crafting should have nothing to do with a slot machine.

their fix corrected the issue. now if you want resources put in the hard work and run crewskills.

Yes I can agree to that though I still believe crew skills had value in that they were easy enough to run and weren't making me a loss yet.

As I said and based on the numbers provided I think moving that decimal point really gives the equilibrium required.

That or make the Jawa Junk buy mats that are only BOP then use any generous system they like. The tough bit there is they would need code it so any items crafted with bound materials became bound and that's probably quite a large coding change and won't happen.

My main point on the bound materials though is to seperate those that truly only enjoyed crafting for themselves cheaply and easily ( who I have no problem with what so ever ) vs the greedy people who are butt hurt over losing a money tree and I have little sympathy for over any of this.

crafting should have nothing to do with a slot machine.

 

their fix corrected the issue. now if you want resources put in the hard work and run crewskills.

Now let me first say that I agree with you about how crafting should have nothing to do with a slot machine, and that crew skills should be the way to get resources.

But I still disagree about your claim that the economy has been "ruined"

Did you miss my post to you earlier today? Scroll up, it's right on this very page. Or are you trying to duck out of the argument because your "factor of 10" statement was simply hyperbole?

The thing is, is that the people who whinge about this aren't crafters. They are leeches, to be fair here. They are the ones who buy things like midlithe crystals at about 4k credits, and then resell them for 90k credits. This is worse than nerfing the slot machines. So, what needs to be done is the leeches who mark up prices need to stop, and support those who spend credits either running missions or using the slot machines, by not buying materials, and resell them at uber-high prices.

The problem with your theory is that one can only mark up the prices in this economy that much if someone has stupidly listed it way below market value.

Generally that doesn't happen and there is very little buying and reselling occurring in the midlithe market as your example pertained to.

Well I would say there WASN'T because once they stopped the slots many people bought up to re-list higher but that's more of these rare things that happen as opposed to something that is a regular occurrence.

crafting should have nothing to do with a slot machine.

 

 

their fix corrected the issue. now if you want resources put in the hard work and run crewskills.

There's no such thing as "hard work" in SWTOR. Companion missions might feel different, but it's all just click + RNG = crafting mats. The user interface being a mirror versus a menu is just a UI difference. Would you feel differently if they had rolled out "Companion Flash Missions" that only take 10 seconds and provided the same end results as the slot machine?

There's nothing inherently superior about the existing mission skills versus the slot machine, both are zero effort time investments to gain crafting materials.

There's no such thing as "hard work" in SWTOR. Companion missions might feel different, but it's all just click + RNG = crafting mats. The user interface being a mirror versus a menu is just a UI difference. Would you feel differently if they had rolled out "Companion Flash Missions" that only take 10 seconds and provided the same end results as the slot machine?

 

There's nothing inherently superior about the existing mission skills versus the slot machine, both are zero effort time investments to gain crafting materials.

Thank heavens there's another crafter out there that doesn't think that crafting is hard work.

I don't know where all these people get how hard they worked to level up their crafting skills and how many millions they spent. I did it while leveling up my alts, and if you do the training right the costs aren't much at all.

And per your original critique, they could have easily fixed it by putting a lockout on the slot machine similar to the one for crafting nodes (not a random chance one though, more like pull X number of times), and rebalancing the jawa scrap that's dropped to a sliding scale like the rep chips. That would have fixed both the cost advantage and the time advantage the original iteration of the machine had over crew missions.

But let's be honest people, there's no inherent difference between the slot machine or running crew missions for mats, in both cases you are clicking buttons. The only method that even moderately approaches work is gathering from nodes on planets.

There's no such thing as "hard work" in SWTOR. Companion missions might feel different, but it's all just click + RNG = crafting mats. The user interface being a mirror versus a menu is just a UI difference. Would you feel differently if they had rolled out "Companion Flash Missions" that only take 10 seconds and provided the same end results as the slot machine?

 

There's nothing inherently superior about the existing mission skills versus the slot machine, both are zero effort time investments to gain crafting materials.

Yup... I'm doing "hard work" right now by running 4 characters with 6 companions out on missions while reading this.

And I also spent an hour or so earlier doing "hard work" by leveling up treasure hunting on another character while running through the forged alliances flashpoints.

I'm all sweaty from all this "hard work"

The problem with your theory is that one can only mark up the prices in this economy that much if someone has stupidly listed it way below market value.

 

Generally that doesn't happen and there is very little buying and reselling occurring in the midlithe market as your example pertained to.

 

Well I would say there WASN'T because once they stopped the slots many people bought up to re-list higher but that's more of these rare things that happen as opposed to something that is a regular occurrence.

There has been market gouging for a long time. I saw, with my own eyes, where someone had posted midlithe crystals for 90k a piece. The most should have been 3k a piece. Here's why. The rich mission, or if you crit on a bountiful, runs between 3k and 4k. You get, out of the mission, at least 2 crystals, with the most I've seen, is about 6. Now, let's do some math. 1 mission, 2 crystals, should run you between 1.5k and 2k a crystal. So, to sell on the GTN. it should be listed between 2k and 3k per crystal. That would be more than enough to cover the cost of the mission, and enough of a profit to matter. Price gouging at 90k a piece is overkill. And this is not the only case I know of, but the one I know most about. I have seen other materials that were set to 1 billion credits for one item. And most people playing the game does not have that many credits. Listing for that much is outrageous.

Getting back to my original point, I say that adding more nodes, and making the respawn rate much faster, to both Rishi and Yavin 4 will make things a lot better and add to the economy of the game, instead of the credit sellers and price gougers.

The most should have been 3k a piece. Here's why. The rich mission, or if you crit on a bountiful, runs between 3k and 4k. You get, out of the mission, at least 2 crystals, with the most I've seen, is about 6. Now, let's do some math. 1 mission, 2 crystals, should run you between 1.5k and 2k a crystal.

With a full affection companion, a crit happens 20% of the time, which translates to an average of 5 missions to get a crit.

Dust to Diamond - 3755 cr ea x 5 missions = 18775 cr total / 2 Midlithe = 9,387 per purple

The Long Way There - 3890 ea x 5 missions = 19450 cr total / 3 Midlithe = 6,483 per purple

This cost can be offset by vendoring the blues. Hiridu Crystal sells for 165 each. The 10 missions above would return a combined 74 blues, which would vendor for 12,210.

This would bring the total cost for 5 purples (running the above two missions 5 times each) to 26015, and the per-purple cost down to 5203 each.

Note that I'm not excusing someone selling for 90k each -- that is grossly overpriced.

But you should certainly stop saying foolish things like this:

So, to sell on the GTN. it should be listed between 2k and 3k per crystal. That would be more than enough to cover the cost of the mission, and enough of a profit to matter.

My question is: did anyone buy those crystals at 90k each? Sellers can post at any price they wish, but if no one buys at those high prices who cares? If someone or a number of someones did buy at 90k each then maybe those prices are not as outrageous as we think (and yes I think that is an outrageous price). But as sellers we do occasionally desire to push the upper limit of an item's price range. And the only way to do so is to try. If we fail to sell, all we have lost is 24 hours and we learn something.

But you are neglecting what is really happening on alot of servers, collusion and cornering of the market. If you do not have any other options for your immediate need, you are forced to pay those prices on the GTN, or don't craft while you wait for mats to come in.

In a competitive market, you are right, someone will compete, undercut, and make the sale. It's no longer a competitive market and the vast majority of players know it they've just been swallowing the bitter cup to the dregs because they have no other choice.

The introduction of the slot machine gave them that choice, it gave them a taste of freedom from the GTN gouging, it let the genie out of the bottle that it doesn't have to be like it is now. GTN traders should make note of this because you can't get the genie back in, the demands for alternate means of gathering and crafting will increase if the ridiculous prices continue.

If you do not have any other options for your immediate need, you are forced to pay those prices on the GTN, or don't craft while you wait for mats to come in.

Failure to plan is a plan for failure. Yes, those sellers are banking on buyers who fail to plan. Is that the sellers' fault?

Furthermore, the smart buyer should see those prices, check the pricing of the item they want to craft in the first place, and then buy the (definitely cheaper) finished crafted good instead. Why craft something with outrageously expensive materials when you can buy the finished good for less? Even the chance to crit an extra does not balance the scales.

But you are neglecting what is really happening on alot of servers, collusion and cornering of the market.

You really believe that don't you? The average "market" has a large number of participants. There is NO WAY IN HELL even a handful of them could corner that market for more than a day. The conspiracy to collude you are suggesting is IMPOSSIBLE to maintain. Might a buyer get unlucky and "need" something from the GTN on a day when someone or a small group tries to corner a market? Absolutely. But all that buyer has to do is wait. If that buyer is too impatient, again is that the sellers' fault? Again those sellers are probably banking on buyers "needing" those items. The question is does that buyer REALLY need that item right that second? probably not.

My question is: did anyone buy those crystals at 90k each? Sellers can post at any price they wish, but if no one buys at those high prices who cares? If someone or a number of someones did buy at 90k each then maybe those prices are not as outrageous as we think (and yes I think that is an outrageous price). But as sellers we do occasionally desire to push the upper limit of an item's price range. And the only way to do so is to try. If we fail to sell, all we have lost is 24 hours and we learn something.

While I probably wouldn't buy Midlithe at 90k per, I bought plenty at 40K-45K (and a few stacks at < 6K last week). I was selling dyes (which only use one Midlithe) at 150K-200K for a while. I run my own missions and could easily find them cheaper than 90k, but if I had a Level 500 Artificer and wanted a specific dye, the 11K price for the schematic and 100K for mats would have been cheaper than buying many finished products.

OFC, this was never going to last forever, I'm not upset that the market was disrupted, but I am upset at how clumsily it was handled.

If you do not have any other options for your immediate need, you are forced to pay those prices on the GTN, or don't craft while you wait for mats to come in.

That term, "immediate need" holds the KEY to the eternal struggle between sellers and consumers. Players that want stuff RAHHT NAOO is what allows sellers to drive prices up.

I remember when Campaign gear was the top gear in the game and could be RE'ed for a schematic. Players were selling it for big bucks. I could have afforded buying some of this gear, but I felt it was too expensive so I didn't. Instead I ran a bunch of group finder pugs, got Black Hole commendations, and bought the gear I needed. Over time. No rush.

It's the same thing here. Lets say some crafter with a zillion credits tries to corner the market, buying up all Midlithe under 90K and relisting it to "force" people to pay that price. Solution: Don't freaking buy it.

That "immediate need" you thought you had? It's not really as immediate as you think. Run some flashpoints instead, do some dailies, do some PvP, run your own crafting missions, etc. The price WILL fall if people stop buying it. Because demand went below supply.

A couple quick thoughts to add...

Unless I missed a change, the crit rate on missions that are orange font (hard difficulty level), is only 15%, which applies to Rich Yield missions at 500 level. So you have to adjust the math down a little on crit rate which increases the unit cost slightly, but crits for all but Diplomacy include a schematic that can be sold to the vendor to defray some cost as well.

The GTN only lists offer prices at which someone is willing to sell items. The only bid side, in financial market terms, on the GTN are actual purchases. I can list an item for infinite credits, but that's meaningless until someone pays it. There was plenty wrong with GTN prices before and after the slot machines, but this isn't one of them.

Ok did another test:

 

200 x Contraband Cartel Chip

 

gave me

 

25x Scraps: Scavenged Scraps

27x Scraps: Assorted Droid Parts

29x Scraps: Jawa Junk

+

27x Banned Holovids

18x Prohibited Medical Supplies

12x Confiskated Artwork

2x Cartel Market Certificate

 

Considering some hits just return the chip ... and one use is roughly 6 sec ... it could took like 30 minutes ... thats half of a mission time, which has to actually crit, to give you 3 measly purples (only if its bountiful+). Suppose the crit chance is let's say 10% (really no idea here) and u go 6 chars at a time ... it would take crew skill missions approximately so you have about 47% chance that during one hour you hit 3 purple mats ... so lets say average 1 and half purple mat / hour ... costing you about 30k (20k per piece)

 

versus the slot mashine

 

where you get around 60 mats / hour ... costing you exactly 100k (1,6k per piece)

 

So using slot mashine is 40 times faster way to obtain the mats and it's 12.5 times cheaper (also u re getting universal ones and of course not crew skill dependent, also no need to train or develop anything...)

 

Seems hardly fair to me ...

 

Can we perhaps get an official statement about the matter if its intended or what?!

Faster, but more expensive and we all know how massively cheap crafters are and how greedy they are....but then again, players in general can be impatient and tend to take the quick solution, i personally gather the materials myself, i send out the companions for the underworld metal and i gather the scavenging stuff myself, crafting is not dead exactly, its just fracked up because most crafters don't have a clue on what an item is worth, they just craft an item that might cost them not even 1000cr to make and then slap a price of 10000cr onto it and put it up for Auction......yet they wonder why crafting is as dead as it is.

That term, "immediate need" holds the KEY to the eternal struggle between sellers and consumers. Players that want stuff RAHHT NAOO is what allows sellers to drive prices up.

 

I remember when Campaign gear was the top gear in the game and could be RE'ed for a schematic. Players were selling it for big bucks. I could have afforded buying some of this gear, but I felt it was too expensive so I didn't. Instead I ran a bunch of group finder pugs, got Black Hole commendations, and bought the gear I needed. Over time. No rush.

 

It's the same thing here. Lets say some crafter with a zillion credits tries to corner the market, buying up all Midlithe under 90K and relisting it to "force" people to pay that price. Solution: Don't freaking buy it.

 

That "immediate need" you thought you had? It's not really as immediate as you think. Run some flashpoints instead, do some dailies, do some PvP, run your own crafting missions, etc. The price WILL fall if people stop buying it. Because demand went below supply.

Could not have said it better.

Faster, but more expensive and we all know how massively cheap crafters are and how greedy they are....but then again, players in general can be impatient and tend to take the quick solution, i personally gather the materials myself, i send out the companions for the underworld metal and i gather the scavenging stuff myself, crafting is not dead exactly, its just fracked up because most crafters don't have a clue on what an item is worth, they just craft an item that might cost them not even 1000cr to make and then slap a price of 10000cr onto it and put it up for Auction......yet they wonder why crafting is as dead as it is.

I guess we are going to renew this debate once again...

You know what? It's not even worth it. If it makes you feel superior, believe whatever you want.

Well i really hope that 30 pages of ************ and complaining and whining about the damn slot machine , prompting byoware to nerf it into the damn ground has made all the damn "crafters" happy , this besides the other flood of mewling on other threads i saw in this sub-forum.

****s sake , i mean , couldn't you at least try to provide a damn constructive sollution to the problem , besides the consistent ************ ? For instance , instead of dropping the rates into purgatory levels of low , they could have placed a fixed amount of coins that you can use on the machine for X amount of days , like the lockout that operations have. This , along with increasing the price for the coins ( which they did anyways ) , would have stopped the spamming and still kept the damn thing useful.

Now the damn thing is useless , unless you want to bang your head against the damn monitor , trying to the get the robot chicken mounts , it has no other use once you hit legend with the reputation faction , so congrats to all the assbags that complained about it so much , that they made it useless.

I think I've used that thing about 4 times in total , since it got released and got about 20 purple scrap , so i could buy the mat related to augments and that was about it , since the damn missions are ridiculously expensive and i only have slicing on 1 character , it was a way to supplement my augmenting needs to a certain degree , but now , with all the complaining around that thing , you managed to get it to be useless , i can only pity the people who actually purchased the machine from the GTN for a few solid million creds.

Well i really hope that 30 pages of ************ and complaining and whining about the damn slot machine , prompting byoware to nerf it into the damn ground has made all the damn "crafters" happy , this besides the other flood of mewling on other threads i saw in this sub-forum.

Please do not lump all "crafters" together. I (and others) were firmly in the "wait and see" camp.

Well i really hope that 30 pages of ************ and complaining and whining about the damn slot machine , prompting byoware to nerf it into the damn ground has made all the damn "crafters" happy , this besides the other flood of mewling on other threads i saw in this sub-forum.

 

****s sake , i mean , couldn't you at least try to provide a damn constructive sollution to the problem , besides the consistent ************ ? For instance , instead of dropping the rates into purgatory levels of low , they could have placed a fixed amount of coins that you can use on the machine for X amount of days , like the lockout that operations have. This , along with increasing the price for the coins ( which they did anyways ) , would have stopped the spamming and still kept the damn thing useful.

 

Now the damn thing is useless , unless you want to bang your head against the damn monitor , trying to the get the robot chicken mounts , it has no other use once you hit legend with the reputation faction , so congrats to all the assbags that complained about it so much , that they made it useless.

 

I think I've used that thing about 4 times in total , since it got released and got about 20 purple scrap , so i could buy the mat related to augments and that was about it , since the damn missions are ridiculously expensive and i only have slicing on 1 character , it was a way to supplement my augmenting needs to a certain degree , but now , with all the complaining around that thing , you managed to get it to be useless , i can only pity the people who actually purchased the machine from the GTN for a few solid million creds.

Not all crafters were complaining about the slot machine. I would suggest you check the forums to see that. I am a Master Craftsman and yet I suggested we wait and see what happened. In fact one of my posts suggested that we give it a while as people tend to get bored and move on to something else.

Faster, but more expensive and we all know how massively cheap crafters are and how greedy they are....but then again, players in general can be impatient and tend to take the quick solution, i personally gather the materials myself, i send out the companions for the underworld metal and i gather the scavenging stuff myself, crafting is not dead exactly, its just fracked up because most crafters don't have a clue on what an item is worth, they just craft an item that might cost them not even 1000cr to make and then slap a price of 10000cr onto it and put it up for Auction......yet they wonder why crafting is as dead as it is.

Wrong. Most of the crafters I know don't do this. In fact the ones I know actually craft items and give it to people in the guild that needs it. I have always crafted for my boyfriend and my guild with no charge to them. You may have seen a few crafters that have marked things up but in general most of the crafters are marking them at a price that is correct for the mats they have to gather, especially the purple ones, since you cannot harvest those. Those have to be gathered by mission only.

Not all crafters were complaining about the slot machine. I would suggest you check the forums to see that. I am a Master Craftsman and yet I suggested we wait and see what happened. In fact one of my posts suggested that we give it a while as people tend to get bored and move on to something else.

I wouldn't consider myself a "master" crafter like Scarlet and Psandak are, but I was in this boat as well. Tried to be a voice of reason here and there, but as is typical in online forums, reasonable discussions are typically drowned out by emotional ones.

I finally gave up and was trying to encourage those who thought crafting was ruined to stop doing it. Figuring it would mean less competition for me in the end.

Newsflash : http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=793097

Well, sort of.

Listening to vocal crafters apparingly makes a lot people very bitter -

- people those vocal crafters haven't even heard off ...

The whole slot machine argument is about 100 times bigger than the mids PVP argument. Reading the first couple pages of general forums you'd think the slots machines were the most important thing in the game and nothing else exists.