I''d like to hold a place where we can have thorough discussion based upon the Marauder spec of the Sith Warrior. Hopefully we can keep this relatively troll free, to allow people to come and ask questions and get the answers they need.

I''m hoping this will become a community based guide, to allow people to come to the forums, and get an idea of where to go, how to start. Please remember this is a work in progress, and all feedback will be compiled and added later on.

General

Q How does rage work?

A Rage works off of certain abilities. Assault will be your primary rage generation source, while later levels will include charge, as well as Battering Assault at level 10.

Q What form for what spec? (Answer below from Eleftheria)

A Annihlation->Juyo

Carnage-> Ataru

Rage-> Shii Cho

Q Where, and how do I learn my (sic)specialization/advanced training?

A After you have completed your class mission, you''ll be able to head off planet. When you reach the imperial station, you''ll be able to interact with Lord Lokar. He will then allow you to interact with Lord Krimyn who will offer you training. It is very important that you choose carefully, there is currently no way in game to change your Advanced training after it is chosen. If you want to have the ability to tank you must choose Juggernaut. If you want to be strictly dps, then choose marauder.

Q Help! I went marauder but I dont have a secondary weapon!

A If you choose marauder you will be given a bag-pack, that doesn''t light up in your inventory. When you open it, it will give you your offhand weapon.

Q I''m attacking, but my character isn''t doing anything / Animations stop.

A A majority of players may have come from previous MMO''s that had a queue system. That is, you''d input commands and they''d execute whenever the next GCD is available. This game is animation based, without a command queue. So if your move hasn''t completed, by trying to to do something else you''ll lose time and more importantly, dps. This makes rotation, and moves even more important, because you can lock yourself out of damage if you button mash. - Edit. From prelaunch to launch, they added in a adjustable queue timer. I''ve found that setting it for the highest value has fixed a lot of my stolen animation / attacks that were being eaten. Which is a tremendous fix. I''ll post where you can find this later.

EDIT You will continue to experience the lag / character lag issues that are plaguing melee no matter how high you set queue. Its a server side problem, and animations will continue to be eaten until Bioware fixes the problem.

Q Whats currently the best end game spec? (This is subjective, and going off what I recommend. Everyone has their own theories. Mine just seem to work better ^_^)

A Currently a heavy Rage build seems to be coming out ahead in purely DPS -PVE content. RAGE2.1 (New and Shiny!).

EDIT For Jugg's Rager! would be what I would use for maximum effect. (free force screams 30% increase smash + lcd)

EDIT I'd be rather ill advised if I didn't point people toward another great thread detailing the other spec's. KIBA GUIDE TO THE GALAXY Remember to always bring your towel.

Q What are my stat priorities as a Marauder.

A Current SEP has Marauders as follows. STR; Accuracy 110%; Crit 30% - Surge 90%; Power. (Edit) Accuracy is your go to stat for bypassing dodge / parry. 110% Guarantee's main hand specials. 115% Main hand white hits.

Currently, I've updated numbers to reflect soft cap numbers for rage. Im still basing crit higher until 30% then surge to 90% after which stack power, due to the nature of the beast.

Q How do I make Vette romance me?

A Vette is a big proponent of getting paid, as well as not bowing to anyone. The more you shock her, the less she will like you. She also loves polished stones / underworld items. In order to progress her storyline, you have to remove her shock collar, and not murder innocents around her.

(1) Update - The current levels of affection for storyline progression with Vette so far are. 1000 - 1600 -2000 -2600. At 2600 I got a quest for the Star. Be forewarned. The end fight is against a 29 gold, with silver henchman. Be prepared with a high end med kit.

(2) Update - I've got 7k affection with Vette, and nothing is happening? Did I break something? Currently companions work in phases. You unlock what options your companion has along with story content. I noticed the second wave of Crew quests after I had become a Sith lord. So if you want to progress your companion, you need to progress your own storyline.

Q What should my rotation be?! (Updated)

A Still working on rotation for end game. The following rotations are for a RAGE build.

(Till 20) (Silver / Gold) Charge to generate rage, then rupture - ravage - battering assault - smash - vicious.

Groups - you''d want Charge - Smash - Battering. (To be honest, if you''re equal level, and using Vette most groups unless they have a silver or gold, should be dead by that point, due to her massive aoe)

20+ Charge+3r, rupture, ravage, battering, oblit, smash - double assault start over.

25+ Charge+3r, force choke +4r, smash -3R, Rupture -2r, Ravage, BA +6r, Obliterate -3r =3r

After this it becomes a priority system for whats available, to what you can use. I've also begun to discount the use of Rupture by this point. If you can afford it cool, but eventually we wont have a place in rotation for it.

Obviously if FC is coming off cooldown, you''ll want to oblit FC then smash

I dont change much from 25+ to 35, as you dont get a new toy until 40.

40+ Charge +3r, Battering Assault +6r, Force crush -4r, Smash -3r, ravage, Assault +2r, Obliterate -3r, BA +6R, Scream -3r, Force Choke +4R, Smash-3r, Then priority.

50 Potential Rotation. Will revise later if everything doesn't work correctly.

Charge +3r, Battering +6r, Force Crush -4r, Scream -3r, Smash -1r, Ravage, Assault +2r, Obliterate -3r, Force Choke +4r, Smash -1r, Scream -3r. =0r Battering +6r, Assault +2r, Oblit -3r, Crush -4r, (Smash as soon as the 2 tick hits from Crush) Smash -1r, (if boss that doesn't stop movement then ) move to 10m charge +3r, ravage, smash -1r (if done correctly will be a 75% imp damage crit smash)

The second round if you are doing a boss, and dont want to clip your Crush, would be a force choke, now, choke is a solid way to generate rage, even if your dps drops in this phase. If concerned clip at 3 stacks.

Now at 40, I've been playing with hitting smash after the second tick from Force Crush goes off. Clipping in this manner lets me get a 3 charge in before smash eats the charge, then ticks to 3 again for the next smash. (You can keep up the buff via ravage) If wondering, just extend yourself out during the duration of force choke, by using assault, or if an abundance of rage, due to missed rotation scream.

When you can, or want to get that extra huge crit in - replace Crush with Choke then oblit and smash. By clipping as I have done so above, You can almost guarantee every smash in your one minute rotation is going to be a crit with at least 75% increased damage.

Q I''ve got this companion, but they don''t really do anything?

A You need to update your companions gear - at around 18, My vette with double rating 44 blasters was tearing through things. Also make sure that you open up your companion''s tool bar, and click on the new abilities. After all, if you don''t enable them, your companion wont use them.

Q Help. I'm always dead! I go down faster then a droid at a Jawa half off sale!

A A couple of things for you to consider.

(1) (lvl3) Saberward. This is your first defensive cooldown, excellent for raising up your defensive abilities for twelve seconds. (3MCD)

(2) (lvl10) Cloak of Pain. The secondary cooldown at level 10 for a Marauder. This gives you a DS(Damage Shield) as well as 20% less damage taken for six seconds. (1MCD)

(3) (lvl14) Call on the Force. This will kick in a HoT (Heal over time) that will tick for a small percentage of health for one minute, as well as restore Saberward. (Requires a companion) (1HRCD)

(4) (lvl26) Obfuscate. Obscures an enemies ability to hit you by 90% for six seconds. (1 AP - 1MCD)

(5) (lvl38) Undying Rage. Sac 50% of your health for 99% Damage reduction for 5 seconds. (1.5MCD -1MCD Talented)

I often times when fighting gold / silver mobs together, solo with my prefered companion Vette will start with an immediate Obfuscate. Followed by saber ward when I'm around 75% health. As Saberward starts to drop, I'll med pack and Cloak of pain. If Im still in trouble I'll use my emergency oh crap button call on the force, and saberward again.

Finally if you need that last bit of staying power. You can always use Undying Rage once you're toward mid game, as an emergency of emergencies button.

In the course of a minute you'll have 24 seconds of increased defensive abilities. 20% damage reduction for 6 seconds. 90% chance of being missed for 5 seconds, and if need be 5 seconds of almost complete damage immunity.

So in a minute time if you really need to. You'll have some sort of defensive ability up for over forty seconds.

More will be added, but please feel free to give feedback, trolls and flames will be reported. Thanks!

The Rage tree is currently best end game PVE tree. That's all I posted. I'll be continuing to update this thread more and more, as it's a work in progress.

To answer your question. The Shii-cho Form, with armor penetration, will allow for harder hitting attacks. The problem with bleeds are, we arent a primarily bleed based class. So, with armor pen always gaining in it's value as armor values go up. It helps surpass other specs.

As for Crit or endurance. Always get Crit.

To answer the difference between Carnage, and others. When you're fifty, a similar geared Rage Maruader will be out performing Carnage and Annihilation. It's just the synergy of the tree, and assuming perfect rotation for optimal dps.

Annihilation comes close, but the problem is rupture dosent scale as well as it should, it may be fixed, so the more gear you get, the more direct damage will scale, versus bleeds. Bleeds ignoring armor all together, but the advantage is going to be arp (armor penetration)

I'll get the math done later, but the basic idea for top end damage, is abilities at 50 to their rage costs and cooldowns. However, the other large difference is, is the ability to cumulatively stack powers / abilities. Smash once it's at 4 stack, is one of our best damage to rage abilities. Along with the additional 30% it gets further in the tree to enhance it.

Again. I'll be posting more as I come, and will try to keep up with everyone. But post your feedback with numbers, not just feelings if you can. And remember skill, and managing animations to abilities will also help your damage increase tremendously, due to no current ability queuing.

The Rage tree is currently best end game PVE tree. That's all I posted. I'll be continuing to update this thread more and more, as it's a work in progress.

To answer your question. The Shii-cho Form, with armor penetration, will allow for harder hitting attacks. The problem with bleeds are, we arent a primarily bleed based class. So, with armor pen always gaining in it's value as armor values go up. It helps surpass other specs.

As for Crit or endurance. Always get Crit.

To answer the difference between Carnage, and others. When you're fifty, a similar geared Rage Maruader will be out performing Carnage and Annihilation. It's just the synergy of the tree, and assuming perfect rotation for optimal dps.

Annihilation comes close, but the problem is rupture dosent scale as well as it should, it may be fixed, so the more gear you get, the more direct damage will scale, versus bleeds. Bleeds ignoring armor all together, but the advantage is going to be arp (armor penetration)

 

I'll get the math done later, but the basic idea for top end damage, is abilities at 50 to their rage costs and cooldowns. However, the other large difference is, is the ability to cumulatively stack powers / abilities. Smash once it's at 4 stack, is one of our best damage to rage abilities. Along with the additional 30% it gets further in the tree to enhance it.

 

Again. I'll be posting more as I come, and will try to keep up with everyone. But post your feedback with numbers, not just feelings if you can. And remember skill, and managing animations to abilities will also help your damage increase tremendously, due to no current ability queuing.

Really seems like you're making your claim based purely on speculation.

Really? I thought Rage tree would be the best for PvP due to all the slow-impairing effects + the major crit bonuses. I mean crit is good for pve but the slow impairing effects aren't necessarily needed.

That's exactly how I view the Rage tree. The boost to smash looks nice when you fight large groups of mobs, but when you are fighting a single boss I don't really see the point in spending all those points on movement impairments just to get the boost.

However, I would like to see what a Rage build can do in PvP.

Not really making things based on speculation, but based on ramp up time. Smash has a ramp up time, it is an effective attack. As for rage and its movement imparing effects.. Did you even look at the build? As for smash. yes its logical to have in the dps rotation, because of the guaranteed crit, and due to the 130% extra damage.

If you're going to call speculation, look at how talents build together, and give more then anecdotal evidence. Also, if you've missed it Force crush base is 302 damage per second over 5 seconds, then 802. It's the strongest ability we have for it's cooldown. Mind you, it also benefits from Dark Res.

Finally, if you believe that moment increases are bad, then you really have no clue on what higher uptime on a target is, and how we very well have to change and move to different targets. Rage on a whole, has the ability to have higher uptime then almost any other melee based class.

Not really making things based on speculation, but based on ramp up time. Smash has a ramp up time, it is an effective attack. As for rage and its movement imparing effects.. Did you even look at the build? As for smash. yes its logical to have in the dps rotation, because of the guaranteed crit, and due to the 130% extra damage.

 

If you're going to call speculation, look at how talents build together, and give more then anecdotal evidence. Also, if you've missed it Force crush base is 302 damage per second over 5 seconds, then 802. It's the strongest ability we have for it's cooldown. Mind you, it also benefits from Dark Res.

 

Finally, if you believe that moment increases are bad, then you really have no clue on what higher uptime on a target is, and how we very well have to change and move to different targets. Rage on a whole, has the ability to have higher uptime then almost any other melee based class.

See, this comes off as you looking at the talents and speculating their potential. Yes, 100% crit on one of our moves is great, but it's one move. Annihilation has a bunch of bleeds, the damage over time will surely make it number one spec! Carnage has a lot of burst, it will surely be the number one spec!

Rage has a lot of good talents, but this thread hasn't proven its viability in pve at all. Until we have numbers from a lot of level 50s, speculation is all you or me have. And I happen to disagree with you.

...

Q Whats currently the best end game spec?

A Currently a heavy Rage build seems to be coming out ahead in purely DPS -PVE content. 2/8/31 seems to be the most effective.

...

Nice guide, thanks for putting it together!

I have one question about the spec. More specifically, how it is being measured. How do you know that any spec is ahead of any other without any sort of damage meters or combat log? Or is there some way to pull that data that I don't know about?

Using basic measure of theory craft. That is the ability to gauge how things perform in a perfect rotation. You can craft the basis of what would do the best dps, based upon cooldowns, modifiers, base line sep. (Strength equivalency points) and build a basis of what will perform better.

Currently the model is pointing at Rage as being the highest dps tree available, with carnage being last, and annihilation being middle to upper end. I dont want to point at any specific mmo. But the general idea is that theory crafting is what helps build the highest yield spec's. As for speculation, I wont deny the fact that speculation plays a part, but a majority of mathematics also works in favor of this.

If all things being equal, of 99.9% uptime on a target, then Rage will have a 10-13% lead on Annihilation, while maintaining a huge 30+ point lead over Carnage.

Using basic measure of theory craft. That is the ability to gauge how things perform in a perfect rotation. You can craft the basis of what would do the best dps, based upon cooldowns, modifiers, base line sep. (Strength equivalency points) and build a basis of what will perform better.

 

Currently the model is pointing at Rage as being the highest dps tree available, with carnage being last, and annihilation being middle to upper end. I dont want to point at any specific mmo. But the general idea is that theory crafting is what helps build the highest yield spec's. As for speculation, I wont deny the fact that speculation plays a part, but a majority of mathematics also works in favor of this.

 

If all things being equal, of 99.9% uptime on a target, then Rage will have a 10-13% lead on Annihilation, while maintaining a huge 30+ point lead over Carnage.

A few things. First of all, could you post these models you are talking about? Second, do they include the 20% chance or 50% chance for Ataru procs on all melee attacks for a Carnage build? If you don't include the Ataru proc damage, I can see Carnage being far behind, but with it it should be right up there. Third, I think you should change some things in your proposed build. Take the 2 points out of Relentless Fury. You are going to be using Berserk much more often. Put those into Gravity and Undying. Then, I would take the 3 out of Narrowed Hatred, not because it's not awesome, but because I think those 3 points synergize much better if put into capping Enraged Slash and Quick Recovery. You will almost never run out of Rage, meaning instead of using Assault, you are spamming Vicious Slashes after your big Smash crit.

I think the 3% accuracy (or in this case hit) is far better freeing up stats at end game. Free hit is basically free hit. Whats better, in this game system if you push past 100% it's effectively armor penetration, so it scales dramatically upward in how much more damage you can inflict. Ergo it benefits Shii-Cho mastery more.

Accuracy Chance that melee attacks will successfully hit the target. Accuracy over 100% reduces the target's defense.

I can't see how you wouldn't want to bypass as much of your targets defenses as possible? I get the shorter cooldowns, but I think the 3% continues to exponentially grow as your character progresses.

Theoretically we could move the points from Enraged Slash over, but I don't believe that the cooldown lessened outweighs the points in potential rpm (rage per minute) generation of a Marauder.

I'll get around to posting my stuff eventually, however I'm busy leveling, so I'm doing mostly napkin math at work, then posting what I can, when I can. Otherwise a very thorough chart for how things bake down to real numbers will be a while to come.

As it is, I see what you're saying with the synergy, but I'm pushing towards a more armor ignoring build to maximize effective up time of both white swings, and our abilities.

The real problem with Carnage is, it's very similar to a WoW Arms warrior currently. It's great during Gore, but lackluster outside of it. You've got to watch for a Gore cooldown, then dump everything you can during that window, then build up for the next Gore. The Ataru form attacks, are very lackluster, and too fish-esque for a static build. Any time I have to hope and pray for a proc to even out my damage, it's bad times.

Carnage is insanely bursty, don't get me wrong, if your stars align, you can roll face. But it's not good sustainable dps. Execute would need around a 50% proc chance - Massacre needs to be an additional baseline Ataru form proc increase, and Ataru form need's its baseline damage increased by about 20% and then it'll pull ahead, to be our top dps tree.

That's just my two cents. I could be wrong, I may very well be wrong. But it wont be shown until the math is broken down on all three spec's and I just dont have the time to do it in depth. For the moment however, Carnage is a lucky seven build, but the dealer keeps coming up with ones.

What does a rage spec marauder have over a rage spec jugg?

This is something I still really want to know.

The idea of a "simple" straight up PvE DPS spec is very appealing.

But I worry that playing a rage marauder means you're basically a gimpy juggernaut.