Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

What happened to SWTOR? Some insight by Jeff Nyman (game tester)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion > Off-Topic
What happened to SWTOR? Some insight by Jeff Nyman (game tester)
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

ZionHalcyon's Avatar


ZionHalcyon
09.13.2019 , 11:33 AM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by TonyTricicolo View Post
I truly hope so but there's the jaded side of me that's tired of getting burnt. After pushing on 8 years with this game, I'm numb.
Good ol' Dubya:
https://youtu.be/KjmjqlOPd6A
I can certainly understand that. 100%.

Lhancelot's Avatar


Lhancelot
09.13.2019 , 01:26 PM | #62
Quote: Originally Posted by Rion_Starkiller View Post
I don't really understand this Jeff Nyman's blog. He makes a lot of assumptions, rehashes things we already know or guessed at, and craps all over Eric. We already know that the BW studio in Austin was working Anthem, which left a skeleton crew to maintain SWTOR since at least 5.0, while not really working on any new content. Hell, I've done QA work myself, am I an "expert" on BW operations too? Whereas the article he is referencing has information from someone who is purported to be an ex-BWA employee.
Let me correct your comment. No, Jeff's blog says nothing about Eric.

Jeff Nyman posted responses to questions people posed at him regarding "Community Management" responsibilities. Suddenly now, it's poor Eric, getting crapped on? Haha. That's rich. So quickly we forget the past.

If Eric had been communicative and responsive the first 5-6 years of his activity as Community Manager that topic never would have come up, and Jeff Nyman's comments and explanations on what Community Management actually does for a studio wouldn't come off as critical as it does.

Nyman just explained the facts. I guess the truth hurts. Moving this to Off-Topic proves that, too.
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
Iíd still like to know how you find someoneís legacy name if they donít display it?
Quote: Originally Posted by omaan View Post
Uh you don't know it because it is a secret knowledge of ranked players who use it to see the real appearance of other players through the force.

ZionHalcyon's Avatar


ZionHalcyon
09.13.2019 , 03:45 PM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by Lhancelot View Post
Let me correct your comment. No, Jeff's blog says nothing about Eric.

Jeff Nyman posted responses to questions people posed at him regarding "Community Management" responsibilities. Suddenly now, it's poor Eric, getting crapped on? Haha. That's rich. So quickly we forget the past.

If Eric had been communicative and responsive the first 5-6 years of his activity as Community Manager that topic never would have come up, and Jeff Nyman's comments and explanations on what Community Management actually does for a studio wouldn't come off as critical as it does.

Nyman just explained the facts. I guess the truth hurts. Moving this to Off-Topic proves that, too.
Not going to get on Eric for this move, honestly. I thought about it, and we are actually talking about the stuff behind the scenes, and also while it rings true, conjecture. We aren't talking specifically about gameplay issues or the game itself.

So under that lens, I can see why the move was made.

And if you feel that's defending Eric - just before you go to overboard remember in the past I called for his firing for how badly he was doing at the job, according to the expected standards set by other companies, the same ones Jeff espoused.

However, that call was because I wanted to see better from the Community Manager position, and wasn't personal (although I certainly could understand Eric feeling it was). But because it was never personal on my end, I also don't hold any grudges now that Eric IS living up to the role in my eyes. He's performing the Community Manager role now at a decent level at this point; I'd say doing an average job, but certainly not below average or to the point where I think he should be gone.

And it is a different spot than when I called for his firing 2 years ago or so. Back then, he was literally doing nothing but marketing, acting as each expansion's hypeman, and then we'd never see him. From that perspective, nowhere to go but up, or at worst, a lateral move.

But now? Now that he's finally living up to the station, I wouldn't want to see him go, because we know first hand it CAN get worse and HAS been worse. And whether he himself decided to improve or was directed to do it, I am not going to begrudge someone who finally gets it and is doing the job right. Which Eric is now.

Considering that - that Eric took someone who wanted him fired and converted him to the point where that same person would advocate for Eric in the role he is in currently - that isn't something that one just wakes up one day and has a different opinion. Some have accused me for white-knighting for Eric now, but to me, he simply earned his spot. Given that, I don't think others really are in much of a position to criticize too much, at least with the current version of Eric (and barring anything stupid going forward).

There's a ton of baggage players who have stuck with this game have, not just on Eric, but on a lot of things.

Because of that, it can cloud judgement and cause people to miss seeing when the winds shift.

My suggestion, and its only a suggestion, is to just discard all the baggage. You'll be happier, and it may help with seeing the big picture. And if something does go screwy, it will allow you to keep your objectivity on whether its a one off or a repeat of the past...

Just my take - feel free to take it or leave it.

Rolodome's Avatar


Rolodome
09.13.2019 , 04:27 PM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by ZionHalcyon View Post
Not going to get on Eric for this move, honestly. I thought about it, and we are actually talking about the stuff behind the scenes, and also while it rings true, conjecture. We aren't talking specifically about gameplay issues or the game itself.

So under that lens, I can see why the move was made.

And if you feel that's defending Eric - just before you go to overboard remember in the past I called for his firing for how badly he was doing at the job, according to the expected standards set by other companies, the same ones Jeff espoused.

However, that call was because I wanted to see better from the Community Manager position, and wasn't personal (although I certainly could understand Eric feeling it was). But because it was never personal on my end, I also don't hold any grudges now that Eric IS living up to the role in my eyes. He's performing the Community Manager role now at a decent level at this point; I'd say doing an average job, but certainly not below average or to the point where I think he should be gone.

And it is a different spot than when I called for his firing 2 years ago or so. Back then, he was literally doing nothing but marketing, acting as each expansion's hypeman, and then we'd never see him. From that perspective, nowhere to go but up, or at worst, a lateral move.

But now? Now that he's finally living up to the station, I wouldn't want to see him go, because we know first hand it CAN get worse and HAS been worse. And whether he himself decided to improve or was directed to do it, I am not going to begrudge someone who finally gets it and is doing the job right. Which Eric is now.

Considering that - that Eric took someone who wanted him fired and converted him to the point where that same person would advocate for Eric in the role he is in currently - that isn't something that one just wakes up one day and has a different opinion. Some have accused me for white-knighting for Eric now, but to me, he simply earned his spot. Given that, I don't think others really are in much of a position to criticize too much, at least with the current version of Eric (and barring anything stupid going forward).

There's a ton of baggage players who have stuck with this game have, not just on Eric, but on a lot of things.

Because of that, it can cloud judgement and cause people to miss seeing when the winds shift.

My suggestion, and its only a suggestion, is to just discard all the baggage. You'll be happier, and it may help with seeing the big picture. And if something does go screwy, it will allow you to keep your objectivity on whether its a one off or a repeat of the past...

Just my take - feel free to take it or leave it.
It's possible that Eric's version of community manager has improved and my standards are just such that it doesn't seem good enough (I don't know if my standards are even fair or not, but that's a deeper question I'd have to analyze on my own, after working out what exactly my standards are).

That said, I don't notice much of a difference. He doesn't seem to have any idea how to communicate about the 6.0 concerns, for example. I get the impression he's trying to some extent, like when he said, "If you are helping us test loot acquisition on PTS, take a breather." That came across to me like he was trying to be understanding of the frustrations people are having and the effort being put into feedback and testing.

But for the most part, it just seems like he shares factual information when it's available and that's about it, which for the times I've been around, has been what he's always done (so far as I can recall it). So to me, it just seems like he's more vocal because the team as a whole has more to talk about, with stuff going on PTS and the like.

I guess one of my standards or expectations of what I want to see in community managers for games is having some sense of back and forth. Rather than saying something in response to one post every now and again, and leaving it at that, which seems to be the standard approach to communication for just about every yellow post for this game, Eric or otherwise. Back and forth evokes more authenticity; you can't just pick the easiest post to respond to in a thread when it's convenient for you and write something. You might get responses to something you said that are uncomfortable to address and are harder to have a boilerplate answer for.

Another thing I like to see is a sense that they actually understand the player side of things. Eric, to me, has always seemed aloof. Not aggressively aloof - I don't think he's chronically rude or anything - but aloof in the sense that concerns for the game don't really seem personal to him. And maybe that's fair if so, maybe it's healthier that way for him to be able to divorce his job from the direction of the game. But when people are dealing with issues with the game that they care (in some cases) fervently about and the community manager doesn't seem invested in it much at all, since they are the main representative for the people working on the game, it can then come across like the people working on the game don't care much about what happens with it.

Also, I think there are ways to show you care about something insofar as it impacts somebody else, without necessarily caring deeply about it yourself. Sympathizing, empathizing, etc. Obviously anyone who is speaking in an official capacity for a company has to be careful about how they word stuff, but I'm sure it's possible to give the impression of hearing concerns, even if they don't personally affect you, and that doesn't seem to be one of his strengths.

I don't think my standards are unrealistic, but they may be unrealistic for his personality and it may be that some people prefer certain styles of communication over others, so they enjoy the way he communicates.

I don't expect any of it to change or necessarily believe there is an easy path to doing so. Just thought I would share some specific thoughts on the subject and where I come from in questioning the levels/type of communication.
Clicky referral link for freebies, read how referral works.

Totemdancer's Avatar


Totemdancer
09.13.2019 , 05:56 PM | #65
Quote: Originally Posted by ZionHalcyon View Post
Because of that, it can cloud judgement and cause people to miss seeing when the winds shift.
When Bioware burns you over and over for 7 years, it will cloud your impression. Ericís hot and cold forum attendance during important debates or problems hasnít helped his rep that much. He is better than he was, but I feel there is still room for improvement in two way communication and conversations, instead of single forum bombs he drops and usually walks away from to let fester. Those bombs have had the appearance of trolling in the past.
His current PTS posting is vastly different and refreshing. Iím just waiting for the other shoe to drop if there are problems (not technical) after 6.0 launches. Weíve all seen him disappear and leave us in the dark during those periods and it undoes any good will or rep he builds before hand.
I want to be optimistic, I really do, but how many times can you get burnt and not have your judgment clouded. How do we know the winds have really shifted until we see 6.0 delivered and follow up communication support to follow?
Please click below link for FREE stuff and Friend Referal for Free 7 day subscription

Totemdancer's Avatar


Totemdancer
09.13.2019 , 06:02 PM | #66
Quote: Originally Posted by Lhancelot View Post
I guess the truth hurts. Moving this to Off-Topic proves that, too.
At least he didnít just delete it like he has in the past when things got too truthful. But I do agree it probably shouldnít have been moved to off-topic. There are way more off topic threads going now than this one.
Please click below link for FREE stuff and Friend Referal for Free 7 day subscription

Totemdancer's Avatar


Totemdancer
09.13.2019 , 06:08 PM | #67
Quote: Originally Posted by ZionHalcyon View Post
I think a good way to sum up those of us who believe Jeff is telling the truth from his own point of view is this:

It gives not only a bit of clarity, but a bit of peace of mind and calmness by doing away with a narrative that has followed the game for years, that being the original creators made this wonderful game with eight classes and eight classes stories with the full intent of continuing it on, only to have EA ruin it by forcing them to abandon class stories.

And instead we find out that's the game never was going to reach the potential we all saw in it because BioWare didn't want all eight classes stories in the first place, that a lot of the decisions we blamed on EA ultimately rested with BioWare, and that because of it including BioWare's own policy that they are okay with people leaving and coming back later when new content is available instead of continually developing content.

Or more to the point:

BioWare never really wanted to make an MMO and it shows in every single decision since launch up until Keith took over.

Digest that for a bit. Seriously think about that.

When someone sets out to make an MMO, they are committing to releasing content on a consistent basis. They know this going in. Everything from the development of the game onward is set up so that they can deliver on that content as efficiently as possible.

Instead, we have bastardized version of the hero engine which was in a pre-alpha state when it was purchased by BioWare, and we have a rash of decisions since launch that slowly and effectively we run doing everything it appeared launch set up.

And then there's that policy. The one that says it's okay for people to leave and come back later. That isn't even something that was new when Jeff put it in his blog. Those comments have been out there for a while and we all were aware of them.

Everything really just makes more sense when you figure that BioWare never wanted to make this an MMO.

And it also gives me a new appreciation for Keith.

People keep down playing or misunderstanding just how important that under the hood article was in March.

That was the first sign that they were taking the engine and modifying it to support more rapid development of content. You also have a re-engagement with the community and for the first time I can remember, feedback on the pts being actively used prior to a launch. Along with taking a macro View of what the developers are trying to do with these new systems oh, one thing becomes very obvious to me in light of Jeff's comments.

Onslaught is a soft relaunch of SWTOR and they are going to try to make this into the MMO the players wanted.

That does not mean they will be able to cater to every single players wants. The RNG loot system is a great example. People are freaking out over it but all MMOs have a degree of RNG. To expect one to not have it is simply stupid. However, there's also a reasonable level of it that is expected but to go beyond it is Ludacris, and I understand that point as well. It was obvious from the first attempt that the developers went too far into the RNG and while they shouldn't get rid of it completely they do need to pull back on it a lot, which it appears they are willing and attempting to do based on the communications from Eric.

Seems an awful lot like a group that isn't sure of how to properly do an MMO trying to test some things and figure it out doesn't it?

And before people get on them for it, at least now they are willing to try and now imagine the challenge of doing this all under the public eye and every person scrutinizing all your moves and attempts. Most of us would chafe under that sort of scrutiny.

But this group seems willing to endure it in order to get this right.

These are the behind-the-scenes things of just looking at things and why I am so high on Keith when many others probably are not, because I can see the big picture.

Doesn't mean they will succeed or get it right. But I applaud the attempts to finally do things the right way even if it means trial and error in order to figure it out and all the public scrutiny that comes with it.
We donít always agree, but I think you summed that up nicely. Now we just need them to deliver on 6.0 for the majority of players and not marginalise them.
Please click below link for FREE stuff and Friend Referal for Free 7 day subscription

Lhancelot's Avatar


Lhancelot
09.14.2019 , 08:27 AM | #68
Quote: Originally Posted by ZionHalcyon View Post
I think you are a tad oversensitive here.

He actually brought a lot of clarity, some of the angles he presented I have NEVER seen anyone bring up even with 8 years of angst and conspiracy theory on why this game failed to live up to the hype, and Jeff's take on what a community manager SHOULD be is 100% accurate, and is how MOST active gaming community managers do their jobs. That Eric wasn't living up to that until recently is no one's fault but Eric's or perhaps those who were in charge above him.
That's how I felt. ^

I really was appreciative for all the "insider" information Jeff Nyman shared. If he completely fabricated it all up from his imagination, I don't care at this point.

What Jeff Nyman told us gave me a sense of clarity that BW and Eric have failed to do for years regarding some of the 'whys' and 'hows' of SWTOR's development decision making choices.

I also never read how community management worked for a studio, what all their responsibilities entailed until Jeff Nyman explained them on the forums to us. I find it really hard to believe he pulled all this out of his *** without having actual understanding of these processes.

One of the most unnerving things is to see disorganization or unreasonable decisions being made, but with zero explanation of why. Couple that with this illogical behavior continuing on for years with the same lack of understanding of "why" really had me on this roller coaster with this game, because I kept having high expectations only to be disappointed over and over again after every large update/patch.

With Nyman's explanations, I had a sense of understanding why it was so disorganized and why they have made such seemingly illogical decisions in the past.

I began starting to have those old resentments again though, which is part of why I pulled these posts back up because once again, with another large patch which ought to be greeted with great excitement, instead we are on another roller coaster ride because again, they are making decisions that quite frankly don't make any sense.

Zion, you remind me of Yillarius with your optimistic sweet naivety. Yillarius too, had this overwhelming sense of optimism, and at first I found it exhausting and to be honest annoying. Then I thought it over, and came to an understanding and accepted his perception and that's what I have done with you and your posts, I don't mean this as an insult either.

Sadly Yillarius lost all that energy to defend and "hope" and "wish" for the game to improve. In fact, Yillarius has all but disappeared in the past last few months! Sadly! I like to see people have this kind of hope and dreams for the game because without optimism we would only be in a world of ****, as Private Pyle so eloquently put it in Full Metal Jacket. I worry this will happen to you. You will become trodden and beaten down like all the other optimists that have come and gone here.

Me, I have been here since the beginning and I grew distrustful and resentful over years time while playing SWTOR off and on, mostly on though for 5+ years. Seeing the same pattern of doing things dumb and then expecting different results has built this negativity up in me.

BW I assume is filled full of highly intelligent people working on this game. How can some of these utterly dumb changes even be considered? I still marvel at the seeming ineptness of this studio. Sadly Nyman's posts don't relieve me of this newfound resentment I have because at this point, they really should know better.

Anyway, Zion I appreciate you having an open enough mind to look at the other side of the coin and make considerations based on that.

I don't agree with some of your posts but I do understand your position on what you write about and you have not responded to individuals posts with an obvious grudge as some other posters have done.

It's clear many people on the forums have a personal disliking for other posters and so their reactions and responses to posts others write are met with a lot of disdain and resentment based on that personal disliking.

Many forumposters respond according to how they like/dislike the other poster(s). This reminds me of how school children behave with popularity dictating their behavior, not reason or logic. I am just saying, try to continue to remain objectively as you already do. We will see how long your optimism will continue, hopefully it does.


P.S. What happened to Yillarius?
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
Iíd still like to know how you find someoneís legacy name if they donít display it?
Quote: Originally Posted by omaan View Post
Uh you don't know it because it is a secret knowledge of ranked players who use it to see the real appearance of other players through the force.

ZionHalcyon's Avatar


ZionHalcyon
09.14.2019 , 09:52 AM | #69
No idea but thank you for the compliments. The one thing I would say is if you look over my posts, I fell more into your camp for most of my BioWare playing experience with SWTOR.

I would say that is the key difference between me and Yil:

I'm not so much defending BioWare. Rather I am cautiously optimistic based on evidence that I have seen, rather than being optimistic based on nothing but my own wishes for what the game could be.

As I have said, they could still get this very wrong and I reserve the right to change my mind at any time.

But for the first time in a while, I can see evidence of a positive direction and a Clear Vision of where this game is going and should be and so I want to see how it plays out.

I kind of equated to a football team that gets a new general manager and the GM is doing things the way a professional football GM should in an organization that hasn't really had that before. It doesn't mean the new GM is going to get everything right or be excellent. But it is just plain refreshing to see business being done the way it should be done and that is the reason for my optimism. Now whether it amounts to anything good, we will see once Onslaught launches...

commanderwar's Avatar


commanderwar
09.14.2019 , 12:49 PM | #70
Quote: Originally Posted by Lhancelot View Post


P.S. What happened to Yillarius?
Just to answer this question. Nothing as far as I know she still post of the forums sometimes, her last post was about three weeks ago.
http://www.swtor.com/community/showp...9&postcount=14
here's my refer a friend link
http://www.swtor.com/r/QWYrwx