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Class balance became much worse.4.x-5.x were much better

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Class balance became much worse.4.x-5.x were much better

lord-angelus's Avatar


lord-angelus
12.11.2019 , 08:51 AM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Dralor View Post
PT set bonus exploding all over is a little much and the stealth classes seem a bit overturned but even with that being said balance feels better now than it has a lot of the other times I’ve played.
Rémove that and pt is back to being garbage again. You should fear when attacking pt, it's already glass cannon even now. It's not much,

DavidAtkinson's Avatar


DavidAtkinson
12.11.2019 , 09:29 AM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by Dralor View Post
PT set bonus exploding all over is a little much and the stealth classes seem a bit overturned but even with that being said balance feels better now than it has a lot of the other times I’ve played.
Considering that PT are the same garbage they were for 3 years and are dying first in solo ranked 80% of the time, we really cannot be mad at that set bonus honestly...

It can be countered, but we might be too busy mashing the keyboard..
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omaan's Avatar


omaan
12.11.2019 , 09:43 AM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Yamahara View Post
Lol no, I'm good off the sniper/mara hard swap 5.0's garbage. Tune down concealment and deception and everything will be better for the most part. Carnage, madness, and a few others might need a boost but everything else can be played in 4's now without being rolled by a single overpowered comp.
You are talking about tr while i meant sr since tr died after season 10. It became as a wintrade field where classes and specs doesn't matter. You can queue tr but if you won't ask anyone to queue against your team you will sit in queue forever. We should focus on something that exists, alive and mostly legit. Snipers weren't fotm in sr during previous seasons, playing them was extremely hard. Touching them now is not a good idea whereas all classes are on nearly same position except dec sin, burst oper and dot pts

supertimtaf's Avatar


supertimtaf
12.11.2019 , 10:12 AM | #34
Issue with sin imo is that it doesn't encourage you to play the class properly.
Someone pointed out that the open is reck, spike, discharge, stun then three maul back to back.
This imo is the only issue with the current design I have. As a decep' sin you're supposed to use Maul when you have duplicity procs, not spam it because it's just too good even without.

Good balance should reward good gameplay, not braindead spam.

However, I have to warn too, that the only reason sins are "op" is because of this flaw in the design. Remove the maul spam without duplicity and you have what I'd call a balanced class against the other class.

Let's rewind back in time to 5.X era, I'm sorry but I don't want to go back into this time where as a melee you had to either tank or be a mara to survive long enough for merc/sniper to cycle through their defensive.

Most spec in the game now are unbalanced. Mercs have too much defensive, snipers too, mara are still as good as before (except Carnage, poor dude needs a buff), now dot PT/burst Sin got some buffs too because at the time it was just almost impossible to survive in ranked or unranked if your team didn't put way too much ressource into you to make you survive.

Peoples are complaining about seeing only sin/oper in game now, but I think most of you forgot how queues looked like at the start of S8, full with only mara/snipers/merc. FOTM rollers still exists, deal with it, and we're all lucky because they're as bad on sin/oper as they were on mara/sniper/merc at the time.

nerfs are needed, but nerfing only sins and oper because they're "op" would just put back the old trio on top. Which I frankly don't want to happen because I don't see the point of reverting back to another unbalanced era. Instead of asking for nerfs to one spec, try and ask for nerfs for every spec that was OP in the last two or three years. Because as soon as you nerf burst sins, dot PTs and oper, you can be sure that those old FOTM will come back, which we do not want to happen.
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JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
12.11.2019 , 11:34 AM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by supertimtaf View Post
nerfs are needed, but nerfing only sins and oper because they're "op" would just put back the old trio on top. Which I frankly don't want to happen because I don't see the point of reverting back to another unbalanced era. Instead of asking for nerfs to one spec, try and ask for nerfs for every spec that was OP in the last two or three years. Because as soon as you nerf burst sins, dot PTs and oper, you can be sure that those old FOTM will come back, which we do not want to happen.
I've seen this sort of sentiment a lot, and I think it speaks to Bioware having a flawed approach to balancing classes. Rather than making small changes to things that need changing, they try to get the balance perfect in broad strokes, so they often end up over-buffing or over-nerfing.

But it doesn't have to be that way. They could easily make some small tweaks to deception and concealment set bonuses to tone down their burst. Then see what the community thinks. If it wasn't enough, they can do something else. And they could make changes like that relatively frequently. Rather than waiting a full year and doing a huge balance patch that seems as likely to make things worse as better.

Sadly, there's an even more fundamental problem: Bioware doesn't listen to the community's feedback when it comes to pvp balance, nor are they aware of what's happening in ranked. They seem to rely solely on whatever metrics they choose to look it, which I assume boils down to just raw, overall damage numbers. Hopefully things will be different with 6.0.

Yamahara's Avatar


Yamahara
12.11.2019 , 01:04 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by omaan View Post
You are talking about tr while i meant sr since tr died after season 10. It became as a wintrade field where classes and specs doesn't matter. You can queue tr but if you won't ask anyone to queue against your team you will sit in queue forever. We should focus on something that exists, alive and mostly legit. Snipers weren't fotm in sr during previous seasons, playing them was extremely hard. Touching them now is not a good idea whereas all classes are on nearly same position except dec sin, burst oper and dot pts
Yeah sadly that is the case nowadays. Though instead of asking for a nerf, we should be asking to bring everything else that's lacking up to par. We always ask for nerfs when something is over tuned, but then BW manages to totally mess something up when trying to balance with nerfs.
Lukewarm Tauntauns

Lhancelot's Avatar


Lhancelot
12.11.2019 , 02:43 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by DavidAtkinson View Post
I was reading PTS forums on daily basis and no one ever mentioned anything OP about Sins in their respective threads. All you could read is that how garbage their set bonuses were compared to other classes. Look how that turned out to be..

The only place were there were hints was on discord.
That doesn't remove validity from the OP's thread, though.

Also, changes were made right up to the last day on PTS. It's not some big surprise that players on the live server are complaining far more than those from PTS about sins or ops having too strong of gearing sets or tacticals etc.

Number one, the amount of players on the PTS was minascule. Number two, thousands of players have poured hundreds of hours into playing these classes/against these classes and are far more aware of what's going on now than what was happening on PTS.

You can't use anecdotal evidence alone to prove your point that people are just overreacting and irresponsibly lying now about how OP'd certain classes are compared to others due to strong tacticals or gear sets.

These people are showing screenshots of massive damage being dumped in split second times by sins on top of classes renowned for having strong DCDs (mercs no less lol) and they don't even need to respect the DCDs now because of the amount of damage they are able to output in short periods of time.

I don't really care now, have no dog to fight in this but I think you are a bit blinded by your bias and if I had to guess I'd guess you main a sin or op. That's not a bad thing, I get it. When they boosted mercs, I was overjoyed because I had played the class since the start and it was always a free kill to most other classes until they buffed the mercs DCDs.

Thing is, let's be honest here and not just you, but others defending sins... Take the bias lens off, and at the very least celebrate the fact sins are over-performing don't pretend it's not the case though. Trying to deny their present state won't do any good especially when so many others know the truth.

The funny thing is it used to be DPS mercs were said to be brain dead easy. Especially Arsenal which was always very easy to play. Mercs always got this label even though it hardly was true especially when considering the healing merc and the dot spec merc. Now, since 6.0, the sin is getting labeled easy FOTM, and for dec sin it definitely applies when you consider how easy it is to use their absurd burst.
Quote: Originally Posted by omeru View Post
There will be no real class balance change with this clown community manager who hates communication with players and terrible developer team.

Lhancelot's Avatar


Lhancelot
12.11.2019 , 02:51 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Yamahara View Post
Yeah sadly that is the case nowadays. Though instead of asking for a nerf, we should be asking to bring everything else that's lacking up to par. We always ask for nerfs when something is over tuned, but then BW manages to totally mess something up when trying to balance with nerfs.
I am a big supporter of this. ^

I rarely cry for nerfs, I rather see other clases be brought up to par instead. Why? Because when classes get nerfed they don't just get their numbers adjusted, they often times get entire rotations altered and abilities get gutted or even removed.

Every time a class gets nerfed the class ends up in the dumpster for YEARS. What started out as fun, becomes a complete garbage spec that only gets played for novelty purposes but never for their performance and it won't get revisited for years.

Anyway, point is people should stop asking for nerfs, this gaming company has proven for years they are incapable of nerfing properly. Unless you want to see a class get neutered and have all the fun stripped from it. In that case, go ahead and demand for a nerf.
Quote: Originally Posted by omeru View Post
There will be no real class balance change with this clown community manager who hates communication with players and terrible developer team.

DavidAtkinson's Avatar


DavidAtkinson
12.11.2019 , 03:29 PM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by Lhancelot View Post
That doesn't remove validity from the OP's thread, though.

Also, changes were made right up to the last day on PTS. It's not some big surprise that players on the live server are complaining far more than those from PTS about sins or ops having too strong of gearing sets or tacticals etc.

Number one, the amount of players on the PTS was minascule. Number two, thousands of players have poured hundreds of hours into playing these classes/against these classes and are far more aware of what's going on now than what was happening on PTS.

You can't use anecdotal evidence alone to prove your point that people are just overreacting and irresponsibly lying now about how OP'd certain classes are compared to others due to strong tacticals or gear sets.

These people are showing screenshots of massive damage being dumped in split second times by sins on top of classes renowned for having strong DCDs (mercs no less lol) and they don't even need to respect the DCDs now because of the amount of damage they are able to output in short periods of time.

I don't really care now, have no dog to fight in this but I think you are a bit blinded by your bias and if I had to guess I'd guess you main a sin or op. That's not a bad thing, I get it. When they boosted mercs, I was overjoyed because I had played the class since the start and it was always a free kill to most other classes until they buffed the mercs DCDs.

Thing is, let's be honest here and not just you, but others defending sins... Take the bias lens off, and at the very least celebrate the fact sins are over-performing don't pretend it's not the case though. Trying to deny their present state won't do any good especially when so many others know the truth.

The funny thing is it used to be DPS mercs were said to be brain dead easy. Especially Arsenal which was always very easy to play. Mercs always got this label even though it hardly was true especially when considering the healing merc and the dot spec merc. Now, since 6.0, the sin is getting labeled easy FOTM, and for dec sin it definitely applies when you consider how easy it is to use their absurd burst.
As a Marauder main, I have hardly any interest in defending sins and ops and crazy braindead OP;ness.. I think you totally misunderstood my post by assuming I was somehow defending sins.

I know OP very well as I do ranked with and against him on daily basis so I totally support his point of view on this matter.

What I said about PTS feedback was just by observation as I never expected such a radical change in the meta for 6.0. I was expecting it to be more or less the same, but I heard rumours ingame right before release of 6.0 about sins being crazy good. Then I got confirmation of it after thing went live and I first got sapped by a sin and my HP somehow vanished..

I am a supporter of sanity in PVP and I am convinced that it's never going to happen in this game and I also believe PVP problems go way beyond class balance. They go straight into game engine being what it is territory and how it handles this crazy mobility classes received over the years. I could care less about how garbage PT is or how OP Deception got when I cannot kill an Oper because he I see him on top platform and I cannot leap up to him only to find out that he is in fact DOWN, or when a guy just vanishes into the map then shows up like 15 meters further away.... These things break PVP more than class imbalance does, but whatever. Glad you thought I am some delusional sin main.

My goal is just to enjoy whatever is left of this game and worry less about... irrelevant things that we obviously have no control over.

PS: Mercs are still very good but they somehow vanished from the que in pre season.. We will see how many we will have when s12 goes live. That fact that such a strong class was put aside by players in favor of stealth speaks volumes about the current state of balance.
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supertimtaf's Avatar


supertimtaf
12.11.2019 , 04:07 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by DavidAtkinson View Post
PS: Mercs are still very good but they somehow vanished from the que in pre season.. We will see how many we will have when s12 goes live. That fact that such a strong class was put aside by players in favor of stealth speaks volumes about the current state of balance.
I think that it's mostly a case of FOTM rollers, again. You'll see when they nerf sin (probably in the next patch, if they only care) that players will probably return to merc. The class is still strong, and no matter how OP sin is, reflect and kolto are burst-breakers. The fact that even the absurd burst we got right now can still be facetanked by one of these defensive cooldowns (or in the case of reflect, force a swap target) says a lot about the class.

Sins are op, for the reason I detailed above (burst should happen when you have duplicity procs, not by spamming maul when it doesn't proc dupl') but nerfing them right now would just break balance even more imo. By "nerfing" I mean the Bioware kind of nerf. The nuke nerf. The one that Hatred got early in the game and still hasn't fully recovered from.
Eliadil - Deception Assassin Leviathan

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