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Vanguard: Tanking and You


Zerophin's Avatar


Zerophin
01.12.2012 , 09:28 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Escaflownae View Post

However you raise a good point that I might want to try going further into the other trees to look at the performance of the hybrids.
Fair enough, and I realize you're not done yet with the guide.

To be nit-picky a "Gut" build isn't hybrid as the goal isn't to give up some tanking to gain some DPS. Every relevant tanking talent is selected with the only material change being replacing Energy Blast with Gut.

Thanks for the effort!

Escaflownae's Avatar


Escaflownae
01.12.2012 , 09:38 AM | #22
I was actually thinking about doing a 20/20/20 layout kind of thing. Now granted that wouldn't be the numbers but I see tanking talents in every tree making them all kind of robust. My thing is I never like to not try something. If I see a skill that might not appear that great I'll still use it a bunch until I can prove it's not a good skill for either my spec or play style.
Courage is not the absence of fear, but the strength to do what is right in the face of it.

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Zerophin's Avatar


Zerophin
01.12.2012 , 09:46 AM | #23
Here is my "back of the envelope" math:

Energy Blast:

Average Base Damage = 758
Intimidation Modifier = 45
Blaster Augs Modifier = 23

Total Damage = 826


Gut:

Average Base Damage = 651
Frontline Offense Modifier = 39
Internal Damage (DoT) = 784
Blaster Augs Modifier (DoT) = 24

Total Damage over 15s = 1,497*

*I'm making a conservative assumption absent testing that Frontline Offense only impacts the "front end" damage on Gut. I'm also only applying Blaster Augs to the DoT (Internal)


Now the two key questions:

1 - Do you plan to use E-blast more than once in a 15 second window?

2 - Do you care about the energy return feature in E-blast?


In my opinion (need to test obviously) the energy return isn't material enough to justify the loss in damage (threat) in scenarios where E-Blast is used once every 15 seconds. I don't know that you really buy yourself the ability to string in another ability due to the return (if so then obviously the value increases for E-Blast.)

Secondly, even if you use E-Blast every say 10 seconds you can still clip Gut in before the DoT fully expires and potentially stay ahead.


Thanks again, good discussion.

Escaflownae's Avatar


Escaflownae
01.12.2012 , 10:04 AM | #24
If you go on a skill>hs>skill / 1:1 rotation I'm not so sure the damage loss from using eb over gut would be acceptable. Meaning that with the ammo return from eb in that rotation it's almost useless so the point of the skill is null.
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ururururu's Avatar


ururururu
01.12.2012 , 10:10 AM | #25
noob question -- (my vanguard's only 40) -- what about riot strike reduction?

Escaflownae's Avatar


Escaflownae
01.12.2012 , 10:16 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by ururururu View Post
noob question -- (my vanguard's only 40) -- what about riot strike reduction?
It's early am here and I'm not sure I'm following what your asking.
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Escaflownae's Avatar


Escaflownae
01.12.2012 , 10:20 AM | #27
If you are talking about Front line Defense that reduces the cool down of riot strike I'd say that is pretty much your call. As a tank you are not really expected to be doing the interrupts yet most of the time we are the only ones left in the group that can do them.

I'd say if you are going for gut then grab the extra two or even one point in Front line defense because a faster interrupts is never a bad thing.
Courage is not the absence of fear, but the strength to do what is right in the face of it.

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Escaflownae's Avatar


Escaflownae
01.12.2012 , 10:23 AM | #28
Throwing some talents around you could do this.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801GMGrborouZMsrbo.1

This will give you your gut and a very good interrupt however you will be losing out on two points into shield chance thus reducing your shield chance to only +8% instead of 10% yet that can be easily picked up from gear if this is the way you wanted to go.
Courage is not the absence of fear, but the strength to do what is right in the face of it.

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Darguth's Avatar


Darguth
01.12.2012 , 10:40 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Zerophin View Post
Here is my "back of the envelope" math:

Energy Blast:

Average Base Damage = 758
Intimidation Modifier = 45
Blaster Augs Modifier = 23

Total Damage = 826


Gut:

Average Base Damage = 651
Frontline Offense Modifier = 39
Internal Damage (DoT) = 784
Blaster Augs Modifier (DoT) = 24

Total Damage over 15s = 1,497*

*I'm making a conservative assumption absent testing that Frontline Offense only impacts the "front end" damage on Gut. I'm also only applying Blaster Augs to the DoT (Internal)


Now the two key questions:

1 - Do you plan to use E-blast more than once in a 15 second window?

2 - Do you care about the energy return feature in E-blast?


In my opinion (need to test obviously) the energy return isn't material enough to justify the loss in damage (threat) in scenarios where E-Blast is used once every 15 seconds. I don't know that you really buy yourself the ability to string in another ability due to the return (if so then obviously the value increases for E-Blast.)

Secondly, even if you use E-Blast every say 10 seconds you can still clip Gut in before the DoT fully expires and potentially stay ahead.


Thanks again, good discussion.
I think one thing you're greatly underestimating is that the difference between EB and Gut is not simply +1 Ammo for that damage trade-off. It's +3 Ammo because Gut costs 2. That very easily allows one to take better advantage of Static Shield procs as well as maintaining your Static Field debuff with Ion Pulse without the need to incorrectly prioritize IP over a higher threat/damage ability like SS or HIB. The additional high-damage abilities you can use with the Ammo return pretty easily make-up for the damage differential, if not completely surpass it.

Also, one should factor in the Ammo returns and how that affects multi-target threat rotations which are of a higher ratio of ammo consumption.

I'm not saying the EB is the clear-cut winner for a tanking ability (though I think it is better overall, personally), but I think doing a simple damage comparison isn't seeing the full picture.

Zerophin's Avatar


Zerophin
01.12.2012 , 10:42 AM | #30
I find that the Riot Strike CD is acceptable and not worth investing shortening the cool down via talents. There are just way too many other useful things to spend your points on and candidly you shouldn't be the only one tasked to use interrupts. Bear in mind Cryo Grenade does the job too in a pinch.