Oh. It wasn't on his Wookiee page - my bad.

No problem.

1. Maul's age can't be compared with Kenobi's as the former is Sith and the latter is Jedi. Sith have a grossly superior learning curve by the very nature of the dark side combined with intensive and unshackled training. Whereas Jedi encouraged a slow learning curve, the fact that Kenobi was still a Padawan at the age of 23 shows this. And it is those titles, not age, that determine his skill. So yes the mere Padawan argument is applicable, noting that Kenobi has had arguably less experience in lightsaber combat than Maul. Much less. And as you point out, Maul is exceptionally skilled, a better duelist than Qui-Gon, and an even better duelist than Kenobi. Yet Kenobi managed to force him on the back foot and slice his lightsaber in half, he may have lost, but that doesn't make the display any less impressive.

2. Maul wanted to kill Kenobi for chopping him in half 10 years ago, he was hell bent on revenge. And Savage? Well he's just hell bent 24/7. Regardless of whether they thought they could win, they would have given the fight their all. The very nature of their lightsaber styles practically demands this. Anyway, what is important is how Kenobi used Ataru to hold them off despite being in a confined space, and against two opponents. And as Yoda says, only a master of Ataru can hope to prevail against multiple assailants. Kenobi did not die. He held them off and he held them off hard.

3. On that note, the style he used clearly was Ataru. Not only does Kenobi perform su ma rotations, but he also performs physical attacks and remains on the constant offensive. All major characterics of the style that Kenobi continued to use along side Soresu. Understand that mastering Soresu along is not a viable or advisable tactic, as it leaves you unable to attack. It was certainly not Niman, the moderation form with relaxed bladework. Did that look at all moderated or relaxed to you?

4. Kas'im indeed shows an analytically mind, but as I explained before no more than any other accomplished duelist. And I believe Kenobi has show superior understanding of the forms through hybridizing elements of other forms into his own style, eliminating the primary weaknesses of Ataru and unlocking the true potential of Soresu. Evident through his ridiculous ability to deflect blaster bolts and disrupt the flow of Grievous' incredibly complex and baffling lightsaber sequence, severing his arms as a result, through pure defense. Noting that Windu considered Kenobi the only one capable of defeating Grievous, likely because of this.

P.S. Vader was not defeated by Maul, he was defeated by a doppelgänger. However I would certainly place Maul above Kas'im and is a more logical contender for #10.

1. Maul's age can't be compared with Kenobi's as the former is Sith and the latter is Jedi. Sith have a grossly superior learning curve by the very nature of the dark side combined with intensive and unshackled training. Whereas Jedi encouraged a slow learning curve, the fact that Kenobi was still a Padawan at the age of 23 shows this. And it is those titles, not age, that determine his skill. So yes the mere Padawan argument is applicable, noting that Kenobi has had arguably less experience in lightsaber combat than Maul. Much less. And as you point out, Maul is exceptionally skilled, a better duelist than Qui-Gon, and an even better duelist than Kenobi. Yet Kenobi managed to force him on the back foot and slice his lightsaber in half, he may have lost, but that doesn't make the display any less impressive.

 

2. Maul wanted to kill Kenobi for chopping him in half 10 years ago, he was hell bent on revenge. And Savage? Well he's just hell bent 24/7. Regardless of whether they thought they could win, they would have given the fight their all. The very nature of their lightsaber styles practically demands this. Anyway, what is important is how Kenobi used Ataru to hold them off despite being in a confined space, and against two opponents. And as Yoda says, only a master of Ataru can hope to prevail against multiple assailants. Kenobi did not die. He held them off and he held them off hard.

 

3. On that note, the style he used clearly was Ataru. Not only does Kenobi perform su ma rotations, but he also performs physical attacks and remains on the constant offensive. All major characterics of the style that Kenobi continued to use along side Soresu. Understand that mastering Soresu along is not a viable or advisable tactic, as it leaves you unable to attack. It was certainly not Niman, the moderation form with relaxed bladework. Did that look at all moderated or relaxed to you?

 

4. Kas'im indeed shows an analytically mind, but as I explained before no more than any other accomplished duelist. And I believe Kenobi has show superior understanding of the forms through hybridizing elements of other forms into his own style, eliminating the primary weaknesses of Ataru and unlocking the true potential of Soresu. Evident through his ridiculous ability to deflect blaster bolts and disrupt the flow of Grievous' incredibly complex and baffling lightsaber sequence, severing his arms as a result, through pure defense. Noting that Windu considered Kenobi the only one capable of defeating Grievous, likely because of this.

 

P.S. Vader was not defeated by Maul, he was defeated by a doppelgänger. However I would certainly place Maul above Kas'im and is a more logical contender for #10.

I disagree with some of what you said - Maul was trained in secret and you could see that a lot of his practice was against droids - the only live sparring partner he would have had was Sidious. he would not have had the variety of live force using opponents to practice with as Kenobi nor the real world experience as he would have had to remain in the Shadows a lot of the time - the Sith had to wait to play their hand and avoid detection and Sidious would have to had to spend a lot of time as Palpatine with his career commitments .

Also with this hybridisation thing then maybe Sidious should be higher as not only is he a Master of All 7 styles but he can switch between them effortlessly (so being able to bring to bear that knowledge of the forms more easily and widely than other masters) he is also Ambidextrous which gives another subtle advantage (no weaker hand)

Also the learning curve thing - well Qui Gon was comparing Maul to himself - Qui Gon was one of the best Duelists in the Order and had the experience of a full career (enough time to reach a peak in skill) yet Maul was Still more skilled as a young apprentice - This is Skill we are talking about - not power in the force (so actual technique practiced and honed) I haven't seen this learning curve thing where Sith Apprentices are more skilled than Jedi Masters - just that they may get a raw power boost from the Darkside - which probably makes them more powerful in force abilities and strength but actually a bit less skilled and focused because of the lack of experience in controlling this rage/power

I think Maul deserves more credit here because still not Many Sith Apprentices would be that skilled at that point in their career.

The Moderation in Niman is a Balance thing - Niman is a versatile style and can be used more aggressively (a la Exar Kun) if A person so chooses to use it - it has elements of the other styles before it - including Ataru: It is underrated in this period of time because not many chose to explore it in depth

And still it took a basic mistake from Savage to give Obi Wan that opening. He couldn't force it in toe to toe even with his frantic Bladework. If it was Ataru (we can agree to disagree) then that would have taken a lot Out of Obi Wan - I believe Maul's Juyo would have taken him if the fight went on to it's conclusion (you could even see that Maul was not in his full flow at that point) - even in the first 2v1 fight Maul still had more left despite having to fight both of them and Obi wan being bolstered by the killing of Qui Gon

That is my issue with Obi Wan - it most often always seems to be a Glaring mistake that is needed to give him the opening, whereas fighters such as Maul/Dooku/Windu/Vader can actually overcome (bypass/counter) defences mid fight. Sure patience can win fights but that is a tactical rather than technical (bladework) thing.

PS. The doppelganger even had Mauls Memories and was not said to be modified in any way so that would pretty much be a Vader/Maul fight there... if anything doppelgangers tend not be quite as good as the original.

I would be willing to compromise for Maul as number 10 - he has shown me more that he can overcome whatever is put directly against him head on rather than needing people to get careless/unfocussed and make Mistakes

I disagree with some of what you said - Maul was trained in secret and you could see that a lot of his practice was against droids - the only live sparring partner he would have had was Sidious. he would not have had the variety of live force using opponents to practice with as Kenobi nor the real world experience as he would have had to remain in the Shadows a lot of the time - the Sith had to wait to play their hand and avoid detection and Sidious would have to had to spend a lot of time as Palpatine with his career commitments .

 

Also with this hybridisation thing then maybe Sidious should be higher as not only is he a Master of All 7 styles but he can switch between them effortlessly (so being able to bring to bear that knowledge of the forms more easily and widely than other masters) he is also Ambidextrous which gives another subtle advantage (no weaker hand)

 

Also the learning curve thing - well Qui Gon was comparing Maul to himself - Qui Gon was one of the best Duelists in the Order and had the experience of a full career (enough time to reach a peak in skill) yet Maul was Still more skilled as a young apprentice - This is Skill we are talking about - not power in the force (so actual technique practiced and honed) I haven't seen this learning curve thing where Sith Apprentices are more skilled than Jedi Masters - just that they may get a raw power boost from the Darkside - which probably makes them more powerful in force abilities and strength but actually a bit less skilled and focused because of the lack of experience in controlling this rage/power

I think Maul deserves more credit here because still not Many Sith Apprentices would be that skilled at that point in their career.

 

The Moderation in Niman is a Balance thing - Niman is a versatile style and can be used more aggressively (a la Exar Kun) if A person so chooses to use it - it has elements of the other styles before it - including Ataru: It is underrated in this period of time because not many chose to explore it in depth

And still it took a basic mistake from Savage to give Obi Wan that opening. He couldn't force it in toe to toe even with his frantic Bladework. If it was Ataru (we can agree to disagree) then that would have taken a lot Out of Obi Wan - I believe Maul's Juyo would have taken him if the fight went on to it's conclusion (you could even see that Maul was not in his full flow at that point) - even in the first 2v1 fight Maul still had more left despite having to fight both of them and Obi wan being bolstered by the killing of Qui Gon

 

That is my issue with Obi Wan - it most often always seems to be a Glaring mistake that is needed to give him the opening, whereas fighters such as Maul/Dooku/Windu/Vader can actually overcome (bypass/counter) defences mid fight. Sure patience can win fights but that is a tactical rather than technical (bladework) thing.

 

PS. The doppelganger even had Mauls Memories and was not said to be modified in any way so that would pretty much be a Vader/Maul fight there... if anything doppelgangers tend not be quite as good as the original.

 

I would be willing to compromise for Maul as number 10 - he has shown me more that he can overcome whatever is put directly against him head on rather than needing people to get careless/unfocussed and make Mistakes

Concerning Sidious, I wouldn't place him higher than Caedus given that Caedus stood toe-to-toe with GM Luke Skywalker in a lightsaber duel while Sidious was defeated by Luke only a few years are the events of ROTJ.

And finally, and I cannot stress this enough. Kenobi was wielding Ataru, not Niman.

If the fight had continued, its hard to say. If Maul did not have the benefit of his mechanical legs I would give it to Kenobi. If Kenobi was capable of outmaneuvering Maul on Naboo and slicing his blade in half, as a Padawan, think what he can do as a master with 10 years of experience and 3 years of conflict. The fact that he managed to hold of both Maul and Savage implies he could do well against Maul alone. Also noting that Kenobi would begin to incoporate elements of Soresu into his style to remain efficient and avoid growing tired. And I'd also point out that the only reason Maul did not get into his flow was because he was overwhelmed by Kenobi's Ataru, forcing him back each time.

The main reason I would place Kenobi above Maul is because of this. Take a close look at this duel. Excluding the very end they are practically on par, neither duelist is gaining and advantage, they are matching each other blow for blow. Despite the fact that Kenobi is in the same confined space that killed his master. Now I say exclude the ending because in the end Maul won through a combination of superior strength and Force ability. Not lightsaber ability. In that field they seemed nigh equal. Now take into account the fact that after the duel, Kenobi took the next 10 years to become a master swordsmen, and his lightsaber skills increased even further during the Clone Wars. I don't think anyone can disagree that if that had been Master Kenobi, he would have fought better, and given that they were practically equal, that would make Kenobi the better duelist.

And concerning Maul's doppelgänger, if the clone Marek is any indication, Maul would have in fact been more powerful than his predecessor. Especially if created through dark alchemy. There is also the fact that Maul only gained the advantage through exploiting the weaknesses of Vader's armour, however physical capabilities do not come under the umbrella of lightsaber ability. And while they were equally matched for a time in combat, it was Vader who managed to sever his blade in half. And in reality the distance between the skill of the duelists in spots #7 to #10 is minmal.

And finally, and I cannot stress this enough. Kenobi was wielding Ataru, not Niman. Here is a video of the battle. The very fact that Kenobi was using pure attack with no defensive manueveres immediately rules out Niman as a possibilty which as a moderation form. Again where is the moderation here? Where is the equal balance between offense and defensive. There isn't any. His offense is his defense. You are entitiled to your opinion, but this is pretty much fact, there is no evidence to suggest - other than the fact that Niman and Jar'Kai go hand in hand - that he is wielding Niman. I'd also point out that Kenobi's apprentice, Anakin, was also skilled in Jar'Kai Ataru - it is not rare.

Beni, Your link in Paragraph 3 seems to be broken.

Beni, Your link in Paragraph 3 seems to be broken.

Oh and your opinion on this matter would be most welcome.

Hey - if it says so then it is an official Canon Source (unless it is superceded elsewhere)

Although If I remember rightly that Same book says that Sidious' face was actually disfigured by the Lightning (doesn't mention Darkside Corruption or an Alchemical mask disguise at all)

 

Now whether Obi Wan's Ataru is better than Kas'im's - I would doubt it seeing as he did mostly abandon it in favour of Soresu and will probably not use it very often as it is detrimental to his overall cautious tactical mindset. (like you could see him use it briefly against Dooku to try and throw him off his game - he never intended to properly fight with it)

Also the fact that Kas'im specialised in the very difficult rare twin-bladed form of Ataru (actually believed to be a flawed and impossible style to complete) - the vast majority of Jar Kai is based in Niman

Also Jar'Kai is not exclusive or particular to Niman, and Ataru was in fact known to incorporate elements of dual-wielding into its training regime. In Kas'im's era what you suggest may have been the case. But no in other eras:

Vandar Tokare, Kavar, Ashoka Tano, Anakin Skywalker, Kenobi, Starkiller and probably Mariss Brood and Serra Keto used a Jar'Kai variant Ataru.

Sora Bulq used Jar'Kai in tandem with Vaapad. Fisto used Jar'Kai in tandem with Shii-Cho. And Ventress and Vosa used Jar'Kai in tandem with Makashi.

Jar'Kai is a universal form, and while specific to Niman. It is also specific and widely used in tandem with Ataru.

I do have replies - I had one typed out ( I really do have it saved on notepad) - but I realise that you and I can go on forever.

We can look at the same things but differ in opinions - not a dig (but just indicating that we can go round in circles with this is the nature of our personalities)

This is your list and we have to move on

Give Obi Wan spot 10 and I can go back into retirement - all this typing takes up too much time and I am not that quick a typist

I do have replies - I had one typed out ( I really do have it saved on notepad) - but I realise that you and I can go on forever.

 

We can look at the same things but differ in opinions - not a dig (but just indicating that we can go round in circles with this is the nature of our personalities)

 

This is your list and we have to move on

 

Give Obi Wan spot 10 and I can go back into retirement - all this typing takes up too much time and I am not that quick a typist

I kid, I kid. Unlike some people on these forums I realise that some debates can go on forever, and respect people's decision to withdraw. I'm glad we have this discussion, because it brought new arguments to the fore. But ultimately this is a community thread, and its not my call. So I'll leave the debate open for now and see if we can get some consensus on this issue.

Any more opinions surrounding Maul, Kenobi and Kas'im?

Any more opinions surrounding Maul, Kenobi and Kas'im?

Kenobi, obviously.

No surrender!

 

I kid, I kid. Unlike some people on these forums I realise that some debates can go on forever, and respect people's decision to withdraw. I'm glad we have this discussion, because it brought new arguments to the fore. But ultimately this is a community thread, and its not my call. So I'll leave the debate open for now and see if we can get some consensus on this issue.

 

Any more opinions surrounding Maul, Kenobi and Kas'im?

Give 10 to Obi Wan - There are some above that I possibly disagree with also - but I am NOT going to start -

Promise

Maul and Obi Wan are pretty Close (even though I edge it for Maul - I wouldn't complain too much if Obi Wan gets it)

Kas'im is hard to directly compare as there are no common foes that straddled these eras - What Kas'im achieved in Lightsaber mastery was pretty rare in any era and the fact that he was unbeaten in Saber Combat is impressive - but the quality of his foes aside from Bane is somewhat of an unknown and how he would fare against the PT fighters is again an unknown and it will be heavily based on a matter of opinion either way...

Well lets place Kenobi as #10 then.

The list is complete and is now open for changes, if you feel any of the positions should be disputed, now's the time.

And as a side note, I was hoping to be debating the likes of Maul, Fisto, Koon, Malgus etc. but it seems they never made the cut. Are Jedi and Sith follow ups a possibility? What are our thoughts?

Well lets place Kenobi as #10 then.

 

The list is complete and is now open for changes, if you feel any of the positions should be disputed, now's the time.

 

And as a side note, I was hoping to be debating the likes of Maul, Fisto, Koon, Malgus etc. but it seems they never made the cut. Are Jedi and Sith follow ups a possibility? What are our thoughts?

I'd be open to it, I mean, Fisto is a possible contender with Kenobi anyway, if you compare their respective fights against Grevious etc

Beni I'm still thinking Vader should be placed above Kun.

Also...yeah Dooku should be above Kun too. Wow I can't believe that even he is below Kun..

Thank god Kun is on this list. Albeit number 7... But hey, I'm not complaining

Why wouldn't he be on the list?

Beni I'm still thinking Vader should be placed above Kun.

 

Also...yeah Dooku should be above Kun too. Wow I can't believe that even he is below Kun..

I'd like to think that Dooku should go higher, and I have a massive argument for why he's such a baller duelist, but I think he's good where he is.

But I am curious to see why you think Vader should be placed above Kun. Maybe we'll revisit this list eventually.

Dooku and Vader above Kun? I think we might be forgetting Kun's skills here.

Anyway the sooner the Force Users revisions are finished, the sooner we can revise this one.

Heck I might start up a separate thread for this, so we can have them both ongoing. I'll get on that soon.

Dooku and Vader above Kun? I think we might be forgetting Kun's skills here.

 

Anyway the sooner the Force Users revisions are finished, the sooner we can revise this one.

 

Heck I might start up a separate thread for this, so we can have them both ongoing. I'll get on that soon.

Trust me, I will never ever argue Dooku above Kun. Dooku's good, certainly better than most give him credit for, but Kun is just a level above.

Trust me, I will never ever argue Dooku above Kun. Dooku's good, certainly better than most give him credit for, but Kun is just a level above.

.....Aurbere....no....Dooku is above Kun, so is Vader and i'll get into it when I get all my info sorted.

.....Aurbere....no....Dooku is above Kun, so is Vader and i'll get into it when I get all my info sorted.

As you do so, take into account Kun mastered Niman to just a high level as Dooku, and on top of that mastered Juyo and Ataru. Noting of course that his style was revolutionary and totally unique and one might go as far to argue that he himself invented Juyo or at least inspired it. I'm very interested to see your arguments for Dooku's superiority over this.

Noted, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Kun is superior to both Dooku/Vader.

Although my sub is gonna run out soon so...we shall see.

.....Aurbere....no....Dooku is above Kun, so is Vader and i'll get into it when I get all my info sorted.

Wolf, I fully believe that Dooku doesn't get the credit that he so rightly deserves, but I do not believe that he is superior to Kun. I could certainly say that Dooku is more than capable of taking Kun on in a pure lightsaber duel, but he is not a superior lightsaber master.