This is how tanking should be again.

Justbodies was a example how tanking was done in old days.

No reason why game can't be like this again.

Immortal Juggernaut

I run 3 sets of gear in PvP.

High HP tank set for voidstar guard and huttball. Works great, shines with a healer. (Set is min/maxed)

High Mitigation set for testing - low HP but avoided 20% and absorbed 30%. It does work as I'm not using CDs near as much as the high HP Tank set (Set is not min/maxed...yet) <---- A ton of fun watching all the misses and low incoming damage which pisses off the DPS. I could pull out the absorb/shield augments for Fortitude, but man that mitigation is comical at times. Toss up a DCD and it can be very frustrating for Burst specs as they blow their burst all over your DCD . I'm still testing and completing the min/max. It's my PvE gear but fun at times inside a WZ. It is worth another look but could use some improvements.

Pure DPS set with tank armorings - voidstar attack and arenas. When I want to blow up a guard at an off-node. With the right utilities, it will get 32K CBs often (Set is min/maxed)

I don't top DPS boards or protection, as I'm a Regstar and play objectively. Guard swapping, taunting, holding nodes, defending nodes, and peels. Keeping an eye over the entire WZ, I usually react much quicker than an off-node guard can send an incoming call out. Having multiple sets of gear to pull from and use to their full advantage really screws the enemy up.due to ranked drama and BS it is rare for me to Q yolo or Grank

TL:DR - The full mitigation set could use more HP and be more valuable in PvP. The High HP set is perfect where it's at. The full DPS set could be toned down. Immortal Jugg is a great hybrid class when geared and speced to play off of it's advantages. Natural 111% accuracy means we don't miss very often.

I would bet 100% of the "Nerf Skank Tanks" threads are started by snipers, Ops, Marauders, and Mercs....I guess their clear advantages are not enough for them. They need Juggs, sins, and PTs to have even less survivability so no other class has any chance at all. They should all petition that we can't wear any armor and we should not be able to use the sprint ability ffs

Exactly, just poor players that do not know how to handle tanks in PvP. If they change tanks, all mercs/snipers should be required to play ONLY tanks in PvP from that day forward....;-) Really only a poor player doesn't know how to handle skanks in pvp, and they have a very narrow role already in PvP, changes suggested would be eliminating them from PvP completely.

These are the same chumps that fooled the devs into getting rid of healers in PvP, now they want to get rid of tanks, then it will be any remaining class that isn't a merc or sniper and we'll just have joke wars of mercs killing mercs, booooooooring.

I don't think I've ever seen a player skank tanking (by that I mean tank spec, tank armorings but full dps gear otherwise) that I could respect as a skilled player. I'm positive that every one of them would be both less useful in a regular dps spec, and an even more mediocre tank if they played high HP tank.

It's a cheesey placeholder for skill.

The way I suggested to fix skanktanking was to copy wow like this game has already done in numerous ways, and make "Mastery" give discipline specific passives instead of dmg.

This way, they could remove basically all the dps stats from tank gear and instead make it stack mastery, where it'd give the wearer more damage reduction, or some other beneficial tanky stat.

Also lock guard to tank spec.

I don't think I've ever seen a player skank tanking (by that I mean tank spec, tank armorings but full dps gear otherwise) that I could respect as a skilled player. I'm positive that every one of them would be both less useful in a regular dps spec, and an even more mediocre tank if they played high HP tank.

 

It's a cheesey placeholder for skill.

There are snarky replies and I am sure you could guess a few I might post, but seriously it doesn't help so lets move past that.

The way I suggested to fix skanktanking was to copy wow like this game has already done in numerous ways, and make "Mastery" give discipline specific passives instead of dmg.

 

This way, they could remove basically all the dps stats from tank gear and instead make it stack mastery, where it'd give the wearer more damage reduction, or some other beneficial tanky stat.

 

Also lock guard to tank spec.

Maybe some, but not really. Point is even if you fix shanking....did you fix tanking? Did you fix the dps builds of those tank classes? Did you fix healing? Did you fix DPS who can heal?

In the end tank need to do some damage, turning their mastery into defenses removes that, and that's not really a viable option.

You play an operative have you ever hit 1 million healing as a dps, I came close with my scoundrel nearly 800k. And I am not well geared or well practiced. Should a dps be healing at that rate? Isn't that a problem as great or greater then dps guarding?

Skanks would go away soon enough if tanking was working right. It would go away if the DPS builds of tanks had reasonable defenses. And this is important if you up the defenses of the dps builds you very seriously need to do something about guard put out by a dps. Maybe they should be able to guard, maybe I make them reduce the incoming damage by 10% but they take 30% to do that. So sure they can do it but its not efficient or safe. Maybe just remove it, but I like this less because it reduces tactical choices.

As i mentioned just above, in tank gear, damage is not as high. In a raiding environment i'm generally pulling around 2.5-3k as a tank (guardian). As a skank in pvp idk i really haven't been paying attention but since i have killed some people 1v1 i'm assuming it's higher. because dps gear. I hate skanking, i absolutely despise the entire concept, but like a real hypocrite I do it because I hate being squishy more. My three recommendations from above (and from virtually everywhere else on these forums) would solve the problem. People that want to tank, would actually tank if they were the only spec that could guard and tank gear meant something. People that want to dps would dps if the dps spec did more than die first every round. even with a healer.

 

Literally all nerfing tank damage will do is kill threat generation in pve. and make already tight dps checks even worse. so please no. fix the gear and defensive balance on classes.

Just increase the amount of threat the tank stance gives. Problem solved.

Anyone remember listening to Musco's interview with Snave back in July 2016 where they discussed this issue.

Here is the link. Just jump to around 26mins for this part of the discussion.

What I find amazing is they've known about this for over a year and nothing has been done even though they don't want hybrids in the game.

Tank stats are useless atm. Any nerf to skank tanking (not that I am in favour of that - for a variety of reasons) should come along with a fix make tank stats viable IMO.

Coming back to the variety of reasons part:

-when I played this season hps was very high, DCDS were very strong and I'm not convince that trinity arenas would ever end w/o proper skank tanking.

-I don't believe that bw has the resources to make tank stats viable/rebalance and anything they do might break the game

Anyone remember listening to Musco's interview with Snave back in July 2016 where they discussed this issue.

 

Here is the link. Just jump to around 26mins for this part of the discussion.

 

What I find amazing is they've known about this for over a year and nothing has been done even though they don't want hybrids in the game.

Exactly. Why I posted this. And the people worried about nerfing skank is funny to me.

It shouldn't exist. Tank is suppose to be a meat shield not a dps spec with a **** ton of survivable outcomes..

Then you get the, well dps has to adapt and learn to play against it...

If you leave jugg dps specs in their current state, and nerf immortal skank-tank significantly, you might as well just kill the class at large. I've played jugg as much as anybody I know in ToR, and the dps specs right now are untenable against any level of ranged pressure. They melt like butter.

Finally someone has the point.

Also DPS spec can get constantly outdpsed by a skank tank in very few occasions:

1) Enemy team is full melee and tanktunneling, while you are single target spec

2) You are getting heavily pressured or CCed on cooldown

3) You are offhealing

In pretty much all other cases it's a l2p issue.

Finally someone has the point.

 

Also DPS spec can get constantly outdpsed by a skank tank in very few occasions:

1) Enemy team is full melee and tanktunneling, while you are single target spec

2) You are getting heavily pressured or CCed on cooldown

3) You are offhealing

 

In pretty much all other cases it's a l2p issue.

Anyone with a brain already knows dps has to focus. Why are some of you stating the obvious.

This isn't a learn to play issue, this is a deal with the fact tanks wearing dps gear is a problem. This also is a issue that tanks are being forced to do so since there is no mitigation in pvp for tank to wear actual tank gear.

Also like I've posted, bolster is the reason why this is a issue, the combat team has knew about this for over a year or longer and still we have the problem.

I play 16 specs in this game, and switch all of them from time to time, so this isn't some random speaking cause of favortism for my benefit.

I'm speaking on behalf as someone who used to tank in 8 man ranked, and was dam good at it before bolster, actual mini Max tanking and expertise was ripped away.

If anyone that understands the gravity what it means, then speak other wise I've seen a handful of people accepting the imbalance of the situation for their own behalf.

This isn't a if it isn't broke don't fix it, this is a it's been broken w t f are you doing bioware..

Fin

If you leave jugg dps specs in their current state, and nerf immortal skank-tank significantly, you might as well just kill the class at large. I've played jugg as much as anybody I know in ToR, and the dps specs right now are untenable against any level of ranged pressure. They melt like butter.

Omg thank you! I've mained a guardian since I started playing this game shortly before the Hutt cartel expansion.

The dps specs of guardians and pts is just too crap survivability wise to be viable right now. FYI I absolutely despise skank tanking but since dps is squishy as crap and tank gear is useless what else should I do?

I don't think I've ever seen a player skank tanking (by that I mean tank spec, tank armorings but full dps gear otherwise) that I could respect as a skilled player. I'm positive that every one of them would be both less useful in a regular dps spec, and an even more mediocre tank if they played high HP tank.

.

Maybe not a single decent player on TEH then, if you havent seen one ?

It could do with reworking (especially guard for dps specc) but in current state for tank not doing dmg is bad. Pts and Juggs would be non present in solo rank and team tanked games would always last to acid... hps was strong and dcds even stronger ..

The video of tanking in the past is good and works great in 8v8 but that format is no longer and in 4s tanks damage is needed atm.

So maybe just before calling for nerfs again and saying ppl play wrong or whatnot its worth to see the bigger picture.

It would need quite a few changes to make it work better and we all knownhow changes end up to be in Bio's execution.

any Merc or Sniper and even Mara being more tanky then tanks. And seeing them unccable;with best dcds or in mercs case healing for 2k hps is it really a guard that is the biggest issue in this game ? Be serious.

Well, afaik, shank tanks were DPS-specs with a shield generator, that could stance dance into the tank spec for extra mitigation and access to guard. When stances were made passive, shank tanks were essentially killed off completely. As I see it, DPS with guard is just that, DPS. As bioware has said before, they'll take guard off the menu for dps specs, so I don't see any reason to discuss that.

This leaves only skank tanks.

We can automatically put aside the suggestions of nerfing tank dps and balancing the game around regs, which leaves the options of preventing tanks from queuing with DPS gear, reworking tank stats and mechanics in PvP, or messing about with bolster.

Preventing skank tanks from queuing altogether seems like a very heavy handed or temporary way to "fix" the skank tank "problem" but, the biggest issue is that full tank gear isn't even ideal for PvE, so it doesn't make much sense to enforce it for PvP.

Reworking tank stats, as to make having tank gear more desirable and valuable would ofc be a very long and difficult process to implement and balance. While it could make some people transition from skanking to tanking, it might also not work, resulting in a net increase to tank survivability without a decrease in the number of skank tanks.

Bolster does complement skank tank builds, making them stronger but, nerfing or removing bolster will not get rid of skank tanks. As I see it, all it would do is widen the effect of the gear gap.

So, in my opinion, for the reasons above, there is no clear or easy solution to this issue. And perhaps this isn't even the most important issue swtor PvP faces right now.

Anyone with a brain already knows dps has to focus. Why are some of you stating the obvious.

 

This isn't a learn to play issue, this is a deal with the fact tanks wearing dps gear is a problem. This also is a issue that tanks are being forced to do so since there is no mitigation in pvp for tank to wear actual tank gear.

 

Also like I've posted, bolster is the reason why this is a issue, the combat team has knew about this for over a year or longer and still we have the problem.

 

I play 16 specs in this game, and switch all of them from time to time, so this isn't some random speaking cause of favortism for my benefit.

 

I'm speaking on behalf as someone who used to tank in 8 man ranked, and was dam good at it before bolster, actual mini Max tanking and expertise was ripped away.

 

If anyone that understands the gravity what it means, then speak other wise I've seen a handful of people accepting the imbalance of the situation for their own behalf.

 

This isn't a if it isn't broke don't fix it, this is a it's been broken w t f are you doing bioware..

 

Fin

Nightrain is more qualified to speak on tanking/skank tanks in pvp more than anyone else on this thread. He is probably the best pvp group ranked/solo ranked tank in the game through multiple seasons and has the most experience. If he says it's a learn to play issue I would take his opinion more seriously.

Well, imo there is indeed some things that could be done to improve the PvP balance.

First thing, I'm against removing entirely Guard for dps spec. It is part of what you call assist gameplay, removing it would just make some dps less useful for their group. Or remove the ability to heal other when playing dps too. but again, this would ruin the concept of teamplay and I'm against this.

But, what we could do is make some changes like what they've done to Assassin's Maul, where you're less effective when not using it properly :

Guard can be used by both dps and tanks. But the amount of damage guarded OR received is determined by the tank stat of the user. A dps player with 0 in defense, or a Skank Tank, would only guard 20% of the incoming damage, OR would receive like 70% damage when the guarded player is hit (while the guarded player would still receive only half of the damage). But if the user is a tank, with tank stat/gear, then the guard would be more effective : 50% DR and 50% damage transferred to the user. The same could apply with taunt.

Also make it so that Tanks takes more base damage in PvP when playing with dps gear, but if playing with tank gear, the DR becomes actually more viable than it is now. Improving the actual use of Defense/Absorption rating in PvP could be usefull indeed.

But again, removing an assist tool that has been given shouldn't be the way to fix things, or you should as well remove heals from dps spec and prevent Marauder's Predation or Sniper's Ballistic Shield to affect other players as well, but this wouldn't really work and would only make PvP more of a solo type of play that would reward more people that q only with premade and mess up with solo players.

Reducing the dps done by tanks in general (Both tank and skank) would require a balance in terms of dps, make it so that dps spec deal more damage than they do now, for preventing unbalance in PvE, where some DPS checks are needed. (They already made it harder by nerfing damage done by dps, nerfing damage done by tanks now would render things really difficult in PvE, and would only make more people complain )

Another urgent matter is the broken utility nerf.

The almighty Trinity (aka Merc/sniper/mara) should receive a DcDs nerf in order to rebalance things properly. They weren't needed before in PvE and in PvP, I don't see why they should need it now.

Removing Kolto Surge utility and switching Trauma Regulator utility to Specialist could bring merc to an appropriate level with others class (Responsive Safeguard isn't really a problematic DcD because you can counter it with ease by using dot/aoe. It is more of a skill based DcD imo).

Nerfing Tactical Retreat utility by 5% and Defensive Safeguard utility by removing the heal given should make it for snipers as well.

As for marauder, Ruthless Aggressor utility should be nerfed as well... I don't think that the Force/Tech Resistance should have been there in the first place. This would bring back Marauders where they belong imo, in the "Glass Canon" range.

These changes would also greatly reduce the imbalance in PvP. Shorter fights, in addition to the buff of tank stat in PvP should help resolve the need for skank tanks, and would bring back more class like dps PT or dps Jugg, who clearly shouldn't be as low as they are now. ^^'

But that's just my point of view eh xD

Is no one going to mention the other side that's wrong with Skank tanks whatever it is ppl call them? This has been going on forever from when Dark Maul was a thing and it was a thing for Sages that used to heal and dps when talent trees could hybrid.

One of the main reasons outside of dps gear are the actual talents in the tank trees each of them has traits that allow for either insane burst or sustain in combination with dps gear. Powertechs have Flame engine and Hydraulic Shield both of these reset hard hitting skills and one makes it 100% stronger lol... Juggernauts Crushing blow already has a huge damage modifier it doesn't need consuming power or pillar of strength to increase its crit chance by 20% and damage by 30%.. Then Sins are just crawling with damage booster to skills Electrify, Energize, Lighting reflexes, Mounting darkness, Harnessed Darkness. All those traits are huge damage boosters put on dps gear and it just blows up.

Sure ppl can make the argument but tank class stances reduce damage by 10%, well clearly that does nothing. The only thing I would be concerned about if those traits were to be reworked to get rid of the damage potential is Pve threat gain and just overall fun. Being a tank imo should primarily be about self preservation through dcds, the ability to use Guard, Best CC options, and the ability to spread trauma. I don't think high damage in any form such as burst or sustain should be something other players should be concerned about at the level it is today.

Maybe not a single decent player on TEH then, if you havent seen one ?

It could do with reworking (especially guard for dps specc) but in current state for tank not doing dmg is bad. Pts and Juggs would be non present in solo rank and team tanked games would always last to acid... hps was strong and dcds even stronger ..

The video of tanking in the past is good and works great in 8v8 but that format is no longer and in 4s tanks damage is needed atm.

So maybe just before calling for nerfs again and saying ppl play wrong or whatnot its worth to see the bigger picture.

It would need quite a few changes to make it work better and we all knownhow changes end up to be in Bio's execution.

any Merc or Sniper and even Mara being more tanky then tanks. And seeing them unccable;with best dcds or in mercs case healing for 2k hps is it really a guard that is the biggest issue in this game ? Be serious.

Forget it, people want pvp to be balanced around regs. Who cares if team ranked will be destroyed.

But there's a little problem: guess how many people would it take to kill a fixed mitigation tank and a guarded healer?

Forget it, people want pvp to be balanced around regs. Who cares if team ranked will be destroyed.

 

But there's a little problem: guess how many people would it take to kill a fixed mitigation tank and a guarded healer?

Right now with healing so strong....yeah a fixed mitigation tank and healer would be as near to unkillable in ranked as possible. 2 dps, no way, 4 maybe if they can stay alive long enough. It all comes back to there is more then one problem to fix, fix one only and everything goes boom. And this what 9 months into a expansion and still a mess is really ugly. They need to react quicker.

If you leave jugg dps specs in their current state, and nerf immortal skank-tank significantly, you might as well just kill the class at large. I've played jugg as much as anybody I know in ToR, and the dps specs right now are untenable against any level of ranged pressure. They melt like butter.

Ok, but what is your point?

We should leave a stupid/broken meta in place only because your class would suffer if we didn't?

Maybe you should go to the Jugg forums and make your case for better survivability instead?

This point of view could be compared to me making a case for 2.8/3.0 Madness/Hatred to be balanced just because Deception was ****. It's dumb. Stop.

Skank Tank = Tank with dps gear.

Shank Tank = Dps with guard, classes like jug, pt, or assassin.

 

Fyi: I don't care what you wanna call it, both are skank tank in my eyes. Whatever. You wanna call it skank, spank, shank, potatoes, do so. Bottom line a wannabe tank being a dps is a hybrid imbalance, period.

 

On topic: This debate and issue been ongoing for long time, now it's as bad as it gets with countless players playing this hybrid overturned class abomination.

 

Snave had a interview on this June 2016 among other issues and even Musco agreed and even commented the combat team knew the issues with guard and tank problems and agreed this was a serious issue for balance changes needed. Snave and Eric agreed a bandaid first is take away guard from dps, then Snave said exactly how to fix tanks is by making absorb or shield rating co exist for pvp where tanks actually can be tanks. Making guard only usable with a certain amount of shield rating or absorb boom fixed.

 

Link to interview Snave and Musco skip to 24:20

 

My question is to Eric Musco, or any Dev who reads these forums for feedback.

 

Question: Are you going to address this issue in 5.4 and if not then, when?

 

Thanks.

Dude. It's pointless to open a topic with a question to Eric Musco & the Devs. They don't answer questions. They just don't. They never did.

Ok, but what is your point?

We should leave a stupid/broken meta in place only because your class would suffer if we didn't?

 

Maybe you should go to the Jugg forums and make your case for better survivability instead?

 

 

This point of view could be compared to me making a case for 2.8/3.0 Madness/Hatred to be balanced just because Deception was ****. It's dumb. Stop.

Their arguement is weak but you do need to prove/show/explain that skank tanking is broken too. Just saying their arguement is weak isn't enough. Prove your point.

Does a skank Guardian in this case have better defenses then say a dps commando? gun-slinger? Dps scoundrel? DPS shadow? Sentinel? By how much, is it defineable or maybe just well better or better by a lot, we need something to work with here.

Does he do more damage then any of the above? Or is his dps too close to any of the above?

Simply saying well he's better then a dps Guardian doesn't prove much, all those above are also better, with better defense and better offense. We need to agree on what the ceilings should be before demanding nerfs or changes.

What I can tell you is his dps is lower then all of the above, lower even then a dps guardian. But his survivablity is at least on par with many of the other dps builds. I know it's better then a dps Guardian. I am not sure it is better then a dps merc, gunslinger, scoundrel or sentinel.