It’s not only the DPS, it's about the fun that was removed with 5.0. All 30m skills have been removed. Death from above changed for a cheap-looking animation. Since 5.0, you feel like a cripple. Even Guardians have more ranged skills.

THANKYOU. If I could I'd upvote this.

It’s not only the DPS, it's about the fun that was removed with 5.0. All 30m skills have been removed. Death from above changed for a cheap-looking animation. Since 5.0, you feel like a cripple. Even Guardians have more ranged skills.

Couldn't agree more..

And noone is arguing that the DPS sucks. Or if they are, IMHO they are arguing the wrong case. PT/VG primary role is TANK, just like shad/sin guar/jugg. And out of the 3 tanking classes, they are the absolute worst.

 

That needs to change.

Why is Tanking their "primary" role? It is one of three roles. Tank, DoT-DPS and Burst-DPS.

Actually PT/VG is in DPS Role Meta in many fights, due to passive Skills like Pyro-Shild or Close and Personal in fights like Brontes Burn or their really good overall dps on Pyrotech at Dummy like operation bosses like titan 6 or tyrans.

The Pt-Tanks were long time first choice in 5.x in pvp. only the overtuned enrage defense of juggs kicked pt tanks off the throne lately. solution is not to buff pt tanks instead recalculating enrage defense to a reasonable scale.

In Pve there are no bosses which you cant beat with pt/vg tanks. Shadow/Sins are most players favourite due to their "dcd" to avoid some special boss-skill-damage.

I dont get the intent of some people asking für nerfs und buffs of their main classes. most people are not reasonable if some changes effect their favourite class. look at how many guys defend the buffed enrage defense of the juggs lately. I mostly switch between PT, Sin & Merc DPS in PVE Mastermode-Content and PVP Regular and Ranked Warzones.

Imho 3.0 PT was to strong in most aspects (for example Revan Core Phase or PVP)

Mid-Range Classes was never a good idea in pvp. so reducing their range to mostly 10m was a good idea. with 10m you are still considered mid range to sin/mara

The only buff the deserve is the merc kolto overload as utility. You know what a advance prototype can do in pvp with a healer watching their backs?

For all those guys asking for buffs and nerfs I found a really good signature. dont know which guy has it but it's on point.

How PvP balance is achieved - Bioware please nerf paper its OP, scissors are fine as they are.

Regards,

Rock

.....

It's not really worth responding to the folks in this thread as most of them didn't even know what they are asking for until AdjeYo came in and told them what was changed. They are literally clueless. They don't even realize which patch they lost what.

It's not really worth responding to the folks in this thread as most of them didn't even know what they are asking for until AdjeYo came in and told them what was changed. They are literally clueless. They don't even realize which patch they lost what.

I've always known what I was asking for. To have as good as defenses as the Merc who in my estimation got 3 abilities/utilities that should of gone to the Powertech.

To start off with, im the guy who wrote those guides linked in OP (though I haven't commented here in a long time)

With that out of the way:

PTs/VGs are in their best state ever for PvE DPS. As such, if you want to complain, you should look to either complain about our PvP capabilities, or our tanking.

For PvP, Its mostly because of our complete lack of defensive cooldowns (Oh look, I have 1. And a half. WOOOOOOOOO)

For tanks, see the PvP excuse.

Despite this, Powertechs/Vanguards still have their ludicrous advantages of the past when they go into a raid. Almost no melee abilities and no casted/channeled abilities make it stupidly easy to keep the rotation up. In fact, they're in an even better state than before, as they can now move during the replacement Mortar Volley/Death from Above, while its on a much lower cooldown and does comparable damage (since its buff).

To add to that, there is also the fact that Pyrotech no longer has to channel flamethrower, making their rotation just as mobile as Advanced Prototype. So we end up with a class with dps specs that are actually better than what we had in the 3.x-4.x cycle, and we've still got Pyro Shield and Reflexive armor to make our in-raid damage even higher. Add to that Pyrotechs getting 30% AoE damage reduction and honestly, there is no excuse for you having problems as a PT or VG in a raid, unless tanking.

TL;DR - PT/VG are better in the only case the OP linked (also the only time they are better)

Why is Tanking their "primary" role? It is one of three roles. Tank, DoT-DPS and Burst-DPS.

Actually PT/VG is in DPS Role Meta in many fights, due to passive Skills like Pyro-Shild or Close and Personal in fights like Brontes Burn or their really good overall dps on Pyrotech at Dummy like operation bosses like titan 6 or tyrans.

 

The Pt-Tanks were long time first choice in 5.x in pvp. only the overtuned enrage defense of juggs kicked pt tanks off the throne lately. solution is not to buff pt tanks instead recalculating enrage defense to a reasonable scale.

In Pve there are no bosses which you cant beat with pt/vg tanks. Shadow/Sins are most players favourite due to their "dcd" to avoid some special boss-skill-damage.

 

 

I dont get the intent of some people asking für nerfs und buffs of their main classes. most people are not reasonable if some changes effect their favourite class. look at how many guys defend the buffed enrage defense of the juggs lately. I mostly switch between PT, Sin & Merc DPS in PVE Mastermode-Content and PVP Regular and Ranked Warzones.

Imho 3.0 PT was to strong in most aspects (for example Revan Core Phase or PVP)

Mid-Range Classes was never a good idea in pvp. so reducing their range to mostly 10m was a good idea. with 10m you are still considered mid range to sin/mara

 

The only buff the deserve is the merc kolto overload as utility. You know what a advance prototype can do in pvp with a healer watching their backs?

 

 

For all those guys asking for buffs and nerfs I found a really good signature. dont know which guy has it but it's on point.

Know what any class can do with a healer? Be unstoppable. That line almost makes tgis entire post a joke. And yes the dps disciplines are fine. The tanking one is a joke and rolled a PT to TANK. But hell at this rate a Marauder and Merc can tank better than a damn PT. Up close and personal + energy shield get laughed at by just about everything else.

Plus who in their right minds thinks Translocate is even any kind of useable skill?

Sorry most of this post is laughable.

To start off with, im the guy who wrote those guides linked in OP (though I haven't commented here in a long time)

 

With that out of the way:

 

PTs/VGs are in their best state ever for PvE DPS. As such, if you want to complain, you should look to either complain about our PvP capabilities, or our tanking.

 

For PvP, Its mostly because of our complete lack of defensive cooldowns (Oh look, I have 1. And a half. WOOOOOOOOO)

 

For tanks, see the PvP excuse.

 

Despite this, Powertechs/Vanguards still have their ludicrous advantages of the past when they go into a raid. Almost no melee abilities and no casted/channeled abilities make it stupidly easy to keep the rotation up. In fact, they're in an even better state than before, as they can now move during the replacement Mortar Volley/Death from Above, while its on a much lower cooldown and does comparable damage (since its buff).

 

To add to that, there is also the fact that Pyrotech no longer has to channel flamethrower, making their rotation just as mobile as Advanced Prototype. So we end up with a class with dps specs that are actually better than what we had in the 3.x-4.x cycle, and we've still got Pyro Shield and Reflexive armor to make our in-raid damage even higher. Add to that Pyrotechs getting 30% AoE damage reduction and honestly, there is no excuse for you having problems as a PT or VG in a raid, unless tanking.

 

TL;DR - PT/VG are better in the only case the OP linked (also the only time they are better)

no problem unless TANKING. There by rendering one entire discipline basically useless and the exact thing I wanted a damn PT for. Cause I'll tell ya this twinkle toes. Anything a PT can do for DPS, a Merc(even an IO Merc) can do better, and is more survivable. Infact the only thing a PT can do that a merc can't is taunt.

So spare me the whole "we're in a better place". Well when ya hit the floor, only place you can go is UP.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't want a FOTM scenario. I just want equal ability to tank as the other two tanks in the game. And you know as well as I do, PT isn't even in the same galaxy as a Sin or Jugg as far as tanking.

And it's about time that got rectified.

no problem unless TANKING. There by rendering one entire discipline basically useless and the exact thing I wanted a damn PT for. Cause I'll tell ya this twinkle toes. Anything a PT can do for DPS, a Merc(even an IO Merc) can do better, and is more survivable. Infact the only thing a PT can do that a merc can't is taunt.

 

So spare me the whole "we're in a better place". Well when ya hit the floor, only place you can go is UP.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I don't want a FOTM scenario. I just want equal ability to tank as the other two tanks in the game. And you know as well as I do, PT isn't even in the same galaxy as a Sin or Jugg as far as tanking.

 

And it's about time that got rectified.

For MasterMode Raiding PT/VG is the second of choice. They do the most damage of all tanks and due to passive their damage taking per second is on par with sin/shadow.

Sin/Shadow for MasterMode is the easier choice for your healers due to their reduction or avoiding of spike damage.

So it is a trade off for struggeling Raiding-Crews. More Tank-Dps or lesser spike Damage. It completly depends on your dps and healers.

In terms of PVP. PVP is not balanced on 1vs1 although some people seems to ask for that kind of balance...

Can you imagine what a pt/vg dps would do in a regular warzone if it had mercs dcds? pt can easily do 5-6k singletarget damage in a warzone and has spike of 12-20k dps.

But hard facts....:

from 5.1 (23rd January 2017 fixed Sin/Shadow Double-Stance Bug) to 5.9 (May 2018) VG/PT Tanks was first choice in PVP for more than a year. Their are multiple guys in solo and teamranked on gold rating as evidence. the team with pt/vg had a huge advantage compared to jugg/guardian & sin/shadow when on equal skill.

And the will be first choice again when the devs bring juggs enrage defense back to line.

So conclusion Ranking ff Tanks in pve is sin>pt>jugg and in pvp jugg>pt>sin. so yes actually completey in another galaxy...

And in which universe are mercs superior in DPS compared to PT at the moment?

List can contain some point of ironic statements

• Try to do Healing Adds in Tyth Veteran Mode Solo with a Merc (Good Luck) or Railguns on Nahut)
  
• Show me a 8.9k+ DPS Merc at Brontes Burn
  
• Which Merc beats PT's DPS on Revan Core
  
• I must have missed Mercs new Sonic Rebounder on almost every third boss in this game
  
• Arsenals "Average" 10k DPS on Dummy is legen...wait for it...dary
  
• Mercs and PT'S Deff are on the same level in pve. you die cause of bad playing of mechanics or bad healers. not because you are a pt.
  

For MasterMode Raiding PT/VG is the second of choice. They do the most damage of all tanks and due to passive their damage taking per second is on par with sin/shadow.

Sin/Shadow for MasterMode is the easier choice for your healers due to their reduction or avoiding of spike damage.

So it is a trade off for struggeling Raiding-Crews. More Tank-Dps or lesser spike Damage. It completly depends on your dps and healers.

They're definitely not second choice for nightmare raiding, not by a long shot. They actually have the highest dtps of all tanks versus any damage profile. Juggs tend to excell at figths with a bunch of melee/ranged damage. Sins tend to excell when there's a lot of internal/elemental damage. PTs have the highest damage taken whatever the distribution of damage (see this link).

As for them having the most damage, that was definitely true for a long time, but I'm not sure if that still holds. PT tanks really took the brunt of the tank damage nerfs.

Overall PT tanks have the highest dtps of all tanks without counting cooldowns, the worst selection of defensive cooldowns and they are also the only tank completely lacking a self cleanse. They surely aren't the second choice for nightmare raiding, they're the worst. That's not to say you can't make PT tanking work in nightmares, it's just going to take very good cooldown management and some extra work from your healers.

They're definitely not second choice for nightmare raiding, not by a long shot. They actually have the highest dtps of all tanks versus any damage profile. Juggs tend to excell at figths with a bunch of melee/ranged damage. Sins tend to excell when there's a lot of internal/elemental damage. PTs have the highest damage taken whatever the distribution of damage (see this link).

 

As for them having the most damage, that was definitely true for a long time, but I'm not sure if that still holds. PT tanks really took the brunt of the tank damage nerfs.

 

Overall PT tanks have the highest dtps of all tanks without counting cooldowns, the worst selection of defensive cooldowns and they are also the only tank completely lacking a self cleanse. They surely aren't the second choice for nightmare raiding, they're the worst. That's not to say you can't make PT tanking work in nightmares, it's just going to take very good cooldown management and some extra work from5 your healers.

Finally, someone who uses logic.

Finally, someone who uses logic.

it's logic because it supports your opinion?

Every Nightmare Tank i know uses sin/shadow or pt/vg depending which boss you fight.

Every once in a while some of them wants the "fancy" TimeRun Title on his/her Jugg/Guardian. So PT is "the last" choice...

and yes. pt tanks do the most dps even after nerf.

it's logic because it supports your opinion?

 

Every Nightmare Tank i know uses sin/shadow or pt/vg depending which boss you fight.

Every once in a while some of them wants the "fancy" TimeRun Title on his/her Jugg/Guardian. So PT is "the last" choice...

and yes. pt tanks do the most dps even after nerf.

Curious what fantasy land you live in? I am a VG tank main, and have cleared all content as one, however I play the other tanks as well and VG is by far the least desired tank. It has some fights where it's very nice but the other two tanks just do most things better/bring more to the table.

If you want a fight by fight breakdown of my personal choice of tank for each boss I can do that but more often then not VG finishes last, I am one of like 3 VG tanks in my guild and only one other plays it as their main tank class. The rest are all shadows or guardians

We need our range back, period. It is absolutely ridiculous that they made blaster classes the same range as saber users (or less in some cases). Vanguard/powertech and operative/scoundrel should be fighting at mid range (15-20m), not melee range

Having come back to play from 2013, I see that things have really changed for the "tank" BH/Trooper. I picked up playing a Tactics Trooper, mostly for the story line but because I enjoy the military aspect of it and the Operative, and it is extremely confusing playing a medium ranged class with melee abilities. I get that you can't have DPS abilities be backups for when a target gets close. But, it is extremely confusing as to why I'd want to smack something with my rifle butt or slash it with a knife when I should have range. Its like trying to wrap my head around the Dirty Fighting Scoundrel having a pistol in his hand and a shotgun on his waste yet deciding that it is better to pistol whip someone and punch them in the face.

This is just one of those games where you throw everything logical out of the window. That doesn't make it fun - seriously, why is Gut not a combined StockStrike with a bleed effect?

seriously, why is Gut not a combined StockStrike with a bleed effect?

That's not a bad suggestion, especially if the devs want to trim down on unnecessary abilities. This change wouldn't hurt the class too much -- might make energy management when swapping targets more difficult.

That's not a bad suggestion, especially if the devs want to trim down on unnecessary abilities. This change wouldn't hurt the class too much -- might make energy management when swapping targets more difficult.

They could use the same animation from the Operative's Lacerate->Collateral Damage, which is a knife slash followed by a rifle butt strike. the Vangard is seriously one of the most key bound bloated classes that I've ever played - it is ridiculous.

The rotation itself isn't too bloated. If Tactics/AP were any less, we'd all die of boredom. The rotation is basically 4 buttons with a couple exceptions: "special power button" aka cell burst, AOE buttons, and the initial DoT application. The rest of the abilities are normal SWTOR class abilities -- gap closer, root breaker, interrupt, taunt, DCD, etc.

The devs could probably combine Gut with Stockstrike, and get rid of one of the AoE's. Probably Explosive Surge, but the CD on Flakshell would need to be reduced. And Artillery Blitz would need to cost less.