Sins/Shadows first

#buffmyclass #nerfyours #screwhealers

But didnt you know? We already have defensives just as good!

/sarcasm if it wasnt obvious

It all balanced out before the outfit tabs were introduced.

If they removed the outfit system, we'd be the only guys in the warzones with cool/scary outfits. People would be so intimidated that they wouldn't attack us, and we wouldn't need defenses.

#getridoftheoutfitsystem

Merc DCDs? No, please never. In fact vengeance juggs only need a no-focus skill or perhaps more baseline DR to tank all the focus. They are actually almost in a middle spot right now. Rage juggs needs the same DR as vengeance.

Sins on the other hands are in sore need of an anti-focus and some healing. Particular something to counter net.

Mercs could stand to lose a DCDs, but they also to get a bit of their former DPS back.

Sorcs needs to more dps, and they need something to survive better in ranked.

PTs needs to be redesigned...

Maras, mercs, opers and snipers are viable in most specs (most, not all).

There, classes rebalanced

 

Mercs could stand to lose a DCDs, but they also to get a bit of their former DPS back.

 

That. It's a shame this forum doesn't have a like function.

Merc DCDs are in need of a nerf, but during the last round of "balancing" Merc DPS took an unnecessary hit. The devs balanced the wrong thing, and if not for Merc DCDs being so strong it would probably be underperforming.. Merc DPS should go back to where it was pre-nerf, but with it's defenses adjusted so as not to be so tanky.

Merc dcds are OP? Have 3 basically..

Kolto Overload, restore to 35% health. Hmm, Juggs get a whole second life.

Responsive Safeguards: 50% reflect for 6 whole seconds! DOT-Ops have 150% reflect

Energy Shield: 25% DR for 12 seconds. meh, 1:45 cooldown

And can self heal - like every other class except maras

What am I missing?

I think merc/trooper was just so nerfed for so long that once they were made competitive seemed more than it was.

People (myself especially) always complain this or that class is OP. But reality is if you look at the leaderboards no class is ever very over-represented.

Merc dcds are OP? Have 3 basically..

 

Kolto Overload, restore to 35% health. Hmm, Juggs get a whole second life.

Responsive Safeguards: 50% reflect for 6 whole seconds! DOT-Ops have 150% reflect

Energy Shield: 25% DR for 12 seconds. meh.

And can self heal - like every other class except maras

 

What am I missing?

 

I think merc/trooper was just so nerfed for so long that once they were made competitive seemed more than it was.

 

People (myself especially) always complain this or that class is OP. But reality is if you look at the leaderboards no class is ever very over-represented.

Kolto overload can be talented to 60% and unless you're being heavily focused by 3+ dps will keep you up for its duration, unlike Enraged Defense, which while powerful can be burned through by 2 or 3 dps without too much issue.

Responsive Safeguards (unlike sin reflect and operative reflect, but like jugg reflect) actually absorbs all damage it reflects, it cover the most damage out of all reflects and to boot it heals you when people do attack you. Basically 6 seconds in which it's very hard to die, and if you're playing against somewhat mediocre people, you'll probably get a decent amount of health back too.

Energy shield baseline isn't too impressive, although it compares pretty well with warrior's saber ward. It's less effective against melee/ranged damage, but more effective versus force/tech damage. It can also be talented to heal you at the end based on the amount of attacks you recieve (up to 40% total health).

Merc dcds are OP? Have 3 basically..

 

Kolto Overload, restore to 35% health. Hmm, Juggs get a whole second life.

Responsive Safeguards: 50% reflect for 6 whole seconds! DOT-Ops have 150% reflect

Energy Shield: 25% DR for 12 seconds. meh.

And can self heal - like every other class except maras

 

What am I missing?

 

I think merc/trooper was just so nerfed for so long that once they were made competitive seemed more than it was.

 

People (myself especially) always complain this or that class is OP. But reality is if you look at the leaderboards no class is ever very over-represented.

Actually... you are missing quite a lot. To a point I can't decide if you are really that clueless or trolling intentionally:

Kolto Overroad - heals to 60 with utility. Used to be 80 but got nerfed.

Responsive Safeguards: not just reflect, but a heal too, for the whole duration.

Energy Shield: with utility accumulates stacks that instantly heal after the shield ends

Now do you see it?

Actually... you are missing quite a lot. To a point I can't decide if you are really that clueless or trolling intentionally:

 

Kolto Overroad - heals to 60 with utility. Used to be 80 but got nerfed.

 

Responsive Safeguards: not just reflect, but a heal too, for the whole duration.

 

Energy Shield: with utility accumulates stacks that instantly heal after the shield ends

 

Now do you see it?

No need to turn it into personal attacks there. The KO point is valid. But the gist is still true - each ability has a similar analog in another class. And other classes have other compensating survival abilities - like stealthing out or leap-to-friendly

the gist is still true - each ability has a similar analog in another class. And other classes have other compensating survival abilities - like stealthing out or leap-to-friendly

Maybe you can have analogs and compensations for a single ability. But we are talking about 3 separate abilities here. That's a lot to compensate. And the only way to counter is pretty much to leave merc alone. Which among the chaos of wz is not that simple. And the merc will not leave you alone while you wait for his defense to end.

Honestly, just try it. Roll a merc if you haven't one, pick all the right utilities, then head into the most heated place in wz and see, what happens.

No need to turn it into personal attacks there. The KO point is valid. But the gist is still true - each ability has a similar analog in another class. And other classes have other compensating survival abilities - like stealthing out or leap-to-friendly

It is actually not a personal attack. He is simply wondering if you are a new player or perhaps you have not investigated this properly. There is currently no class that is even remotely comparative to mercs dcds. The fact that some players can be killed easily on a merc is a testament to their lack of skills and not the because the dcds are balanced.

Merc dcds are OP? Have 3 basically..

 

Kolto Overload, restore to 35% health. Hmm, Juggs get a whole second life.

Responsive Safeguards: 50% reflect for 6 whole seconds! DOT-Ops have 150% reflect

Energy Shield: 25% DR for 12 seconds. meh, 1:45 cooldown

And can self heal - like every other class except maras

 

What am I missing?

 

I think merc/trooper was just so nerfed for so long that once they were made competitive seemed more than it was.

 

People (myself especially) always complain this or that class is OP. But reality is if you look at the leaderboards no class is ever very over-represented.

With energy rebounders your energy shield CD gets lowered by 3 secs every time you take damage. The CD for energy shield can be as low as 40 secs plus you get a small passive dcd that goes with it, energy shield is not meh.

With energy rebounders your energy shield CD gets lowered by 3 secs every time you take damage. The CD for energy shield can be as low as 40 secs plus you get a small passive dcd that goes with it, energy shield is not meh.

if you use this ultility you cant use either the trauma regulators or the stun/aoe dr.

juggs dcd's are so weak...just curious why there are so many new juggs in solo ranked on dm lately.

before someone thinks i play merc....nope sin/pt

I totally disagree with OP suggestion.

Juggs are just fine as are mercs. I am talking from ranked arena perspective.

First, jugg tanks are monsters. Crazy control, crazy mobility, crazy damage.

In dps spec, people play mostly vengeance. And I must say properly played vengeance jugg is a monster. What I see is people not using even taunts and then writing crap comments about the spec being bad. And assaulting off heal classes that they won't sacrifice their gcds to keep them up. (While I do agree, that offhealing is awesome, it shouldn't be mandatory to play expecting other classes to basically carry you and if they don't insult them.) Another thing I see good juggs doing and bad ones not, is using mobility! Good juggs don't just farm AoE, die in the same spot they jumped in and then qq that they got focused. They use little tricks like: Getting Unremitting as often as they can. Mezzing / slowing a group of enemies and jumping to a different dps, staying out of reach of other meelee by using the same - AoE slow + mobility. Some kite very nicely.

Even the less skilled jugg that die rather soon can do so much damage with their AoE that their dps is decent in the end.

Mercs have been nerfed to ground for so long that everybody got used to them as being basically silver NPC. And with all the talk about how strong they are they can be killed pretty fast if dealt with in the right way. They can be locked down way better then juggs. What you need to do is: Not single attack them when they pop reflect (I think they still get damage from AoE if they didn't remove it recently), Ideally you want to Mezz them while they have it popped and leave them be. A few seconds later, you can come in again, and force them to pop kolto. And have some brain when dealing with the shield. If they specced for it, decide if you want to burn through it. If there are 2+ enemies on a merc, the chances are that they can burn through the shield before it pops. And even if the merc force-pops it, they won't get as much healing from it and they are letting the 25% dr go.

It all boils down to how well you can use what you have. And counter what the enemy has.

Another angle could be that Merc healer is considered unsuitable for higher level ranked (can perform well in synced group and with support though imo, but that's circumstantial), DoT spec is practically unheard of in ranked and so the only competitive spec is arsenal.

Juggs have tank completely capable of reaching top tier, dps that with some brain can go high aswell. People don't play jugg smash too much so I can't comment on that.

I totally disagree with OP suggestion.

 

Juggs are just fine as are mercs. I am talking from ranked arena perspective.

Tanks are perfectly fine yes, but both DPS specs are somewhat behind most other classes. The only reason someone like me can make it semi-work, is because the general skill level in this game is subpar. When I run into mercs, maras, snipers and even ops that know their class as well as I know jugg, the difference in class survivability is evident. Yes bad mercs will explode, but so will any class played by an inexperienced player, like me on a sniper .

The most simple fix would be to give both DPS specs the invisibility skill from tank, while also giving Rage the same DR as vengeance. I inheriently think it's wrong to give juggs an anti-focus skill (let them be meat shields), and with invisibility skill they could survive a bit longer.

Tanks are perfectly fine yes, but both DPS specs are somewhat behind most other classes. The only reason someone like me can make it semi-work, is because the general skill level in this game is subpar. When I run into mercs, maras, snipers and even ops that know their class as well as I know jugg, the difference in class survivability is evident. Yes bad mercs will explode, but so will any class played by an inexperienced player, like me on a sniper .

 

The most simple fix would be to give both DPS specs the invisibility skill from tank, while also giving Rage the same DR as vengeance. I inheriently think it's wrong to give juggs an anti-focus skill (let them be meat shields), and with invisibility skill they could survive a bit longer.

What "invisibility skill"? Maras have camo - is that what you mean?

What "invisibility skill"? Maras have camo - is that what you mean?

Invincible from Immortal spec. Sorry, brain not working.

Invincible from Immortal spec. Sorry, brain not working.

So another DCD for dps spec? Warding call is a flat 40% DR (compared to the 25% force/tech and 50% increased defense rating from saber ward). Not to mention its yet another long CD ability.

For dps this would be either overtuned - see mercs - or do nothing for the underlying focus issue because of the long CD.

I suggest something more like an improved reflect - make it reflect all single target direct damage and if they feel its necessary make the visibility more obvious. Reflect is supposed to be our anti-focus tool anyway (and it can't serve this function currently because its far to easy to simply tunnel through), and since it doesn't heal us, it would hardly be merc level overtuned.

A buddy of mine has another suggestion involving FD but any increased healing in this meta is going to cause the community to flip.

Also, if you take a tank skill from the tank tree, what are you putting there to replace it for tanks?

So another DCD for dps spec? Warding call is a flat 40% DR (compared to the 25% force/tech and 50% increased defense rating from saber ward). Not to mention its yet another long CD ability.

 

For dps this would be either overtuned - see mercs - or do nothing for the underlying focus issue because of the long CD.

 

I suggest something more like an improved reflect - make it reflect all single target direct damage and if they feel its necessary make the visibility more obvious. Reflect is supposed to be our anti-focus tool anyway (and it can't serve this function currently because its far to easy to simply tunnel through), and since it doesn't heal us, it would hardly be merc level overtuned.

 

A buddy of mine has another suggestion involving FD but any increased healing in this meta is going to cause the community to flip.

 

Also, if you take a tank skill from the tank tree, what are you putting there to replace it for tanks?

My perspective is strictly for sranked, and for that it would not be over-tuned. It would force the opposing team to maybe pick a different target, if they reckon the jugg will now take too long to kill.

Reflect could also be made to work. With a much lower CD, and with the ability to use it while stunned, it could work I guess.

As for the Invincible-skill I merely meant that DPS juggs should also have it. I would not remove it or change it from tanks.

But... all of this is pointless speculation. I have not heard anything about class changes coming soon, and the devs have never bothered to listen its player base anyway.

My perspective is strictly for sranked, and for that it would not be over-tuned. It would force the opposing team to maybe pick a different target, if they reckon the jugg will now take too long to kill.

 

Reflect could also be made to work. With a much lower CD, and with the ability to use it while stunned, it could work I guess.

 

As for the Invincible-skill I merely meant that DPS juggs should also have it. I would not remove it or change it from tanks.

 

But... all of this is pointless speculation. I have not heard anything about class changes coming soon, and the devs have never bothered to listen its player base anyway.

Safe bet would be they won't effect any class changes until 6.0, the classes always get changed around a bit [buff/nerf/utilities/dps rankings etc.]. As terrible as the class balance has been and how it was a source of contention, I doubt they will want to do anything change wise until they have to/. We all became a bit gun-shy every time they announces class changes and we all held our breaths to see which spec BW was going to eviscerate this time. Long as 6.0 isn't too long in the making, they'll probably just wait til than.

5.x - Worst Meta ever.

My perspective is strictly for sranked, and for that it would not be over-tuned. It would force the opposing team to maybe pick a different target, if they reckon the jugg will now take too long to kill.

 

Reflect could also be made to work. With a much lower CD, and with the ability to use it while stunned, it could work I guess.

 

As for the Invincible-skill I merely meant that DPS juggs should also have it. I would not remove it or change it from tanks.

 

But... all of this is pointless speculation. I have not heard anything about class changes coming soon, and the devs have never bothered to listen its player base anyway.

You say lower CD - the CD on warding call is 2.5 min, just like saber ward. The CD on reflect is 60s. so 5 s every 60 s or 15 s every 2.5 min - reflect is the better anti-focus IF it actually reflected stuff.

Also - nothing about warding call or saber ward make anyone not focus you. Heck FD doesn't make anyone not focus you in a 2 or more people on you situation.

Reflect makes them switch to a damage type that doesnt get reflected, aoe, or eat the damage.

Basically 5/60 = 1/12 with an actual anti-focus purpose

15/150 = 1/10 with no actual anti-focus function

Also what i mean is that currently warding call is something of the pentarch skill of the guardian tank discupline - if it became a guardian base ability, what replaces this as our final active skill?

You say lower CD - the CD on warding call is 2.5 min, just like saber ward. The CD on reflect is 60s. so 5 s every 60 s or 15 s every 2.5 min - reflect is the better anti-focus IF it actually reflected stuff.

 

Also - nothing about warding call or saber ward make anyone not focus you. Heck FD doesn't make anyone not focus you in a 2 or more people on you situation.

 

Reflect makes them switch to a damage type that doesnt get reflected, aoe, or eat the damage.

 

Basically 5/60 = 1/12 with an actual anti-focus purpose

15/150 = 1/10 with no actual anti-focus function

 

Also what i mean is that currently warding call is something of the pentarch skill of the guardian tank discupline - if it became a guardian base ability, what replaces this as our final active skill?

*shrugs*

Are there any point in discussing this? My only real point is that DPS juggs needs something to make us survive a bit longer - especially rage. Talking about the specifics are meaningless as those with the power to change this will never care to ask us.