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Updated Tanking Spreadsheet (Universal)


FillionFan

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For the real min/maxers, here's an updated version of the original LagunaD sheet with Effective Health. It's one of few ways to compare tank classes with some actual uniformity. I streamlined it for ease of use and updated class stats for 1.4. I think I have all the stats correct for PT/Sin tanks. If anyone can confirm them, that'd be awesome. Obviously, feel free to report any other issues as well.

 

The sheet has the standard LagunaD Squish, SigmaSquish and Spikiness metrics, as well as Effective Health calculation to compare endurance stacking somewhat. I also added a roll-by-roll calculation of Total Mitigation (a restatement of Squishiness really).

 

File > Copy to make your own if you find it useful.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqqlFggS3U48dFRqTW5YM0tLYy0ycnhteGt0LXhXU0E

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The problem with LagunaD's spreadsheet (and others like it) is two fold. First, they fail to take into account multiple mitigation types, so they give you a picture of survivability that is somewhat divorced from the actual content. More importantly, they fail to take into account alternative survivability mechanics such as self-heals. This is particularly onerous in TOR, since it dramatically inflates the apparent survivability of Vanguards/PowerTechs and dramatically deflates apparent survivability of Shadows/Assassins.

 

If all you want to do is optimize the balance of your defensive stats, then LagunaD's spreadsheet is pretty much the best thing out there. It's good to see it updated. :-) However, if you want to maximize your *survivability*, considering all forms of mitigation and all damage types, then spreadsheets like this can actually result in sub-optimal itemization for certain classes (most notably shadows/assassins).

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While I understand your point, I think you're seriously overestimating its significance. I agree that it does not account for all mitigation. It does not account for differences in elemental/internal resistances (3-4% variances) which are not significant enough to be considered for most fights (Jarg is a good exception). It also does not account for self heals or Sonic Barrier. Sonic Barrier = 75-100 HPS (depending on normal/hybrid spec) which picks up maybe 8% of damage taken during normal-high damage boss phases.

 

The best numbers I can find for assassins points to less than 200 HPS including everything (overcharg saber etc). So call it 150-180 depending on endurance stacking. Even if you assume that assassins mitigate roughly equal damage (compared to a hybrid jugg I have my doubts), that's about 13% of their damage taken. I mitigate ~75% of ranged/melee damage (from the spreadsheet and logs).

 

As a matter of total mitigation that takes me to ~77% and you to ~78% and I'm not factoring in Endure Pain which is up to 90 HPS but probably more like 40 since it's used more as an emergency mini-CD. If you wanted to compare to a Powertech, obviously it's more of an issue, but if they pop Kolto Overload fairly regularly they're pushing 50-70 HPS.

 

So the point is that Assassin magical self heals are just not all that special. The differences between classes are not what you seem to think. This makes the spreadsheet a highly valid method of comparing tanks even across classes.

Edited by FillionFan
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While I understand your point, I think you're seriously overestimating its significance. I agree that it does not account for all mitigation. It does not account for differences in elemental/internal resistances (3-4% variances) which are not significant enough to be considered for most fights (Jarg is a good exception). It also does not account for self heals or Sonic Barrier. Sonic Barrier = 75-100 HPS (depending on normal/hybrid spec) which picks up maybe 8% of damage taken during normal-high damage boss phases.

 

Sonic/Blade Barrier is responsible for 95 HPS in Defense/Immortal spec, and a full 142 HPS in hybrid spec.

 

As for internal/elemental damage, consider the following: if I set my internal/elemental resistance to 9% (the same as a Vanguard/PowerTech), my survivability drops by 1.81% on current content. That doesn't sound like a lot, but it actually turns out to be equivalent to almost 91 points of defense rating! (source) Again, not something you want to just ignore. 28.2% of damage in current content bypasses defensive stats. LagunaD's spreadsheet says nothing about that damage, and thus represents a very incomplete picture of survivability in general.

 

The best numbers I can find for assassins points to less than 200 HPS including everything (overcharg saber etc). So call it 150-180 depending on endurance stacking. Even if you assume that assassins mitigate roughly equal damage (compared to a hybrid jugg I have my doubts), that's about 13% of their damage taken. I mitigate ~75% of ranged/melee damage (from the spreadsheet and logs).

 

You can't count Overcharge Saber / Battle Readiness as part of the steady-state self-heal. It's a cooldown, and therefore falls under a different class of theory-crafting. If we filter down to just Telekinetic Throw / Force Lightning and Combat Technique / Dark Charge, we arrive at a base self-heal value of 135 HPS, or 155 HPS with proc heal relic (which is what I use on my shadow).

 

This is not an insignificant component of my survivability. In fact, if I remove my self-heal entirely, my survivability drops by 11.4% ! That's huge. Not something you can just ignore. And given that endurance actually has a very significant effect on the value of the self-heal (and thus survivability), it is actively wrong for shadows/assassins to make gearing decisions based solely on the three defensive stats weighted against armor.

 

As a matter of total mitigation that takes me to ~77% and you to ~78% and I'm not factoring in Endure Pain which is up to 90 HPS but probably more like 40 since it's used more as an emergency mini-CD. If you wanted to compare to a Powertech, obviously it's more of an issue, but if they pop Kolto Overload fairly regularly they're pushing 50-70 HPS.

 

You cannot naively count cooldowns into steady-state mitigation, since they get popped in response to burst phases, not as an active part of the rotation. However, even if you did count Kolto Overload, you're only talking about a *very* small self-heal. 15% of max HP over 10 seconds, once every 3 minutes. That's just 21.6 HPS if it is used on cooldown. Quite paltry.

 

So the point is that Assassin magical self heals are just not all that special. The differences between classes are not what you seem to think. This makes the spreadsheet a highly valid method of comparing tanks even across classes.

 

I use the following spreadsheet: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1679797/SWTOR/Defensive%20Stats.numbers When restricted to current content, it shows all three tanks balanced to within ~1% (when equally geared), it predicts requisite HPS to within <5% (judged by combat logs), and it considers all four attack/damage combinations. I would consider its results to be much more comprehensive and accurate than LagunaD's for the purposes of comparing tanks head-to-head. If all you want is to determine the relative value of *just* your defensive stats, then LagunaD's spreadsheet is excellent.

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Sonic barrier is max of around 110 hps in hybrid (1000/9s). You're forgetting also that 10% of your internal resistance comes from the Inquis/Consular buff which everyone would have in nearly any pve content. I would also include mitigation stats in the calculation of survivability rather than simply taking your hps divided by damage taken. Either way the point isn't that your hps are insignificant mitigation, it's that the differences between the hps across the tanks classes are relatively insignificant, especially for hybrid juggs vs assassins.

 

The percent of mitigation (and therefore survivability) of hps varies depending on how much damage you are taking as well whereas mitigation stats are relatively constant percentages except when force/tech attacks increase dramatically which is typically rare. So your hps might be slightly better on the Dread Council with the DoTs but that 91 points of defense would be better on Operator or Terror as you are taking nearly twice as much damage and hps don't scale with damage unlike pure mitigation.

 

Also I can absolutely count mini CDs as active mitigation if they're the sort of thing that is used consistently more than once per fight. Only true emergency CDs should not be counted.

 

All of this is not to say that this spreadsheet is a perfect comparison of tanks but it's a damn fine tool to use as long as you keep in mind these class mechanics. To pretend that it's useless for comparing is truly naive.

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Sonic barrier is max of around 110 hps in hybrid (1000/9s). You're forgetting also that 10% of your internal resistance comes from the Inquis/Consular buff which everyone would have in nearly any pve content. I would also include mitigation stats in the calculation of survivability rather than simply taking your hps divided by damage taken. Either way the point isn't that your hps are insignificant mitigation, it's that the differences between the hps across the tanks classes are relatively insignificant, especially for hybrid juggs vs assassins.

 

The value of Sonic/Blade Barrier is computed as the following function:

 

((7085 * 0.05) + (power * 0.17 + force-power * 0.17 + strength * 1.11 * 0.14) * 1.05) * 1.2

 

For a pure defense/immortal guardian/juggernaut in augmented Campaign gear, that gives me a value of 1142.76. That's 95.2304 HPS. If I drop the cooldown to 9 seconds, the HPS goes up to 126.9738.

 

That's a pretty wide gap from the 160 HPS that a shadow/assassin can reach, and the 0 HPS that a vanguard/powertech will achieve.

 

Oh, and I'm not forgetting that 10% of resistance is from the Consular/Inquisitor buff. Something is apparently weird with how Ask Mr Robot computes resistance, since it claimed to be including all the buffs when apparently it wasn't. I suspect the actual resistance for a vanguard/powertech is 19%, but I need to verify.

 

The percent of mitigation (and therefore survivability) of hps varies depending on how much damage you are taking as well whereas mitigation stats are relatively constant percentages except when force/tech attacks increase dramatically which is typically rare. So your hps might be slightly better on the Dread Council with the DoTs but that 91 points of defense would be better on Operator or Terror as you are taking nearly twice as much damage and hps don't scale with damage unlike pure mitigation.

 

Yes, I consider the mean survivability contribution from HPS. On current content, all bosses hit for nearly the same amount (to within 10%), so the mean is actually going to be fairly accurate. I have extremely precise data on pre-mitigation DPS for all bosses in the game on their hardest modes, so I am able to make such calculations.

 

Also I can absolutely count mini CDs as active mitigation if they're the sort of thing that is used consistently more than once per fight. Only true emergency CDs should not be counted.

 

If they're being used in a steady-state, predictable rotation, then yes (e.g. Dark/Kinetic Ward). If they're not being used in rotation, then no, you cannot count them. If it's not in rotation, then it is a situational ability used in response to something else that happened in the fight. You can't consider situationals in a smoothed statistical model.

 

All of this is not to say that this spreadsheet is a perfect comparison of tanks but it's a damn fine tool to use as long as you keep in mind these class mechanics. To pretend that it's useless for comparing is truly naive.

 

It's fine for comparing tanks if you want a severely incomplete picture of relative tank survivability.

 

The reason I get so up-in-arms over things like this is it is precisely this sort of spreadsheet that led to the (still widely-held) belief that vanguards/powertechs are the only tanks worth having, and shadows/assassins are severely under-powered. People have a tendency to underestimate the value of a tank's self-heal (case in point: your earlier post). Spreadsheets like this encourage such underestimation since they fail to take the self-heal into account at all.

 

Comparing tanks by using this spreadsheet is simply ignoring major components of steady-state tank survivability. It would be like comparing the DPS of a Maurader to that of an Arsenal Mercenary without counting the damage from Unload. It's silly, and it doesn't really give you an informed answer.

 

This spreadsheet is very good for weighing defensive stats and optimizing them against each-other. No question about that. It's just an extremely poor tool for performing tank balance comparisons.

Edited by KeyboardNinja
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Keyboardninja,

 

Sounds like you have a lot of info around tanking. I have been missing a good detailed BiS gearing info. Do you have a link you can post to were you found some of your info or where there is good discution on end game gearing.

 

Also, do you know a better sheet that can be used to help optimis gearing.

 

Thank for the info and the sonic barrior calc, have been looking for that from day one but have given up in the past month when EC was on farm for 3 months...

 

Zman

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I think he covered that in the next to last sentence if you read the post. Also take the sonic barrier calculation as you will, but I've never seen it break 1k in logs.

 

If you have a more authoritative calculation for Sonic/Blade Barrier absorption, I'm all ears. Mine comes straight from the Effect Details paired with the healing formulae.

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OK, so I filled this out...

I am a bit surprised by what it wants me to do...

I left the game about 5 months ago, recently came back. My tank suit was fairly inline at the time I left, but I thought I had put too much focus on HP over defense.Half of my augments are just AIM/Endurance.

 

The Min/Maxer inside me is never happy, I had always assumed I should remove the Endurance augments, and pick pure defensive stat augments. My line of thinking is It does not matter how big my health pool is in long boss fights, I need to make the overall amount of healing per second that I need lower. A larger health pool will never help that.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ak9El31xtBV_dE4yOW0zVXppVVZ3d1lxVjhsUVdoeHc

 

http://i.imgur.com/o3UO2.jpg

 

Yet this tells me I need 100 more endurance and 100 less defense chance?!?! Sorry, I have a hard time accepting this would help me, whats your thoughts?

 

I am in full campaign now, working on the new level of gear. We cleared the newer raid, and killed Toth/Zorn on Nightmare mode tonight. But Its a struggle, and I feel like I can optimize my tank suit quite a bit more.

 

I have like ~200 Black hole comms, Im saving up for the implant I guess... but some people tell me new higher endurance armoring are now available for purchase. So I may hold off on spending those until I get a few new pieces of armor, and then fill in the armoring in the drops that I do not get soon.

Edited by MuscarKrone
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The bottom blue cell is where you can add or subtract in increments and see what the effect on your stats will be before you actually go ahead and re-mod/re-augment. The base template comes with pre set values down there, you should clear each of those cells.

 

Its not saying you need to drop 100 defence, its just the number that's already in the template, which you should clear to 0 if you want to do some adjustments of your own.

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My current setup is

 

Armor : 6251

End: 2262

HP: 254xx (Spreadsheet shows it at 26522 for some reason)

DEf: 411 (27.93%)

Shield: 686 (68.97%)

Absorb : 702 (63.66%)

 

Armor Equiv: 1::1.79062::1.6023::1.51802

 

I use 2 WH relics +113 def and +113 shield.

 

What I see is armor equiv means I need a bit more def and a bit less absorb

+36 def -36 absorb(2 augs) gives me

 

Def: 28.71%

Shield: 68.97%

Absorb: 62.79%

 

Armor Equiv: 1::1.7317::1.5650::1.6297

 

modified damage taken = - 0.03%

 

At this point it tells me that addind def is more beneficial but it needs to come out of shield, at which time abosrb effectiveness takes a hit. adn then it becomes too much for me to remove either relic and replace with healing proc.

 

Also,

 

Squishiness 0.248556921

SigmaSquish 0.243048069

Spikey-ness 1.701336485

 

Could you explain these numbers a bit more, I dont know what exactly they mean.

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If you have a more authoritative calculation for Sonic/Blade Barrier absorption, I'm all ears.

I do not. I'm a jugg and I wish that calculation were accurate. Again, all I can say is the logs do not support this. Always less than 1k. I don't need the right answer to tell you yours is wrong.

 

Yet this tells me I need 100 more endurance and 100 less defense chance?!?! Sorry, I have a hard time accepting this would help me, whats your thoughts?

Marb is right. I left the stats in there a demonstration of how the gear change works. The sheet does not make suggestions. It only calculates the current value of the stat in relation to each and their own diminishing returns curve.

 

At this point it tells me that addind def is more beneficial but it needs to come out of shield, at which time abosrb effectiveness takes a hit. adn then it becomes too much for me to remove either relic and replace with healing proc.

The stat weights are on a constantly sliding scale such that changing one affects the values of the others. That's what makes it useful. If you want to use a relic that cannot be quantified in the stats, then I would switch it out as best you can and then rebalance your stats with switching augments/mods/enhancements.

 

Squishiness 0.248556921

SigmaSquish 0.243048069

Spikey-ness 1.701336485

 

Could you explain these numbers a bit more, I dont know what exactly they mean.

First for these numbers, smaller is always better. Second, I didn't make that part, but Squish is really the same as Total Mitigation which I did make specifically because I preferred it that way. Squish is the average % of the boss's total (ranged/melee) damage that you take after mitigation. Total Mitigation is the average percent of the damage that is stopped by your mitigation.

 

The others are more complicated... Sigma-squish is the typical consistency of how your health drops (steady vs. inconsistent). High defense and/or low armor both tend to make this go up whereas high shield/absorb and/or armor make this go down because you shield more attacks than you dodge and armor (for the purposes of this) catches everything so the damage level you take is more consistent. Healers prefer slow, predictable levels of health loss.

 

Spikey-ness is really a measure of armor so there's really no control over it in SWTOR currently. It compares how much damage reduction is from dodge/deflect compared to armor.

 

Squish is an overall survivability view whereas Sigma-squish and Spikey-ness focus on situational survivability and how to negate RNG issues (i.e. keeping health loss steady rather than "spikey").

 

Assassin tanks will always be the highest in spikiness because you have less armor. However your self-healing, which is not accounted for here, negates a lot of this. For this reason do not compare your Spikey-ness or Sigma-squish to non-Assassin tanks. It is fairly safe to compare Squishiness/Total Mitigation across classes but self-healing (and jugg sonic barrier) does affect this as well (and cannot be accounted for).

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