Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Tanking: A Primer


Methoxa's Avatar


Methoxa
01.13.2014 , 06:09 AM | #101
Honestly a tank who looses aggro to a healer is a very bad tank. But i also see tanks in fps who just single target one mob until it is dead while the healer (me) tanks 4 or 5 mobs. In every mmorpg tanks should hit all mobs in order to maintain aggro, but in swtor it seems ppl fail to do so or dont even try to. Kicking the healer because he pulls aggro with healing is the worst solution, bc you wont find a healer who wont when the tank doesnt attack all mobs. Fail tank fail grp.

The dulfy guide is mostly for endgame content but can also be helpful for fps. But you as a healer shouldnt be the one reading it, but the fail tanks you meet in fps. Even if you try to tell them in a nice way their answer is rude. The game is too hard for them but instead of leaving the game they troll you in fps. I have a little knowledge about tanking, my mainchar is a juggernaut tank, which is the worst aoe threat tanking class but still with a juggernaut its faceroll holding aggro against the healer even without saber reflect.
Revanchist

Nuald's Avatar


Nuald
01.13.2014 , 03:25 PM | #102
Quote: Originally Posted by Methoxa View Post
In every mmorpg tanks should hit all mobs in order to maintain aggro, but in swtor it seems ppl fail to do so or dont even try to.
In SWTOR it's pretty easy to steal aggro from a tank. Just hitting won't work, so the tank should run like insane to keep all mobs attacking him. Huge cooldowns on taunts and leaps also not helping. In ideal world dps would wait until the tank establish aggro, also they would drop aggro, but in pugs it barely works. Also geared min/maxed dps can steal aggro even from a good tank because of the insane damage he/she does, for example, my sage literally has to use basic/weak attacks in FP, because FiB crits for 7k dmg to 6 mobs at the same time almost always steal aggro at least for a couple of mobs. Healing even worse (9k crits heals generate a lot of threat).

So, tanking is not easy, and I would recommend to play tanks a little bit more before blaming them. However, I have to admit that many tanks suck (just yesterday was in pugged fp where VG spammed a cryo grenade as almost a main attack). Heavy armor or a double-bladed stick make it very appealing to play those classes (and as a bonus, instant pop in gf), but many players just don't bother to l2p.

Rebel_Guy's Avatar


Rebel_Guy
01.13.2014 , 04:17 PM | #103
Easiest way to maintain aggro is to non stop chain pull, don't ask dps to hold back just quickly run to the next pull as the last one is finishing. Being a global cooldown ahead of everybody makes it completely impossible to take aggro. Also keep track on what aggro is built on what, if a dps sees you chain pulling and is also rushing to next pull just use an opener- keep track of which add they are attacking if it's not yours then taunt when you see aggro lost as you built threat on other add Wither discharge is such a big radius around the target that there is no pull its hard to keep aggro off of heals (if a heal takes threat after those two abilities then the pulls would have to be taking a painfully long time). If you get used to the flashpoints enough you pretty much have every pull memorized and space out cooldowns(defensive and taunts) for specific ones. If you get good at it you can easily carry even the worst groups( honestly can't remember last time a flashpoint was hard to complete even with drooling stupid teamates or healers in rakata gear). Sure it might sound like work, but it appeals to some. As for me personally I still enjoy flashpoints because it's like a puzzle - group things together and maintain aggro on everything. Doing this is what made me love my assassin above all other tanks because it has the most options (knockback and pull, stun, verry effective cooldowns that are short cooldown for times when the healer is one of those slow loaders and I don't want to wait). Powertech has some fun combinations also with running around kiting everything with oilslick slow not taking any damage, I don't play my guardian anymore because its generally just... Save aoe taunt for this pull... Use reflect on next.

Methoxa's Avatar


Methoxa
01.13.2014 , 08:12 PM | #104
Quote: Originally Posted by Nuald View Post
In SWTOR it's pretty easy to steal aggro from a tank. Just hitting won't work, so the tank should run like insane to keep all mobs attacking him.
Tanks have aoe abilities and most mobs are hit by it, you only have to run to the mobs that were not hit. Btw. i wasnt speaking having aggro for like 2 seconds as a healer but i am regularly tanking 3-4 mobs with my healer for the duration of the fight because the tank just ignores them.



Quote: Originally Posted by Nuald View Post
Huge cooldowns on taunts and leaps also not helping.
You dont seem to understand the taunt mechanism of swtor, which is unique in this game. In most mmorpgs you get back to the amount of threat you had before you taunted. But in swtor you taunt when you first loose aggro to a dps and you will stay on that amount even after the taunt wore off. So if you generated 3k threat but a meleedps generated 4k threat that meleedps should have aggro. So you taunt instantly getting the total amount of 4k threat but as taunt is off cd you were able to do your rotation. So you got 1k threat for free. Same works with masstaunt even on single target.

Quote: Originally Posted by Nuald View Post
In ideal world dps would wait until the tank establish aggro, also they would drop aggro, but in pugs it barely works. Also geared min/maxed dps can steal aggro even from a good tank because of the insane damage he/she does, for example, my sage literally has to use basic/weak attacks in FP, because FiB crits for 7k dmg to 6 mobs at the same time almost always steal aggro at least for a couple of mobs. Healing even worse (9k crits heals generate a lot of threat).
In ideal world dps would not wait as in most ops the enrage timers are very tight. Even Styrrak Nim with 78 token gear your dps needs to do 3k+ dps burstopeners with up to 10k dps for 5seconds. You dont have time to let the tank build up aggro. The moment the tank uses his first attack the first orbitalstrikes hit the boss. A healer's threatgeneration is only 50%. Meaning a 9k heal is translated into 4.5k threat. My opener Smash does 3k damage = 6k threat as tanks get 100% threatbonusgeneration. Even if your 9k heal had a 2 second casttime that would mean you had 4.5k hps = 2.25k tps thats perfectly tankable. My opneing rotation = Smash+crushing blow+retaliation+force scream+backhand) does about 21k threat in 6 seconds = 3.5k tps.

Quote: Originally Posted by Nuald View Post
So, tanking is not easy, and I would recommend to play tanks a little bit more before blaming them. However, I have to admit that many tanks suck (just yesterday was in pugged fp where VG spammed a cryo grenade as almost a main attack). Heavy armor or a double-bladed stick make it very appealing to play those classes (and as a bonus, instant pop in gf), but many players just don't bother to l2p.
I think i am in a position to blame bad tanks more than you are in a position to defend them. Some of your arguments show that you are not expertised with "tanking" as i am. My main is a tank doing Hm's and Nm's ( Asation Nm, Darvannis Nm, DF+DP Hm). When i see other tanks underperforming in fp's i try to nicely ask them to hold the mobs away from the healer. Mostly i get back accusations whatsoever. But feedback is the only way to improve oneself. If you think you are a very good tank why would you try to improve? When i started tanking (about 2 years ago in the fp the false imperator) I asked my teammates how my tanking was. After getting mixed feedback i tried to improve to the state where i am at nowadays and that should everyone try to do. But some people just have a narrow view and stay in their little imaginary world and think they are better than the others.

My post might be offensive, most ppl might think that i am egocentric and just posing. I am sorry that my post gave you that idea about me, i am not trying to show off. This topic however is really bugging me, as on my server you rarely find ppl who are capable of succeeding a fp or an op. You explain the boss to them for example Bestia. The first red puddle spawn, 7 people dead...Its annoying and making it impossible for people with the capabilites of becoming a good player to improve and to have a success. I am afraid that the amount of bad players will make the game unbearable for good players, so that they might leave for other games with a playerbase with more skill. Thats however only the recent development on my Server.
Revanchist

Nuald's Avatar


Nuald
01.13.2014 , 09:00 PM | #105
Looks like we have a little misunderstanding. I was referring to pug fp when one can meet a tank with 69 gear and dps with 72+ gear. Those tanks will have hard time due to reasons I said. There is nothing wrong with being not overgeared (however, I see a lot of people overreact for not geared players), but tanks got bashing for not holding aggro. I guess you know that gearing a tank is not easy task (yay, alacrity mods) and bashing for being not geared enough (hence a little bit low tdps) is just not fair.

But if you refer to HM/NiM ops - it's a completely different story. Tanks should know the fight and the gear required. Let me just mention that few weeks ago I met a shadow tank in SM DF who has cunning and strength in his gear. And unfortunately this is not the only case, many tanks in ops are not good enough - either because not geared properly and not knowing the fight, or because are too egocentric and posing hence being bad team players (especially overgeared tanks).

SirTwist's Avatar


SirTwist
01.14.2014 , 11:44 PM | #106
Having some additional stats other than your main stat doesn't help. However, if your gear contains anything other than your main stat and endurance, then you don't know what you are doing. And that shows that someone isn't paying attention to what they are doing. I would take the person aside, and say look, this is what you need. You need to get rid of this thing and that thing, and replace it with your main stat. The other stats can be added by datacrons, if you take time to hunt for them. Of course, the main stat ones help the most.

Back on point, though, tanks do need to learn how to tank, dps's need to learn, somewhat, what they need to do. Healers need to also learn. But it's not too hard to learn. It's in the doing that need to be worked on, at times.

To add to this, it might be better to have the group in something like teamspeak to be able to communicate with everyone. They don't have to be able to talk, just listen. And explaining things to a new tank may help get them better, as well.