A day ago I decided to play a random flashpoint with my Jedi Sage(25 lvl). I queue'd, and then got Assault on Tython. But group finder didn't give us a healer, only 1 tank(he was bad) an 3 DPS guys. We wiped 3 times before the first boss. Then we couldn't kill the boss, so I had to leave.:(:mad::mad:

I think flashpoints are too hard as their are now. At the very least, give every 4 man team + 2 healers mobs so they will heal. I don't play for problems, I play for fun and dying is not fun.:mad:

And I hope you will make a flashpoint without the need for tank and healers. The way so 4 DPS or even 3DPS can manage it without dying(I don't want to die and pay for repair every time).:mad:

I hope you will make the right decision .:mad:

go healer. some tacticals are unbalanced well around all dps or dps and tank groups, but that is not definetly the case of assault on thyton and all the other instances which were designed to be tactical from their release, like korriban incursion or CZ ones, rakata, manaan. you were all bad or you were too low level to carry the others. i suggest you to go healer, l2p, or gain a few levels more, if you want to have fun. healing you should be able to do some dps aswell since from the healer's pov, tacticals are really easy compared to other content you'll face at endgame.

Did anyone use CC, stuns? Sage has Force Lift, one of the best abilities in the game.

Did any of you use the kolto stations dotted around the fight area of the first boss?

 

Did any of you follow fight mechanics or basic game mechanics (move out of red stuff, put red stuff on adds)?

 

^^ Did you check all the people in the group knew how to do the fight, did you know?

 

Did you click on gf thinking "hmmm I am level 25, might want to untick the difficult ones"? - when I was levelling my gunslinger I de-selected BH, lost island, kaon and battle of rishi. Tbh back when I was really low level I even deselected ones like tython and D7.

Edited December 24, 2015 by BobFredJohn

*** i can 2 man turhon with 2 lowbies.

Just l2p mate

Did any of you use the kolto stations dotted around the fight area of the first boss?

 

Did any of you follow fight mechanics or basic game mechanics (move out of red stuff, put red stuff on adds)?

 

^^ Did you check all the people in the group knew how to do the fight, did you know?

 

Did you click on gf thinking "hmmm I am level 25, might want to untick the difficult ones"? - when I was levelling my gunslinger I de-selected BH, lost island, kaon and battle of rishi. Tbh back when I was really low level I even deselected ones like tython and D7.

 

*** r u talking about you CANNOT queue for neith lost island or kaon on gf only for hardmode so please, a lot less drama.

*** i can 2 man turhon with 2 lowbies.

Just l2p mate

 

You are too good for this game. I bet you are a ptrofessional NIM raider.

 

Now stop pestering *true* Newbies with your 1337 skillz !

With the exception of the hardest Flashpoints (Depths of Manaan, Lost Island, Blood Hunt etc) you can beat any of the tactical flashpoints without a healer, I know because I've done it. You just need to have a group that knows what they are doing, though you can get away with one or two not having a clue as to what they are doing. Also, making sure someone stalks the kolto stations will help too, I mean that's what they're there for,, so that people can beat these bosses without a healer.

 

But if you really do want to do a FP that doesn't require another player to tank or heal....might I suggest solo FPs?

A day ago I decided to play a random flashpoint with my Jedi Sage(25 lvl). I queue'd, and then got Assault on Tython. But group finder didn't give us a healer, only 1 tank(he was bad) an 3 DPS guys. We wiped 3 times before the first boss. Then we couldn't kill the boss, so I had to leave.:(:mad::mad:

I think flashpoints are too hard as their are now. At the very least, give every 4 man team + 2 healers mobs so they will heal. I don't play for problems, I play for fun and dying is not fun.:mad:

And I hope you will make a flashpoint without the need for tank and healers. The way so 4 DPS or even 3DPS can manage it without dying(I don't want to die and pay for repair every time).:mad:

I hope you will make the right decision .:mad:

 

It's not FPs that are too hard, it's the game that doesn't require you to learn how to play it anymore.

 

Back when I started you had to learn how to do things properly. Interrupt casts, CC tough hitting mobs, focus target, use defensive cooldowns... And this was during solo content, where you rarely, if ever, were overlevelled unless you purposedly grinded a fair bit. Of course, joining in Group Content with that sort of practice made it doable, you just had to be a bit more keen on what the others were doing.

 

Now, however, people don't learn anymore. CCs are rarely used in general, interrupts too, and let's not mention the running out of enemy Area of Effect attacks... Plus, you're overlevelled even with level sync, so the game can be won just by using the auto attack with little trouble. Is it that surprising, that since Group Content requires things to be done properly most of those who go through the current solo experience can't handle it?

 

I'm not blaming you in any way, OP, but this is a perfect example of why learning gradually, rather than being thrown in with the god droid or overlevelling, is a better way to handle content IMO.

Previous posters in this thread have some good advice. Sadly this game doesn't force players to learn and use as many of their skills along the way as it used to. I offer advice below, some of it related to flashpoints and some to playing the game in general:

 

- Keep medpacs on you and don't be afraid to use them if you need to.

- Keep mastery/skill/willpower/etc stims on you and use them if you need a boost. Ditto for adrenals but I've almost never needed to use those.

- If you play a class that can either tank or heal, take some time to experiment with playing that role in addition to DPS and keep the required gear on you so you can swap to it if needed. I've needed to do this in groups several times. IMO less painful then many wipes and wasted time. I strongly recommend getting the legacy field respec ability for your toons when you can.

- Over time you get quite a bit of abilities for your toon. Take time to read them and experiment with them to determine when/if you'll ever need to use them; in particular things like interrupts, aggro dumps and defensive cooldowns.

- Watch what's going on around you and what the enemy is doing. If there's a big red circle on the ground, chances are that's bad and you should move out of it. A mob's castbar will show them casting abilities you may need to interrupt to avoid large amounts of incoming damage or other undesired effects. Some quests and mob fights are designed around this point in particular.

- Some of the above is going to require you to do some reading outside the game for best results. There are excellent game and class guides out there; check them out.

 

The above should help with both solo and group play. When grouping it's more common these days to be grouped with people that aren't as experienced with how to play their toons or with fight mechanics. Being able to hold your own when needed will help your own play experience and make group runs easier.

 

You mentioned a wide level gap in the tactical flashpoint you were in and I'll offer this from personal experience: someone at level 25 who knows their class abilities and how to use them is much more effective than someone at level 65 that hasn't taken the time to learn them.

You are too good for this game. I bet you are a ptrofessional NIM raider.

 

Now stop pestering *true* Newbies with your 1337 skillz !

 

lol good one.

 

It is always strange to me how all these pro's write L2P rather than writing "move out of red, put red on adds, use koltos, make sure everyone else knows what to do."

 

1 of those piece of advice is going to get the guy through the fight, the other is a noob trying to sound pro (hint the latter is the L2P).

Edited December 24, 2015 by BobFredJohn

lol good one.

 

It is always strange to me how all these pro's write L2P rather than writing "move out of red, put red on adds, use koltos, make sure everyone else knows what to do."

 

1 of those piece of advice is going to get the guy through the fight, the other is a noob trying to sound pro (hint the latter is the L2P).

 

Eh, yes and no. I think sometimes that is the response when a person writes with poor grammar and seems to show little inclination to actually want to improve, or unwilling to admit the problem is with their own gameplay and not the game itself. That's certainly what I got out of the OP ("I died, please give me healers so I never die, flashpoints are too hard!").

 

Newbs are bad, but they know they have a lot to learn, and they want to get better. Newbs are cool, I like helping them.

 

Noobs are bad and assume the game is too hard, don't ask questions on how to get better, want everything nerfed just so they can do it cause the game should know what they need. Noobs suck, and deserve to be told to L2P.

Eh, yes and no. I think sometimes that is the response when a person writes with poor grammar and seems to show little inclination to actually want to improve, or unwilling to admit the problem is with their own gameplay and not the game itself. That's certainly what I got out of the OP ("I died, please give me healers so I never die, flashpoints are too hard!").

 

Newbs are bad, but they know they have a lot to learn, and they want to get better. Newbs are cool, I like helping them.

 

Noobs are bad and assume the game is too hard, don't ask questions on how to get better, want everything nerfed just so they can do it cause the game should know what they need. Noobs suck, and deserve to be told to L2P.

 

Agreed, however writing l2p does not turn a noob into a nweb, giving advice might (though rarely).

 

If I meet a player who doesn't know how to do something I will explain it. If they then proceed to continue doing what they did before then stuff them, other times they get better - strangely enough since 4.0 it seems people are more willing to try things other people suggest.

 

The other reason I'm not a fan of "L2P" responses is because I didn't find them much use. For example I started pvp for the first time a couple of months back. I would get conflicting advice from different people (some said healers are wasted in defence, my opinion was if no1 else will then I will. Some people say its important to kill enemies so they are stuck waiting for the barrier from their spawn to drop, others say defend objectives and wait for them to come to us - sometimes in overwhelming force).

 

But whenever someone told me "you did that wrong" I would ask "what should I do" I would get 1 of 2 responses:

1) "L2P" - to which I reply "I'm trying to, that's why I'm asking" (usually followed by them writing L2P noob)

2) "*insert advice here*" - I would do as they suggest and if it worked better carry on doing it their way.

 

I would also judge who to listen to based upon their ability. When I saw a guardian tank hold off 5 dps enemies for about 50 seconds I decided he was worth learning from, when I saw an allied dps charge at an enemy, only for that enemy to kite them over to a group of enemies and then obliterate that dps, I tend to ignore it when they tell me "you were supposed to follow me and heal."

Edited December 24, 2015 by BobFredJohn

Agreed, however writing l2p does not turn a noob into a nweb, giving advice might (though rarely).

 

If I meet a player who doesn't know how to do something I will explain it. If they then proceed to continue doing what they did before then stuff them, other times they get better - strangely enough since 4.0 it seems people are more willing to try things other people suggest.

 

The other reason I'm not a fan of "L2P" responses is because I didn't find them much use. For example I started pvp for the first time a couple of months back. I would get conflicting advice from different people (some said healers are wasted in defence, my opinion was if no1 else will then I will. Some people say its important to kill enemies so they are stuck waiting for the barrier from their spawn to drop, others say defend objectives and wait for them to come to us - sometimes in overwhelming force).

 

But whenever someone told me "you did that wrong" I would ask "what should I do" I would get 1 of 2 responses:

1) "L2P" - to which I reply "I'm trying to, that's why I'm asking" (usually followed by them writing L2P noob)

2) "*insert advice here*" - I would do as they suggest and if it worked better carry on doing it their way.

 

I would also judge who to listen to based upon their ability. When I saw a guardian tank hold off 5 dps enemies for about 50 seconds I decided he was worth learning from, when I saw an allied dps charge at an enemy, only for that enemy to kite them over to a group of enemies and then obliterate that dps, I tend to ignore it when they tell me "you were supposed to follow me and heal."

 

Yes it does, if people dont suffer some adverse criticism, sometimes, they will never try to improve.

Also learn to play is a very valid advice here, will also be beneficial to ops self esteem apparently.

 

2 idiotos will always think they are smart and it takes one truly smart person to provide THEM the much needed contrast that they not be so smart afterall, in this case im the smart guy simply because i know pretty much all fps in the game, and no it wasnt following your approach, apparently thankfully.

These topics gnaw at me. For lack of a better word I am bewildered at the attitude expressed by the op. I remember back when I was primarily a flashpoint player and when I encountered an instance like lost island or kaon and seeing my attempts fail my first reaction was always to ask myself what I can do differently. It was never to give up and say it's too hard. Maybe it's just a lifestyle thing where I refuse to give in if something is hard in any of life's arenas. No matter what skill level you currently are in this game op you can always be better than you are in many ways. Take that advice as you may. But don't limit yourself by waving the white flag and basically giving up. Look at how you're playing and ask yourself the tough question of what can you do to improve your odds of passing those flashpoints. If you don't know something about them learn it. If you think you're not fully aware of something in the class you play find out. Don't just lay down and say it's too hard. Give yourself some credit and step up to the plate.

Agreed, however writing l2p does not turn a noob into a nweb, giving advice might (though rarely).

 

If I meet a player who doesn't know how to do something I will explain it. If they then proceed to continue doing what they did before then stuff them, other times they get better - strangely enough since 4.0 it seems people are more willing to try things other people suggest.

 

The other reason I'm not a fan of "L2P" responses is because I didn't find them much use. For example I started pvp for the first time a couple of months back. I would get conflicting advice from different people (some said healers are wasted in defence, my opinion was if no1 else will then I will. Some people say its important to kill enemies so they are stuck waiting for the barrier from their spawn to drop, others say defend objectives and wait for them to come to us - sometimes in overwhelming force).

 

But whenever someone told me "you did that wrong" I would ask "what should I do" I would get 1 of 2 responses:

1) "L2P" - to which I reply "I'm trying to, that's why I'm asking" (usually followed by them writing L2P noob)

2) "*insert advice here*" - I would do as they suggest and if it worked better carry on doing it their way.

 

I would also judge who to listen to based upon their ability. When I saw a guardian tank hold off 5 dps enemies for about 50 seconds I decided he was worth learning from, when I saw an allied dps charge at an enemy, only for that enemy to kite them over to a group of enemies and then obliterate that dps, I tend to ignore it when they tell me "you were supposed to follow me and heal."

 

This is mostly a fair post. I disagree with the idea that noobs become newbs though, that's not been my experience in 15 or so years of online gaming. Noobs are noobs, and newbs are newbs, and that's pretty much the way it goes.

 

Someone telling you L2P when you were clearly a newb, is just them being a jerk. I wouldn't do that, and I have never been that rude to someone who legit asked me for gameplay advice. OP isn't looking for advice, he's demanding flashpoints be nerfed and he be given healer companions in all flashpoints, so he never has to die, because its "annoying". OP is a noob, and I hightly doubt anything's going to change that.

I ran Assault on Tython with a 27 Sage (specced as healer, though, in a - miracle of miracles - trinity group of 1 tank, 1 healer and 2 DPS) a few days ago, and found it pretty easy.

The tank was a 22 Guardian missing some gear and with no idea how to tank (to be fair, at that level he was still missing a lot of useful/neccessary tanking skills, as well as the knowledge of how to use them).

The two DPS were a Sentinel and a Gunslinger, both in the mid-30's if memory serves, and also badly geared with no clue about the FP mechanics - they assumed that DOTs on everything and AOEs were the way to go.

Several wipes ensued, with the usual "crap healer" or "crap tank" vitriol being thrown around, until I pointed out that it was doable if everyone knew what to do. It took about 20 minutes of fast typing to explain their roles and what they needed to concentrate on, and why attacking the guy floating in the air (or popping an AOE near him) was a bad idea, and it took a bit of explaining to get them up to speed on the boss fights and enrage timers, but eventually we got through it, and all 3 seemed grateful at the end, and had a bit more of an idea about how to play when they were not able to roflstomp everything, to the point where we kept the group together and ran another FP after... ironically getting AoT again, and going through it pretty easily second time around (yes, all of us were a bit better geared after the first run, but knowing the class and FP mechanics was 95% of the improvement.

 

Sounds like OP got a similar group, but did not know enough to advise. Unfortunate for him, neither did any of the other 3 in the group. It is a shame that Bioware have made the game so "casual-friendly" now, that you do not need to know how to play your class before getting your *** handed to you in a TFP, either by group mechanics or by a badly run group, leading to those people blaming the publishers or the content for being too hard.

I will say pugging a group for blood hunt is pretty difficult when you get to the husband and wife team. The knockback is ridiculous and the damage is insane if you stack. The kolto tanks need to be near the middle otherwise you just get knocked off.

I will say pugging a group for blood hunt is pretty difficult when you get to the husband and wife team. The knockback is ridiculous and the damage is insane if you stack. The kolto tanks need to be near the middle otherwise you just get knocked off.

 

For those two...they're actually very simple. There's a few things to keep track of though, when you stack in the center break out when Joss jumps up in the air. when he lands anyone in range of him (tank will get it 100 percent of the time obviously) will get the increased damage debuff. When Valk comes down face her sweeping gunfire away from the raid. Most groups though seem to miss the debuff Joss puts out when he jumps up and back down though. When Valk drops red circles on everyone if everyone runs around you can avoid that damage since it will fall off the player in a few seconds time.

 

The position of the kolto stations is annoying I'll definitely agree there.

This is a tactical where you are likely to have 4 dps pugs, your strat won't work for that.

This is a tactical where you are likely to have 4 dps pugs, your strat won't work for that.

 

Why not? What precludes people from positioning themselves accordingly if the boss isn't targeting them?

 

edit: I was thinking more on it, and I'll be honest I haven't done a tactical in forever, but it seems like a position check. From what I remember Joss has the air strike and maul whereas Valk has the kick and sweeping gunfire. If Joss is down my first thought would be the person targeted positions themselves on the kolto station and clicks it when needed while the others dps him down and spread out for the air strike. When Valk is down the group moves to the center faces the sweeping gunfire away from the raid, and spreads on her red circle thing. When both are down I could see it being a bit more tricky but knockbacks don't happen when both are down if I remember correctly so it's a similar positional awareness check.

Edited December 26, 2015 by Shwarzchild

Just random pug with 4 dps and see how you go. If you kill them good for you but I dare say you will grab threat and go through all your defensives and your teammate will get knocked off trying to get to the kolto tanks.

Just random pug with 4 dps and see how you go. If you kill them good for you but I dare say you will grab threat and go through all your defensives and your teammate will get knocked off trying to get to the kolto tanks.

 

I'm not trying to put up a wall with you, more like ask the question of what holds groups up on it? From what I can glean from your post here is that from a positional standpoint people are in the wrong locations. Just because a group is a pug doesn't convince me that the tactical flashpoint isn't easily doable.

 

And to be honest, so what if I ripped threat? So what if you rip threat? So what if anyone rips threat if they are prepared to act when they see it happen? Panic isn't your friend, it's nobody's friend in a pve group situation.

 

What this has highlighted is that players need something else to help them understand their classes to the degree that is required for these types of instances. Maybe that means a proving ground should be developed and placed into the game. Maybe it means that all flashpoints should again be restricted to level capped players. I'm not entirely sure what the true solution would be to get players from A to B. What is obvious is that players aren't getting there. I don't know what percentage of players aren't getting there, but some aren't able to. Maybe that's just the normal curve of things i,e some will get it, some will not. Darwinism wins the day even in a video game world or something. The answer though isn't to just say "nope too hard". I can't accept that as a solution.

No what I'm saying is a lot of tacticals you can somewhat compensate for other players inability. In that fight you are reliant on others which while in theory sounds logical is somewhat redundant given you are talking about pugs. (remember pugs/casuals found the cross on underlurker in the last tier too much). Also I don't know why you talking darwanism and awareness checks to me since I did kill revan hm pre 4.0 (sorry I'm not into pumping up my own achievements but you seem to be talking as though I have a L2P noob issue) which is a far greater awareness and positional check then tactical blood hunt. I'm basically saying I think the fight is designed with a trinity in mind and that hasn't been altered for tacticals given the position of the kolto tanks. Most gf random pug 4x dps will fail this fight. As for threat well lets just say your threatdump becomes irrelevent when looking for some breathing space because you are out of cooldowns in most pug groups (you can also forget anyone taunting off you). At no point am I saying this fight is impossible but you will require far more competence then most other tacticals. Also the fact that potentially you could end up with 4 players under level 20 doing it doesn't seem right.

No what I'm saying is a lot of tacticals you can somewhat compensate for other players inability. In that fight you are reliant on others which while in theory sounds logical is somewhat redundant given you are talking about pugs. (remember pugs/casuals found the cross on underlurker in the last tier too much). Also I don't know why you talking darwanism and awareness checks to me since I did kill revan hm pre 4.0 (sorry I'm not into pumping up my own achievements but you seem to be talking as though I have a L2P noob issue) which is a far greater awareness and positional check then tactical blood hunt. I'm basically saying I think the fight is designed with a trinity in mind and that hasn't been altered for tacticals given the position of the kolto tanks. Most gf random pug 4x dps will fail this fight. As for threat well lets just say your threatdump becomes irrelevent when looking for some breathing space because you are out of cooldowns in most pug groups (you can also forget anyone taunting off you). At no point am I saying this fight is impossible but you will require far more competence then most other tacticals. Also the fact that potentially you could end up with 4 players under level 20 doing it doesn't seem right.

 

Huh? If you think I'm attacking you totally not my intention. Not even in the remotest of circumstances regardless of your in game acheivements (nice job on revan btw in 3.0 that was murderous my group couldn't get off the first floor). I'm not specifically speaking about you. Just in general the darwinism comment I made was supposed to be more of a comment that some groups will inevitably always fail. I was just thinking out loud. I thought I expressed that I was moreso wondering how players can get from A to B. A being the beginning we keep feeling im frustrated phase and B being the well cool I can get through this stuff with ease phase. Debate does not equal attacking in my book. I said I haven't done a tactical in forever so my understanding of the instances is dated. I asked why the strat wouldn't work, and what I could get from your post was that groups (not specifically you) were failing because of poor positioning. Then in my mind I went from ok well they're failing to poor positioning how can they get more aware of that kind of thing so I mentioned proving grounds or really that I had no answer to a player (not you) but in general a player who needs to learn their class.

 

You very well could be more right than me in that tweaks should be made like moving the kolto stations around to make that fight more doable. I defintely agree (I think I said it before) that the level gap is a problem. Totally agree on that point.

Edited December 26, 2015 by Shwarzchild