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!Big Concern!: Ranged vs. Melee DPS in FPs & Ops


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I thought I'll bring this up here, since it has been really bothering me lately. Hopefully developers (Hello Georg!) will read this, and this will be addressed. In short:

 

Ranged DPS as of right now have massive advantages over Melee DPS in a number of encounters, especially in HM FPs and Ops, whereas the opposite is never the case. While this can be argued for other games too, I feel its excessive in this game, making some encounters considerably harder, i.e. when you have 2 melee DPS in the group, and giving incentive to raid leaders to just get range DPS.

 

1. Melee are much more subjected to AOE abilities on several encounters, while Ranged DPS can avoid it easily in many cases. Sure, many AOE abilities are avoidable for melee by having them run out or spread out, but that leads us to point 2:

 

2. Trying to avoid AOE abilities for melee DPS by running out causes their sustained DPS to drop off relatively to Ranged DPS.

 

Here are just 3 examples, I am sure there are many more.

 

 

 

 

 

Example 1:

 

 

 

Boarding Party HM Final boss

 

 

 

The Commander's missile puts melee DPS at a much greater disadvantage, due to the fact that they have to stand closer together and cant really spread out from each other to avoid the AE damage.

 

 

 

Example 2:

 

 

 

Khel Thrak (2nd boss Battle of Ilum)

 

 

 

Same thing as in example 1, with his shield probe ability. I am aware melee should avoid hitting him when he gets the buff, but ranged DPS dont really have to worry about ever taking that damage. Secondly, moving away from him when the adds spawn is another burden that Ranged DPS dont have to deal with, at all. This gives them an advantage on damage dealt as well.

 

 

 

Example 3:

 

 

 

Gharj (2nd Boss Eternity Vault)

 

 

 

His pounce ability is not that critical, but it still serves as an example of: Melee DPS have to eat dmg, while Ranged DPS do not. Because Ranged DPS do not have to run out, they have higher sustained DPS because of melee DPS travel time.

 

 

 

Example 4:

 

 

 

SOA (Final Boss Eternity Vault)

 

 

 

The very design of the fight (especially on middle & bottom platform) requires alot of running around and switching targets. Again, because of their longer travel time (even with current mobility abilties) gimp their DPS noticably. Additionally, the lightning balls are much more dangerous for melee DPS than for ranged DPS, due to the fact that they are forced to stand much closer together, while ranged can spread.

 

 

 

 

To alleviate this i can think of several solutions. I am aware that these bring along other balance issues in PVP. They are only suggestions, and there is more discussion required:

 

- Give melee dps higher DPS which should even out sustained DPS over a fight, because they cant DPS some bosses for the same duration than ranged can.

- Increase their mobility

- Give them some sort of AOE mitigation.

 

And the best solution: Encounter Design that has this issue in mind.

Edited by Perlexia
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Actually we were unable to kill some bosses because we had two melee dps and we had to run out everytime boss did some aoe ability..and simply we just hit Enrage at some point. on the other hand with ranged dps it would be piece of cake. So Yea...that sux.
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This issue is in every MMO of it's type. The answer is, if you don't feel you are good enough to move out of the fire and such, then maybe you should play a class more suited to your abilities.

 

I know it sounds harsh, but it is in fact the truth.

 

Also, in terms of group make up for bosses and such, it's best to be able to have some flexibility in your raid groups.

Edited by Mandrax
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95% of the forum posters will troll this thread or add nothing of worth, SWTOR forums, among the worst in history.

 

I honestly think they're about on par with every other MMO on launch. When I browse during the work day I am often filled with disgust and think "this is a new low" then I remember every other mainstream forum on launch, this is about par for course and honestly cleaning up faster than most I think.

 

As far as the OP's point, I get the feeling he is actually wrong in SWTOR but there is no parsing system so neither of us have the numbers to back our opinions up. Melee DPS seems to hit plenty hard in this game, certainly in PvP and I imagine just as much in PvE. I often feel in just about every MMO I've played that melee is the underdog, I get that feeling less here than I have in most games.

 

Note: I am not advocating a parsing system, I do not particularly want one to be honest.

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This issue is in every MMO of it's type. The answer is, if you don't feel you are good enough to move out of the fire and such, then maybe you should play a class more suited to your abilities.

 

I know it sounds harsh, but it is in fact the truth.

 

That's what im arguing against tho. It wasnt as extreme in every other MMO. WoW had this problem initially, but they alleviated it by smart encounter design and changing the classes up. It is not only a problem of avoiding damage too, but more importatnly that melee DPS on mentioned fights is CONSIDERABLY lower.

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I honestly think they're about on par with every other MMO on launch. When I browse during the work day I am often filled with disgust and think "this is a new low" then I remember every other mainstream forum on launch, this is about par for course and honestly cleaning up faster than most I think.

 

As far as the OP's point, I get the feeling he is actually wrong in SWTOR but there is no parsing system so neither of us have the numbers to back our opinions up. Melee DPS seems to hit plenty hard in this game, certainly in PvP and I imagine just as much in PvE. I often feel in just about every MMO I've played that melee is the underdog, I get that feeling less here than I have in most games.

 

Note: I am not advocating a parsing system, I do not particularly want one to be honest.

 

I get your point, and it is true that we have no solid data yet, but: Every raid/group leader who has tried those encounters above with a melee DPS-heavy setup, knows what im talking about. The encounters are considerably harder, and I believe this shouldn't be the case. So from your post, I gather that you haven't tried the hard-mode FPs and Ops yet, maybe you should wait to see those in such a group.

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This issue is in every MMO of it's type. The answer is, if you don't feel you are good enough to move out of the fire and such, then maybe you should play a class more suited to your abilities.

 

I know it sounds harsh, but it is in fact the truth.

 

Also, in terms of group make up for bosses and such, it's best to be able to have some flexibility in your raid groups.

 

I missed the part where the OP felt they weren't good enough to avoid things.

Flexibility is always a good thing, the problem comes when there's little to no downside when stacking ranged. I've always loved melee, always excelled and competed at the very top, but continually find myself with less reason to justify the frustration. MMO developers really need to get a grip on this.

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Congratz on making the same exact post that someone makes on every single gaming board in every single game

 

Did you expect this to be any different in this game?

 

Really?

 

A troll accusing me of trolling, while I think I have made some good points. If only people would actually discuss the issue instead of posting worthless junk like this.

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Not really it is a troll who posts topics that can't be changed

 

You either have no ranged classes (which will never happen) or you nerf ranged classes completely (which again will never happen)

 

Every single game has this issue, EVERY game

 

At least this game has some gap closers and longer then melee range abilities for melee that other games do not

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Not really it is a troll who posts topics that can't be changed

 

You either have no ranged classes (which will never happen) or you nerf ranged classes completely (which again will never happen)

 

Every single game has this issue, EVERY game

 

At least this game has some gap closers and longer then melee range abilities for melee that other games do not

 

Just one example: Make the Boardings Party Final Boss Missile PBAoE spell have a minimum targeting range. Issue fixed. Mechanic intended still in palce: Ranged can not stack up.

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At least this game has some gap closers and longer then melee range abilities for melee that other games do not

Scoundrels gap closer and ranged abilities come down to: Flurry of Bolts, which can hardly compete with ranged DPS ... (i.e. NO gap closer)

 

To add onto that, every boss has a 50 yard stealth aggro range, making stealth useless in all FPs/Ops.

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Jedi Shadow Infiltrators do have the ability to get an ability which reduces AOE damage by 30%, but I think your point is correct that in many cases the AOE damage is fairly massive and intended to be avoided totally. Too much of the AOE is centered on the enemy and I believe that is part of the problem. There should be more "ranged" AOE attacks, some of which in fact CAN NOT be cast directly next to the boss itself, to make things more even.
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I agree with you to some extent (melee gets put "in the fire" more often); however, ranged also has issues with having to move out of the fire, thus interrupting whatever they were casting (which is usually most of our big ticket items).

 

I think it's balanced fairly evenly (I play BH/Assassin/Trooper), but I can see how others might not think so.

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I get your point, and it is true that we have no solid data yet, but: Every raid/group leader who has tried those encounters above with a melee DPS-heavy setup, knows what im talking about. The encounters are considerably harder, and I believe this shouldn't be the case. So from your post, I gather that you haven't tried the hard-mode FPs and Ops yet, maybe you should wait to see those in such a group.

On one hand, I can understand where you're coming from and no I haven't done the hard-mode FPs and Ops yet. I certainly intend to however. Playing melee is always harder, but seriously in SWTOR I find it much easier than in most games. I'd be all for some future raid/group content that is aimed to be extra challenging for ranged DPS, what I do not however want to see is Melee DPS buffed as some sort of reward for the challenging(ish) nature of Melee DPS play in raids. This is every bit as much of a problem as developers dramatically rehashing classes due to PvP conflicts. If the issue is FPs/Ops then I would hope that any solutions are focused on those areas of play.

 

The image of the crappy ranged DPS player who stands in the pool of (X/Y bad stuff in a raid encounter) is something all of us who have played basically any past MMO has engrained in our heads. This is an issue of playstyle and in more than one game I've played that stigma urged people not to invite "Huntards" (or the ranged DPS equivalent) on raid events. I really don't know that there's an issue unless people have actual problems downing bosses with Melee DPS groups.

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I thought we solved this argument in WoW general forums 7 years ago...

 

Stop with that point already, just because this issue might have existed in WoW also, doesnt mean its not an issue still, and should be addressed. Or should we just roll over?

 

Infact tho, I was a member in a rather successful raiding guild in WoW, and the truth is that skilled rogues and warriors were on par with ranged in terms of DPS, because yes, their DPS while on target was slightly higher, which evens out because they have to move around more and position themself. Additionally, again, warriors and rogues had more abilities (not just gap closers, but self-healing, evasion, etc. talents) to alleviate the effect of AE damage. So stop with it already.

Edited by Perlexia
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Also, in terms of group make up for bosses and such, it's best to be able to have some flexibility in your raid groups.

 

I think you say this, just because it's the nice thing to say about a raid or a game. I've seen this issue in another MMO(and im sure it happens in dozens). Make casters too weak and they feel like buff bots. . .make them too strong and you have all caster raids/epics.

 

But having that ability to range everything needs to be taken into account.

 

I kinda agree with the more DPS part, but give us a debuff when in PvP(like they do with healing) to make things balanced.

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