Generally speaking in gaming melee is defined as "short range" Saying a PT is short range is no different than saying it is melee, you are just redefining terms to match your opinions

I give up. You win. 10m is melee. It's just not as melee as the other melee wich is more melee than the pt-melee wich is at another, but rather short range.

You guys define melee as 4 - 10m. Every other sane person defines melee as 4m. The real world defines melee as hand to hand combat. The real world defines ranged as projectiles

 

A guy with a rifle and bayonet attachment is NOT melee.

 

A knife wielding bandit who picks up the odd chair to throw is MELEE.

 

You guys have lumped PT's in the same boat as jugs and marauders and completely ignored the fact that any PT worth a grain of salt will kite the **** out of a jug / marauder. The simple fact that the PT can KITE with almost no loss of damage and a massive increase in survivability is what separates it as ranged from melee. Jug's and marauders can't kite anything. They MUST stand 4m away from their target or their survivability and damage goes into the toilet.

 

/END THREAD

Too bad for you this isn't the real world. This is swtor, and guess what, the developers defined the melee range of this game as 4m-10m. PT's are a MELEE class.

Too bad for you this isn't the real world. This is swtor, and guess what, the developers defined the melee range of this game as 4m-10m. PT's are a MELEE class.

I, in detail, explained this to them already informing them that I understand their opinion and approach to melee but the classes were developed, defined, and balanced based on archetypes and that powertech was put in the melee archetype. They refuse to listen or understand this.

At this point it has broken down to specific specs now in the same archetype being ranged or melee as the specific reference to how pyro is ranged and AP is arguably melee. This would suggest then that lethality operatives are ranged and concealment is melee, madness assassin is range and deception melee...

I mean are they saying that they are not effective within 10m range? At this point I think they are saying that which is wrong and tells me they are not approaching their class correctly as a warrior in pvp.

I admit that some specific melee class specs can work better in the 5-10m range then others as far as pure damage, but the same can be said about ranged classes in 30-35m range.

Ex: lightening sorc vs madness sorc or mercs. A lightening sorc can stay between 31-35 meters and be effective where as a madness sorc or merc cannot. Snipers too can stay at 31-35m with the same effect.

Should they be considered long range and then longer range??

This is silly, but I just can't get through to them! Lol

Why the hell is a warrior opening with leap? That's bad. The only time a warrior should open with leap is if they are veng or are attacking another melee. You use other gap closers so you can save the leap for after the target force speds away.

/shrug. A melee can get to me from 30 metres away right?, the only way he is getting to me from 30 metres is to leap to me or pull me 1 on 1. I will not let him walk to me, or get within 10 metres of my toon, I will snare I will root I will knock them back. He will try to close the gap, and he has little options at 30m (depending on class mechanics).

His only choice would be to leap if he's a jug or sent, but in one on one it will be on my terms, not his. A at least that's what a good sorc should try to do - that's the meta, the kite and gap closing game. This is easier now because you can pick up egress even as balance.

Precisely for the reason you mentioned. I want to be using force speed after leap if he isn't vengeance or a timed knockback and root.

This was a response to jacknader that every melee can get to me from 30m (no **** really?). The point jacknader is missing is that you can't really do much to a ranged 30m class from 30m away, I will kite a leaper.. But you can do a lot more in the 4-10m range - slow, mezz, obliterate, choke, push, interupt etc which is the point you are making. Which is what makes it effective melee range and why any ranged class would like to stay out of that range.

Would you like me to quote you again PLO

 

 

 

Every single melee class in this game has 30m abilities. They can reach you at ANY range. If they couldn't, melee would be hands down fodder for ranged classes and absolutely nobody would play them.

 

In terms of range: PT is to Sorc as Jug is to PT.

 

Therefore

 

Sorc = Long range

PT = Short range

Jug = Melee

 

Your inability to understand this is scarey.

 

This is the problem. You've lumped PT into the same bracket as a Jug. Do you face tank melee on your Sorc? No. Why on earth do you expect PT's to face tank jugs instead of exploiting their range advantage. It doesn't matter if the jug can "reach" the pt. He is expected to reach the PT at some point. The purpose of kiting the jug around is to lock him out of abilities which he would readily have access too if you just stood right next to him and face tanked. These abilities are primarily the jugs rage builders. This is why you cannot say 4 - 10m is melee. It isn't.

We will never agree. Simply put your criteria would mean the other classes and certain specs of what are universally recognised as melee are not actually melee. You've made the same point several times about kiting jugs, but a jug has more tools to close a 10m gap than it does at 30m which is why that is effective melee range, I've explained it to you. No point in debating it with you any further we will just have to agree to disagree and you can define a pt as a mid range class or whatever.

I, in detail, explained this to them already informing them that I understand their opinion and approach to melee but the classes were developed, defined, and balanced based on archetypes and that powertech was put in the melee archetype. They refuse to listen or understand this.

 

At this point it has broken down to specific specs now in the same archetype being ranged or melee as the specific reference to how pyro is ranged and AP is arguably melee. This would suggest then that lethality operatives are ranged and concealment is melee, madness assassin is range and deception melee...

 

I mean are they saying that they are not effective within 10m range? At this point I think they are saying that which is wrong and tells me they are not approaching their class correctly as a warrior in pvp.

 

I admit that some specific melee class specs can work better in the 5-10m range then others as far as pure damage, but the same can be said about ranged classes in 30-35m range.

 

Ex: lightening sorc vs madness sorc or mercs. A lightening sorc can stay between 31-35 meters and be effective where as a madness sorc or merc cannot. Snipers too can stay at 31-35m with the same effect.

Should they be considered long range and then longer range??

 

This is silly, but I just can't get through to them! Lol

Exactly it is just being pedantic. 6m or 5m is trivial. 20m is not, that is significant.

Guys why would you even debate about this ?

Instead let´s just say that a good PT will only come into the 4m range for things like shockstrike, interrupts and carbonize as must opponents as possible. Rest really does not matter.

I mean are they saying that they are not effective within 10m range? At this point I think they are saying that which is wrong and tells me they are not approaching their class correctly as a warrior in pvp.

Meh, I pretty much quit the debate because people have different perceptions about what melee is and I'm done arguing, since we've pretty much started repeating the things we've been saying in different words. But I'd like you to explain what you meant in the passage I quoted, I didn't really get it.

Honestly, I think this 10 plus pages worth of nothing is entirely down to certain people not correctly understanding their terms and definitions.

Melee is defined as hand to hand combat.

Ranged is defined as projectile.

The correct term you are looking for is close quarters combat. Close quarters combat includes all forms of combat, range or melee that take place within a restricted area. For instance, soldiers engaging each other in an urban setting using firearms, grenades, knives, etc.

Jugs/ Marauders are one of the few classes in this game that you can actually call Melee because their rage builders lock them into the 4m range. Powertechs on the other hand do the vast majority of their damage outside the effective range of the Jug / Marauder. For this reason you cannot classify the PT as melee but you CAN classify it as short ranged or a close quarters combat style.

@Raansa

I don't give a toss if you pull the Dev card. If a developer erroneously stated that 4 - 10m is melee range, I would tell him the exact same thing I have told you guys. You don't get to redefine terms and definitions at your wim. If you could then nobody would know what the hell anyone was talking about and we would end up with a lot of wasted time on our hands. Not unlike that which has occurred in this thread.

Honestly,

It's been said over and over again. It will not get through.

Just accept that for some Pyro is Melee ... just not quite as melee as the other melee but melee. And we are wrong and should bow to superior understanding of the difference between melee, melee and ranged.

Meh, I pretty much quit the debate because people have different perceptions about what melee is and I'm done arguing, since we've pretty much started repeating the things we've been saying in different words. But I'd like you to explain what you meant in the passage I quoted, I didn't really get it.

Completely forewarning you, you asked me to explain that passage and it is one hell of a read.

Reading through the thread and the debate about melee, which places only juggernauts and marauders as melee classes, the argument stems around most of a juggernauts and marauders damage being done in 4m range and not 10m range which is being used to define them as melee. The common theme of them all is that the effective range of a melee class is 4m range and a powertechs effective range is 10m, thus making them ranged and not melee.

That explains why I said, "I mean are they saying they are not effective within 10m range?" Then I further state that I currently am of the opinion, based on their arguments, that they are saying or suggesting that, which is wrong.

Why is it wrong? and Why are they not approaching their class correctly as a warrior in PVP?

Well because quite simply a Juggernaut and Marauder's effective range is 10m.

Allow me to explain and I will be lumping all together under the assumption of basic knowledge of specs:

Class problem pointed out in thread- Warriors need to maintain 4 m or less for resource generation and primary damage output

Warrior's 10m abilities, minus force scream and vicious throw which are high damage attacks, are focused around snaring, rooting, and stunning to prevent escape and a gap being generated. This is done because of the fact that most of your resource gen and damage is done within 4m.

Examples include abilities such as Force Crush, Force Choke, Deadly throw, chilling screem ( the AOE snare), Obliterate, Force Push (finishes cooldown leap to then get back into range).

On top of the 10m range design, these classes and specs also come with increases to movement speed through forms and abilities along with added snares and roots to be applied while in 4m range to keep them with you. The also have built in immunity to stuns, roots, and snares for short bursts (vengeance) making it incredibly difficult to even escape 4 m range.

This means that within 10m range, as a warrior no matter the spec, you are effective as you have many tools at your disposal to do damage and bring them back into 4m range, to which you are then given additional tools to keep them there.

Now when building warriors for PVE you opt into PURE DPS INCREASE over things like snares and roots and they are not needed and wasted points in PVE and overall DPS output is on the highest priority. After all, NPC's aren't running away they are always face tanking you. PVE warriors, while still able to do damage at 10m range, have no problem staying within 4m range for 90% of their combat.

In PVP you do not build your spec the same way. You need to spec into the roots, snares, and movement increases as you will be dealing with enemies that will run and kite you trying to stay away, not face tanking. So whereas in PVE you priority is overall DPS over utility, in PVP it is the opposite, Utility comes before overall DPS. PVP as a dps is about controlled burst, not so much about sustained. Again, this is quite opposite to PVE building on multiple levels.

What I am seeing in the debate and "problems" being brought up such as a Powertech able to kite between 5-10m and the warrior is rendered useless, knowing the above information shared, is leading me to believe that aside from getting expertise gear, these people are approaching and playing the warrior in PVP as they would in PVE which is incorrect. Hence, not approaching the warrior class in PVP correctly comment.

While I directed this LONG response around what is being discussed, warriors, I should point out that the other 4 melee archetype classes all ultimately share the same end result - Effective range is 10m. The differences in them depend on their spec and overall class design. EX: Some of the classes have their primary DPS coming from 5-10m which also means they come with less snares, roots, movement increases, ETC; whereas, others will share the traits of a warrior by having their primary dps coming from 4m or less and come equipped with snares, roots, and movement increases tied to their 10m abilities. It's all a balancing act but they all must be within 10m range to be effective.

Sorry this was a essay and if it felt redundant to what you already know, but at this point in the thread I have no idea what people really know or don't know about the game they play.

Honestly, I think this 10 plus pages worth of nothing is entirely down to certain people not correctly understanding their terms and definitions.

 

Melee is defined as hand to hand combat.

Ranged is defined as projectile.

 

The correct term you are looking for is close quarters combat. Close quarters combat includes all forms of combat, range or melee that take place within a restricted area. For instance, soldiers engaging each other in an urban setting using firearms, grenades, knives, etc.

 

Jugs/ Marauders are one of the few classes in this game that you can actually call Melee because their rage builders lock them into the 4m range. Powertechs on the other hand do the vast majority of their damage outside the effective range of the Jug / Marauder. For this reason you cannot classify the PT as melee but you CAN classify it as short ranged or a close quarters combat style.

 

@Raansa

I don't give a toss if you pull the Dev card. If a developer erroneously stated that 4 - 10m is melee range, I would tell him the exact same thing I have told you guys. You don't get to redefine terms and definitions at your wim. If you could then nobody would know what the hell anyone was talking about and we would end up with a lot of wasted time on our hands. Not unlike that which has occurred in this thread.

I honestly think it comes down to you not understanding game design, specifically this game, keeping in mind that this game is not another game....it is this game.

As for your real world reference and how you can't redefine words on a whim, words are always evolving and changing. That fact that you do not know this tells me you have limited experience with it in the real world or just have not noticed. Businesses, Youth, and culture consistently evolve and change word meanings through time and on a whim. The business of MMO gaming has done that exact thing with the terms of Melee and ranged and has been doing this over the past 10 years of RPG's in general. You are taking things very literal and in black and white. Most all of communication and words used can have a literal connotation and figurative connotation.

Here is a link for you of Melee and it's general use today along with some history. The cool thing in this link is it actually defines how it is used in gaming, which is what we are talking about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melee

The fact that in your post you directly state that you would challenge a developer on how they classified their classes and designs on their game as wrong is enough of a clue that again, you can't take your own advise and just admit when you are wrong. It's like going to Picasso and telling him that he painted people the wrong way, thus his artistic creation is then wrong.

Also to the person I just replied to that was confused about my statement saying that people in this thread believe a warriors effective range in pvp is 4m and not 10m... I placed in bold and red a very fresh example of why I said that.

@Raansa

I don't give a toss if you pull the Dev card. If a developer erroneously stated that 4 - 10m is melee range, I would tell him the exact same thing I have told you guys. You don't get to redefine terms and definitions at your wim. If you could then nobody would know what the hell anyone was talking about and we would end up with a lot of wasted time on our hands. Not unlike that which has occurred in this thread.

Best comment of the thread.

This is hilarious.

Oh hang on a minute. This is a computer game with its own rules and laws where people can leap 30 metres, wave around light sabres, shoot lasers, and respawn when they die. But in this case you would tell the devs they are wrong because in real life death is permanent and they don't get to redefine what death actually means in their own game.

I honestly think it comes down to you not understanding game design, specifically this game, keeping in mind that this game is not another game....it is this game.

 

As for your real world reference and how you can't redefine words on a whim, words are always evolving and changing. That fact that you do not know this tells me you have limited experience with it in the real world or just have not noticed. Businesses, Youth, and culture consistently evolve and change word meanings through time and on a whim. The business of MMO gaming has done that exact thing with the terms of Melee and ranged and has been doing this over the past 10 years of RPG's in general. You are taking things very literal and in black and white. Most all of communication and words used can have a literal connotation and figurative connotation.

 

Here is a link for you of Melee and it's general use today along with some history. The cool thing in this link is it actually defines how it is used in gaming, which is what we are talking about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melee

 

 

The fact that in your post you directly state that you would challenge a developer on how they classified their classes and designs on their game as wrong is enough of a clue that again, you can't take your own advise and just admit when you are wrong. It's like going to Picasso and telling him that he painted people the wrong way, thus his artistic creation is then wrong.

 

Also to the person I just replied to that was confused about my statement saying that people in this thread believe a warriors effective range in pvp is 4m and not 10m... I placed in bold and red a very fresh example of why I said that.

Rational response. Well said.

Did you even read the wiki link you posted? LOL.

Oh and btw, these forums are filled with thread stacked upon thread of people challenging developers. Oh golly gosh! How dare anyone challenge a developer! The audacity! The developers are never wrong!

hey shikyo. I can do it too!

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=melee

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/melee

http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Melee_attack

https://www.wordnik.com/words/melee

http://www.wowwiki.com/Melee

You might want to give all these sites a quick email. Apparently they haven't caught on to the new definition of melee!

So to sum up much of Shikyo's recent post:

If you are allowing a pyro PT to kite your jug/mara from 5-10 meters you are doing it wrong.

You sir, are correct.

So to sum up much of Shikyo's recent post:

 

If you are allowing a pyro PT to kite your jug/mara from 5-10 meters you are doing it wrong.

 

You sir, are correct.

A skilled pyro PT can kite a marauder. Flame burst being a spammable snare allows a PT to kite a marauder, as long as the marauder doesn't use predation. If the marauder uses predation, he kills his DPS, (especially rage and annihilation spec).

PT is a melee DPS, that can mid range fight other melee to avoid pure melee attacks (pure melee are juggernauts and marauders). PTs should usually fight in melee range, but when fighting a juggernaut or marauder, the PT should stay at 6 meters from the target, so that he/she doesn't take any hits.

Completely forewarning you, you asked me to explain that passage and it is one hell of a read.

That was a long read indeed, but thanks for clearing everything up. I just wanted to add that as a Jugg/Mara you'd want to always be in 4m range, that is the correct approach in PvP, but as a PT, always trying to be at 4m (Like Raansu seems to suggest) is absolutely stupid. Since doing otherwise means you barely lose any DPS (especially as Pyro) but notice a MASSIVE gain in survivability when fighting Juggs/Maras. Therefore, a PT's effective and optimal range depends on the type of class he is fighting.

A skilled pyro PT can kite a marauder. Flame burst being a spammable snare allows a PT to kite a marauder, as long as the marauder doesn't use predation. If the marauder uses predation, he kills his DPS, (especially rage and annihilation spec).

 

PT is a melee DPS, that can mid range fight other melee to avoid pure melee attacks (pure melee are juggernauts and marauders). PTs should usually fight in melee range, but when fighting a juggernaut or marauder, the PT should stay at 6 meters from the target, so that he/she doesn't take any hits.

^ This pretty much sums it up, although I will say that a good marauder / jugg should not let themselves be kited, and the key to that is using a snare. This was easy when everyone was Rage due to the auto snare on Obliterate / Force Charge, or if you are Annihilation, since rupture gives a snare as well if you spec into it (and you damn well should be if you are pvp Anni spec). Having played PT, Mara, and Jugg all at 55 in PvP, I can say that it is entirely a skill / reaction based thing. A GOOD PT certainly can kite and easily kill a bad or even mediocre mara / jugg, although certain specs will be more difficult. A BAD PT will face tank said classes and say "but I'm a tank I should be able to just sit here". No, stupid, you are a dps and you have a mid range ability that gives you an edge over a Mara / Jugg. Use your advantages.

A sorc, merc, sniper, or similar ranged class has multiple ranged spammable abilities and they may fight at max range without dps loss.

A Jugg or Marauder have several ranged abiltiies, but all of their spammable heavy dps is within the 4m range. They also have some mid range abilities, but to be effective, they need to be within 4m, and they have the tools to get there if they us them properly.

A PT has two very good spammable abilties, one with 10m range, the other (their auto attack) with 30m range. Thus, their effective dps range is 10m, however, they do have some 4m abiltiies. Whether or not it is worth using those, depends on the situation and who they are fighting, as doing a little damage while not taking any damage from your opponent is always preferred to doing more damage and taking damage. So vs. a ranged class, they should play like a melee class. Against a melee class, they should kite in that 6-10m range and play as ranged. This unique and awesome characteristic is what separates good PTs from bad ones.

A skilled pyro PT can kite a marauder. Flame burst being a spammable snare allows a PT to kite a marauder, as long as the marauder doesn't use predation. If the marauder uses predation, he kills his DPS, (especially rage and annihilation spec).

A PT can kite a marauder to some degree. You are forgetting the arsenal of roots and snares available to the maurader, plus you forgot camo. Additionally Carnage is baseline 15% faster than pyro anyway.

PT is a melee DPS, that can mid range fight other melee to avoid pure melee attacks (pure melee are juggernauts and marauders). PTs should usually fight in melee range, but when fighting a juggernaut or marauder, the PT should stay at 6 meters from the target, so that he/she doesn't take any hits.

Although I agree with this.

Did you even read the wiki link you posted? LOL.

 

Oh and btw, these forums are filled with thread stacked upon thread of people challenging developers. Oh golly gosh! How dare anyone challenge a developer! The audacity! The developers are never wrong!

 

hey shikyo. I can do it too!

 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=melee

This links each use as numbers like most dictionaries do. 3rd one down you should give a read as it clearly says close combat something you, yourself used to describe powertech and said was not melee and people are using the word wrong. Also, urban dictionary is that dictionary that lists all the common current day uses of a word which is the result of redefining words on a whim, again something you said cannot be done.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/melee

I very literal and official definition. You should note that only the 1st of it's 3 definitions say hand to hand combat and is recent to the word when looking at the lifespan of that word. You should pay particular notice to the origin of the word as it will give you a great understanding of how word meanings change over time and become redefined. Although you may be playing a marauder or juggernaut in confusion, I don't think even you wish to include the "confused" portion of "confused hand to hand combat" in its literal definition (ARE YOU CHANGING A WORDS MEANING ON A WHIM??!! ZOMG!

http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Melee_attack

As I stated before, we are talking about swtor and not doom. But this does illustrate how a game defines Melee within it's design code. It's also important to inform you that Doom was originally created and developed in 1993. This supports what I said about how Melee has evolved in the gaming industry through time as it relates to design.

https://www.wordnik.com/words/melee

Never heard of this site but it looks like someone paraphrased the literal definitions of melee. Refer to above. And note that the literal definition has little to do with how the advance classes were developed into archetypes.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Melee

Again, we are talking about swtor and not WoW but I should also inform you that WoW was designed from Warcraft. Warcraft was released in 1992, WoW in 2004. This again supports what I said about how things have evolved in RPGs over time in the industry as you can see it changed through other RPG and MMO releases from 1992 -2014.

You might want to give all these sites a quick email. Apparently they haven't caught on to the new definition of melee!

Check above, I have no need to contact them as I would never contact a game developer and say, "Excuse me sir or mam but I don't approve your usage or description of Melee in the game you created. It is not literal and offensive." That is something you would do as you clearly stated earlier.

You sir did not read the link I posted at all so allow me to copy and paste the gaming portion for you:

"Use in gaming

"Melee" has been adopted and popularized as a term in war-gaming, board games, tabletop role-playing games and video games to encompass all close-quarter fighting and directly striking an opponent at ranges generally less than a few feet with, but not only, fists, feet, knives, rifle-butts or any other melee weapon or special spells or tactics with the intention of causing harm.

The term was first applied to games in H.G. Wells's 1913 Little Wars, where the author develops a "melee rule" in his war game. It was later popularized by Dungeons & Dragons, which featured a "melee phase" to represent the fighting of characters outside of bows and magic.

This term still applies to most role-playing games, but is often used in the context of first-person shooter video games to specify a non-ranged attack. This began with the 1992 game Wolfenstein 3D, which featured a knife that could be selected from the inventory, just like a gun. Because of the risk involved in using a melee weapon, they were typically the most powerful weapons available, in terms of damage. Later, Duke Nukem 3D would include a button that allowed the character to kick enemies while still wielding a gun. A Nintendo franchise called Super Smash Bros. had its second game released in 2001 for the GameCube and used the term "melee" in the title.

In strategy games, especially real-time strategy, infantry units that do not use gunpowder are often called melee units."

Also you should read the links you posted. I put in red some neat information about them as it pertains to the response I gave you to which you gave a childish response. Are you ready to admit you are wrong yet???

A skilled pyro PT can kite a marauder. Flame burst being a spammable snare allows a PT to kite a marauder, as long as the marauder doesn't use predation. If the marauder uses predation, he kills his DPS, (especially rage and annihilation spec).

 

PT is a melee DPS, that can mid range fight other melee to avoid pure melee attacks (pure melee are juggernauts and marauders). PTs should usually fight in melee range, but when fighting a juggernaut or marauder, the PT should stay at 6 meters from the target, so that he/she doesn't take any hits.

I am unfamiliar with flame burst having a snare attached to it on my powertech to make this kiting such a success, can you help me find that? Spamming it will cause you to have too much heat tho making you useless.

I agree, PT is a melee DPS and can attempt to mid range fight a melee to avoid their strengths, however this is only possible against bad ones that are spec'd for PVE and unable to root/snare me. Also if they are dumb enough to let me hydraulic away instead of stunning me through most of it's duration.

As long as I stay within 10m of a juggy or marauder, they should be able to control me and lay waste using the tools given to them. Their 10m moves are designed to turn that 10m into 4m, then their 4m attacks are designed to keep you their. Plus they have movement increases that makes them impossible to out run for more then a few globals as a powertech.

That was a long read indeed, but thanks for clearing everything up. I just wanted to add that as a Jugg/Mara you'd want to always be in 4m range, that is the correct approach in PvP, but as a PT, always trying to be at 4m (Like Raansu seems to suggest) is absolutely stupid. Since doing otherwise means you barely lose any DPS (especially as Pyro) but notice a MASSIVE gain in survivability when fighting Juggs/Maras. Therefore, a PT's effective and optimal range depends on the type of class he is fighting.

No problem.

And yes, the strategy, no matter what class or class type you are, changes based on the class you are going against.

A PT can kite a marauder to some degree. You are forgetting the arsenal of roots and snares available to the maurader, plus you forgot camo. Additionally Carnage is baseline 15% faster than pyro anyway.

 

 

Although I agree with this.

Carnage spec is the only marauder spec with access to roots (other than force jump and/or obliterate). Carnage spec is very easy for a PT to kill. A PT does not have to worry about kiting a carnage marauder. Stun the first gore, carbonize the second, and the marauder is probably dead before a third gore window. Roots don't do anything to a pyro PT, because of hydraulic overrides. An annihilation spec marauder can beat a PT 1 versus 1, if the PT doesn't kite, but just barely. Rage will lose 1 versus 1 against a pyro PT, and carnage will lose 1 versus 1 against a pyro PT.

Marauder is very weak right now in PVP, because of survivabilty, not because of damage (annihilation spec has very nice damage, carnage spec is hit or miss damage). Undying rage is very weak, and force camouflage should break roots baseline.

So now people are ************ about not being able to leap + snare a PT ?

The only way a PT can kite you is if you the next global cooldown after leap isn't snare. And i don't know why, but a lot of people seem to make that mistake in order to pew pew sooner.

Carnage spec is the only marauder spec with access to roots (other than force jump and/or obliterate). Carnage spec is very easy for a PT to kill. A PT does not have to worry about kiting a carnage marauder. Stun the first gore, carbonize the second, and the marauder is probably dead before a third gore window. Roots don't do anything to a pyro PT, because of hydraulic overrides. An annihilation spec marauder can beat a PT 1 versus 1, if the PT doesn't kite, but just barely. Rage will lose 1 versus 1 against a pyro PT, and carnage will lose 1 versus 1 against a pyro PT.

 

Marauder is very weak right now in PVP, because of survivabilty, not because of damage (annihilation spec has very nice damage, carnage spec is hit or miss damage). Undying rage is very weak, and force camouflage should break roots baseline.

Camo breaking roots is a good idea to be honest, one of the more sensible proposals.

Sup yo!

I'd like to introduce myself. I'm shikyo and i'm the guy who defies webster!

Seriously tho.. lol!.

Urban dictionary - third one down states "a close-range attack, sometimes hand to hand but usually with the butt of a weapon." Both hand to hand and smacking someone with the butt of a weapon = melee. The term has not been redefined here to incorporate shooting someone in the face with a pistol at 10 yards.

Terms do get redefined, yes this is correct, but still is only a half truth. The MAJORITY have to agree and use it. Show me your majority lol. I still can't find a single site which supports your claim.. and yes I have been looking!

Now for your wiki link.

Show me in the "use in gaming" section where it states that shooting someone in the face at 10 paces is considered a melee attack.