I know! It's one more overpowered Force power created to stupidly save the hero of fanboys in a deus ex machina approach?

Ok, lets discuss this in a civilized manner. Yes, they did too much with Revan, I will agree there. If they could have given him a heroic death in the book I would have been extremely happy with that. He was on the verge of defeating the Emperor with Meetra and Scourge, but after Scourge betrayed them, they lost. He should have died there, in a heroic last stand against the Emperor, in a battle he was about to win. THAT would be the ultimate end to a great story.

But no, they couldn't let Revan die, and so he became another *********** EU Luke Skywalker/Palpaine, living through everything and gaining so much stupid power that it became unbelievable, even in Star Wars. I really wish they would have just given him a heroic death like I mentioned, but they didn't, and so he got overplayed.

What I would like, is one last mission (republic), an operation in fact, where he fights along side the players, either visibly or "behind the scenes" and helps the player kill the Emperor, sacrificing himself to do so, binding his spirit to the Emperor's before becoming one with the Force, preventing the Emperor from switching bodies and giving Revan the death he deserves.

maybe for those who chose to follow the Revinites there should be a longer story line but for those who dont like Revan they dont have to do the story line. Also involve more rewards such as armour or cosmetics or titles for those who do chose to follow the revanites. Also maybe involve a story line destroying the revanites so you can choose which if you dont like the revanites.

All story is optional. But you're asking for them to take time creating Content for your cult. (Yes, you Revan Fanboys ARE a cult!) When BioWare could, instead, be working on a continued storyline which more of the community would enjoy.

Ok, lets discuss this in a civilized manner. Yes, they did too much with Revan, I will agree there. If they could have given him a heroic death in the book I would have been extremely happy with that. He was on the verge of defeating the Emperor with Meetra and Scourge, but after Scourge betrayed them, they lost. He should have died there, in a heroic last stand against the Emperor, in a battle he was about to win. THAT would be the ultimate end to a great story.

I agree, I just don't think he was about to win xD

But no, they couldn't let Revan die, and so he became another *********** EU Luke Skywalker/Palpaine, living through everything and gaining so much stupid power that it became unbelievable, even in Star Wars. I really wish they would have just given him a heroic death like I mentioned, but they didn't, and so he got overplayed.

Now with that, I completely disagree. Revan died at the Foundry. And he didn't become an OP mofo, he's as fallible as ever. So much so that, as I elaborated on my former post, he fell to the Dark Side again, and was shamefully defeated again, only this time for good. To me, this single flashpoint redeems a decade of idiotic, anachronistic lore hijackings introduced with KotOR 1 and 2. I forgive Bioware for the lore-crime that was KotOR 1, because now they learned to adequately read and interpret the existing lore before creating a game storyline. So the heart of the matter, what really gets the fanboys is this: they're angry because Revan's no longer the superhero. Or never was, really (mind-wiped by the Jedi? It's another stupid KotOR creation, sure, but what happened to "the Force can have a powerful influence on the weak-minded"? Was Revan weak-minded? Because being mind-wiped is just ridiculous), except in people's fanciful imaginations.

What I would like, is one last mission (republic), an operation in fact, where he fights along side the players, either visibly or "behind the scenes" and helps the player kill the Emperor, sacrificing himself to do so, binding his spirit to the Emperor's before becoming one with the Force, preventing the Emperor from switching bodies and giving Revan the death he deserves.

Revan's dead, mate. He died frothing, thinking he could commit to his usual "ends justify the means" approach regardless of cost. Let him go gracefully, while he still has some shred of an interesting and offbeat personality. He doesn't have to be a hero. The fact he was the antihero is the reason why he failed in the first place (both in the Mandalorian Wars and in the Foundry), and that's better than "the death he deserves" (the death you feel he deserves, really).

Here's the problem. This is not KotOR, this is The Old Republic. Revan's not the plot anymore (since KotOR 2, in fact!), he is instead the matter of legend (among the Jedi and the Sith - just look at the Revanites). If he turns up again and winds up saving the day, then I take back everything I said about TOR having a decent storyline right then and there, because it will be just cheesy, and showing of Bioware's desire of fawning over their own creations in an overblown manner.

Here's the problem. This is not KotOR, this is The Old Republic. Revan's not the plot anymore (since KotOR 2, in fact!), he is instead the matter of legend (among the Jedi and the Sith - just look at the Revanites). If he turns up again and winds up saving the day, then I take back everything I said about TOR having a decent storyline right then and there, because it will be just cheesy, and showing of Bioware's desire of fawning over their own creations in an overblown manner.

I actually consider that one of the perks of playing a Republic toon, I don't have to hear anything about Revan until the Foundry.

For me, it's just being jealous that "they" have something "we" don't have - I play almost exclusively Republic characters.

Plus, I found this quest series very good, especially in the sense of spiritualty - a them so alien in modern's Nerd World that it should really be in the Republic as well ...

The Republic has no quest chain that looks like that even from a far distance. Instead, we (Republic Players) learn to know the Gree ... I'd happily switch both at the second !

I'm so sick already of these unimaginative Republic quests ... If you want to have deep story lines full of Drama, like a Space Opera, then go over into the Imperial side - a clear sign of Imperial Faction favouritism in my eyes. Bah !

Revan just needs to die.

This. He's so overrated. And yes I loved KotOR.

not to mention. play the foundry. He not only fell back to the Darkside but does so in a manner that renders him a genocidal lunatic.

Besides he's dead. Only way he's coming back is via Force-Ghost...whether you're of the mind he's dead for good from the Foundry or convinced he'll be back..his physical body was destroyed.

Let Revan stay dead. We have enough Genocidal Maniacs already..in fact the Empire is filled with them.

Please no, I am so tired of hearing about Revan. Not every Star Wars game for the rest of time needs to revolve around him. It's bad enough that they had to cram him into SWTOR in spite of the fact that it's been 300 years since KotOR, let him stay dead in the Foundry.

That's the sort of lore-hijacking that makes me mad. When the creator of Revan tampered with the Bane story to stick his masked imbecile of a character as the source for the most awesome move in Sith history, the Rule of Two, I wanted to eat his liver.

I actually got into an argument pubside once, where the bloke believed that Revan had actually created the Rule of Two, rather than simply giving an account that inspired Bane to create it.

I agree, I just don't think he was about to win xD

 

 

 

Now with that, I completely disagree. Revan died at the Foundry. And he didn't become an OP mofo, he's as fallible as ever. So much so that, as I elaborated on my former post, he fell to the Dark Side again, and was shamefully defeated again, only this time for good. To me, this single flashpoint redeems a decade of idiotic, anachronistic lore hijackings introduced with KotOR 1 and 2. I forgive Bioware for the lore-crime that was KotOR 1, because now they learned to adequately read and interpret the existing lore before creating a game storyline. So the heart of the matter, what really gets the fanboys is this: they're angry because Revan's no longer the superhero. Or never was, really (mind-wiped by the Jedi? It's another stupid KotOR creation, sure, but what happened to "the Force can have a powerful influence on the weak-minded"? Was Revan weak-minded? Because being mind-wiped is just ridiculous), except in people's fanciful imaginations.

 

 

 

Revan's dead, mate. He died frothing, thinking he could commit to his usual "ends justify the means" approach regardless of cost. Let him go gracefully, while he still has some shred of an interesting and offbeat personality. He doesn't have to be a hero. The fact he was the antihero is the reason why he failed in the first place (both in the Mandalorian Wars and in the Foundry), and that's better than "the death he deserves" (the death you feel he deserves, really).

 

Here's the problem. This is not KotOR, this is The Old Republic. Revan's not the plot anymore (since KotOR 2, in fact!), he is instead the matter of legend (among the Jedi and the Sith - just look at the Revanites). If he turns up again and winds up saving the day, then I take back everything I said about TOR having a decent storyline right then and there, because it will be just cheesy, and showing of Bioware's desire of fawning over their own creations in an overblown manner.

Again, lets keep it civil here. First, I am far from a Revan fanboy. I like the character, how he was a hero, became the villain, proving he is fallible, unlike other characters (not just in Star Wars). However, he was a good character, even though he did become overrated, which I hate. But, he is definitely not my favorite character, not even close. Jango Fett, Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Mace Windu, Darth Vader (original trilogy), just to name a few. Even the Troopers, Storm, Sand, Scout, Clone, they are all above Revan on my list (I've had a Trooper obsession ever since ANH).

As far as his ending in the book, I like it "looking" like he could win, that way the reader can interpret what could have happened had Scourge not betrayed them for themselves. As far as Revan dying, he did not die. In swtor beta, he did die, however that upset a lot of "fanboys" so they changed it for the final version, bioware has even said so themselves, so they can use him later if they choose too, which you know means they will. The thing is, we like Revan, you don't, and thats ok. It's all a matter of opinion, just like I think Luke and Palpy got to OP in the EU. I like Luke, just more so before Palpatine came back, which is who I think should have stayed dead.

Now, on the subject of Revan's mind wipe, I agree with you there, but I liked the main story of KotOR. Darth Revan was a great villain, and I enjoyed the way he was portrayed as a Sith. But, I do agree the mind wipe was dumb.

I can also agree that Revan is not the hero of swtor, and I support that. However, were it not for Revan, the Sith Empire would have came and utterly destroyed the Republic. Had he not held Vitiate back, he would have attacked 300 years prior when the Republic was weakened from not one, not two, but three different wars, The Mandalorian Wars, The Jedi Civil War, and the Dark Wars with the Sith Triumvirate. Even with Meetra and the other, they wouldn't have had a chance against the Sith Empire.

So, thinking in that way I realize I gave him too big an ending. Or rather, the wrong role in his end. As I stated, Bioware said he is not dead so they can use him later, so I have thought of another way they could end his story. Since you want him to stay an antihero, perhaps he does something that would wipe out the Empire and do something else, causing both sides to go after him, or perhaps the Empire tried to kill him, while the Republic tries to save him, but arrives too late. Maybe have Satele go to save him, only to fail, thus being fallible herself. He could even become Darth Revan again, using the dark side as a necessary evil as a means to an end. That way anti-Revan people get to kill him and "fanboys" get to see him have a better death than poof of light, which again was just Fold Space, not death.

Either way, Bioware will use him again one day, hopefully not overrating him like they have been, and the fans can get a decent death out of him.

Also, if anything, I'm a Qui-Gon fanboy to the end. Hate Phantom Menace all you want, I still say he's the best Jedi ever.

The only class that really went "space opera" for me was the Smuggler.

And even that wasn't really opera. More like Midsummer's Night Dream.

But I love satire, so no complaining.

anachronistic lore hijackings introduced with KotOR 1 and 2. I forgive Bioware for the lore-crime that was KotOR 1, because now they learned to adequately read and interpret the existing lore before creating a game storyline..

Elaborate.

Exactly how is it lore-jacking?

Revan should be laid to the rest, but the existence of the Revanites does make for fascinating possibilities. Particularly if it consists of a different breed of force users wherein not everything is black and white, that there is plenty of room for grey.

I cannot understand why people get so worked up about a blank slate.

It's pretty much that, people don't like THE Revan, they like THEIR Revan. He's basically the pinnacle of self insert fanfic character evolution.

Now with that, I completely disagree. Revan died at the Foundry. And he didn't become an OP mofo, he's as fallible as ever. So much so that, as I elaborated on my former post, he fell to the Dark Side again, and was shamefully defeated again, only this time for good. To me, this single flashpoint redeems a decade of idiotic, anachronistic lore hijackings introduced with KotOR 1 and 2. I forgive Bioware for the lore-crime that was KotOR 1, because now they learned to adequately read and interpret the existing lore before creating a game storyline. So the heart of the matter, what really gets the fanboys is this: they're angry because Revan's no longer the superhero. Or never was, really (mind-wiped by the Jedi? It's another stupid KotOR creation, sure, but what happened to "the Force can have a powerful influence on the weak-minded"? Was Revan weak-minded? Because being mind-wiped is just ridiculous), except in people's fanciful imaginations.

Revan was weak minded. You sem to forget that he was seriously injured. When the Jedi boarded his ship to try and capture him, Malak opened fire in an attempt to kill his 'master' and become the new sith lord. Revan's brain was wrecked as a result of such an attack. In fact, Bastila had to use the Force to keep him alive. Once they got him back to the Jedi the Council used their powers to wipe his mind. They were able to do this ONLY because his mind was badly damaged he could not provide any resistance.

So the mind wiping makes perfect sense and works great. I just want to add that I am only a fan of the Revan I played in the game, the one I created and RP'ed. The true Revan is over-rated and not a character I like much. I am not defending the character, but I did have to point out that the mind wipe incident makes a lot more sense than you think it does.

Elaborate.

 

Exactly how is it lore-jacking?

 

Revan should be laid to the rest, but the existence of the Revanites does make for fascinating possibilities. Particularly if it consists of a different breed of force users wherein not everything is black and white, that there is plenty of room for grey.

Have you read the whole statement? KotOR is filled with lore-hijackings, TOR is not. I will explain, in a very long post elsewhere, is it is unecessary to illustrate the point to contribute with the topic. Suffice to say the KotOR plot is filled not only with hijackings, but with inconsistencies and internal strains and loopholes that prompt me to peg it as a festering open wound upon the EU, better to never have existed. This may sound biased, (I don't really care that it does), but it actually has some ground, so bear with the above statement of my opinion (in case I need to justify just dropping it there, I can ***** about K1 and K2 for hours, but that has nothing to do with the topic, and I will be sure to soon create a fitting topic to get that out of my chest in an apporpriate manner xD)

So, to me, SWTOR is Bioware's delayed (and overly expensive!) apology to the decade-worth of lore-hijackings and butchery, and one of the best examples of this is the Revanite cult. With this, unlike with KotOR1, BW showed that they can take a previous event, and actually create a very plausible outcome that would emerge a long time after the true events have come and gone. It is late, so I am talking in circles. But let me explain xD

The Revanite is a personality cult born from the misinterpretation of the historical role of a long-gone figure. In short, they took the real story, twisted it about and created a veritable religion from it. But they were misguided in truth, and their view of their "god" was not accurate (as Revan himself states at the Foundry, if the Revanite cult is mentioned). And the very fact you can choose their destiny - to either aid them or thwart them (in contrast with KotOR 2, where you must stand and hear a crazy nutty old bat whine to no end about how Revan was always right even when he was wrong and that all your character accomplishes Revan would do better and how the only way for you to show quality is if you follow him because he knows what's what you have to follow him) - makes the Revanite quest a welcome addition to SWTOR, because it is a very minor plot element, of much less importance than the actual SWTOR plot - which is the Cold War between Empire and Republic.

For that particular reason, I believe that further Revanite-related quests, if approached correctly (as I think the DK Revanite quests were), would not be something to complain about. Maybe they could shoot a planet whose generic planet-story quests could revolve around the remnants of the Revanites, and the players once again get to choose - either to seal the lid of the casket, or to consolidate their place amongst the heretics in the Sith Empire.

But more Revan content? Hell no. It is an unfortunate decision Bioware decided to provide that sort of fan service (though it is interesting for the single reason because it debunks the "gray Jedi Revan" theory quite efficiently), and the presence of Revan in TOR prompted Karpyshyn to write that novel (which killed the character to many people who actually liked the KotOR 2 depiction of Revan through Traya's words) in order to link KotOR 2 to TOR.

But before I saw any more Revan content, or even Revanite content... BW already left so many unexplored plot hooks that would play off into new and awesome, galaxy-shaking events. Take one of the statements made by Gnost-Dural during the timeline videos - where he theorises Vitiate's Empire is really at odds with ancient Sith spirits as Marka Ragnos (which could be taken as a truer, purer form of Sith tradition than Vitiate's own, which changed consistently to incorporate a cult to Vitiate's own personality above all else). Another plot line that was left too loose was Darth Nox's own cult - more quests in that regard (class-sidequests, why not?) would be a welcome addition. I only played the Sorceror through to the end, so I don't know about other classes, but I am sure there are some loose ends I would much rather see Bioware approach than just feeding the fanboys with more Revan-related content.

It's pretty much that, people don't like THE Revan, they like THEIR Revan. He's basically the pinnacle of self insert fanfic character evolution.

That's a sad statement. I leave the judgement as to whether it is true or not to others, but, Hell! Revan was their Revan, now he's a plot element, a bloody NPC. Their character, look at that, is their actual MMO toon. Do they not shape them as they like too? I know I do. But people hoped they could recreate and play as Revan again? Sad, just sad. Puerile.

Have you read the whole statement? KotOR is filled with lore-hijackings, TOR is not. I will explain, in a very long post elsewhere, is it is unecessary to illustrate the point to contribute with the topic. Suffice to say the KotOR plot is filled not only with hijackings, but with inconsistencies and internal strains and loopholes that prompt me to peg it as a festering open wound upon the EU, better to never have existed. This may sound biased, (I don't really care that it does), but it actually has some ground, so bear with the above statement of my opinion (in case I need to justify just dropping it there, I can ***** about K1 and K2 for hours, but that has nothing to do with the topic, and I will be sure to soon create a fitting topic to get that out of my chest in an apporpriate manner xD)

 

So, to me, SWTOR is Bioware's delayed (and overly expensive!) apology to the decade-worth of lore-hijackings and butchery, and one of the best examples of this is the Revanite cult. With this, unlike with KotOR1, BW showed that they can take a previous event, and actually create a very plausible outcome that would emerge a long time after the true events have come and gone. It is late, so I am talking in circles. But let me explain xD

 

The Revanite is a personality cult born from the misinterpretation of the historical role of a long-gone figure. In short, they took the real story, twisted it about and created a veritable religion from it. But they were misguided in truth, and their view of their "god" was not accurate (as Revan himself states at the Foundry, if the Revanite cult is mentioned). And the very fact you can choose their destiny - to either aid them or thwart them (in contrast with KotOR 2, where you must stand and hear a crazy nutty old bat whine to no end about how Revan was always right even when he was wrong and that all your character accomplishes Revan would do better and how the only way for you to show quality is if you follow him because he knows what's what you have to follow him) - makes the Revanite quest a welcome addition to SWTOR, because it is a very minor plot element, of much less importance than the actual SWTOR plot - which is the Cold War between Empire and Republic.

 

For that particular reason, I believe that further Revanite-related quests, if approached correctly (as I think the DK Revanite quests were), would not be something to complain about. Maybe they could shoot a planet whose generic planet-story quests could revolve around the remnants of the Revanites, and the players once again get to choose - either to seal the lid of the casket, or to consolidate their place amongst the heretics in the Sith Empire.

 

But more Revan content? Hell no. It is an unfortunate decision Bioware decided to provide that sort of fan service (though it is interesting for the single reason because it debunks the "gray Jedi Revan" theory quite efficiently), and the presence of Revan in TOR prompted Karpyshyn to write that novel (which killed the character to many people who actually liked the KotOR 2 depiction of Revan through Traya's words) in order to link KotOR 2 to TOR.

 

But before I saw any more Revan content, or even Revanite content... BW already left so many unexplored plot hooks that would play off into new and awesome, galaxy-shaking events. Take one of the statements made by Gnost-Dural during the timeline videos - where he theorises Vitiate's Empire is really at odds with ancient Sith spirits as Marka Ragnos (which could be taken as a truer, purer form of Sith tradition than Vitiate's own, which changed consistently to incorporate a cult to Vitiate's own personality above all else). Another plot line that was left too loose was Darth Nox's own cult - more quests in that regard (class-sidequests, why not?) would be a welcome addition. I only played the Sorceror through to the end, so I don't know about other classes, but I am sure there are some loose ends I would much rather see Bioware approach than just feeding the fanboys with more Revan-related content.

 

 

 

That's a sad statement. I leave the judgement as to whether it is true or not to others, but, Hell! Revan was their Revan, now he's a plot element, a bloody NPC. Their character, look at that, is their actual MMO toon. Do they not shape them as they like too? I know I do. But people hoped they could recreate and play as Revan again? Sad, just sad. Puerile.

Wow. Yeah, dude, yeah. You're saying everything I've been thinking for a long, long time. I'm in total agreeance with just about everything you've been saying. I just wish they would kill him off for good sooner than later.

But more Revan content? Hell no. It is an unfortunate decision Bioware decided to provide that sort of fan service (though it is interesting for the single reason because it debunks the "gray Jedi Revan" theory quite efficiently), and the presence of Revan in TOR prompted Karpyshyn to write that novel (which killed the character to many people who actually liked the KotOR 2 depiction of Revan through Traya's words) in order to link KotOR 2 to TOR.

 

But before I saw any more Revan content, or even Revanite content... BW already left so many unexplored plot hooks that would play off into new and awesome, galaxy-shaking events. Take one of the statements made by Gnost-Dural during the timeline videos - where he theorises Vitiate's Empire is really at odds with ancient Sith spirits as Marka Ragnos (which could be taken as a truer, purer form of Sith tradition than Vitiate's own, which changed consistently to incorporate a cult to Vitiate's own personality above all else). Another plot line that was left too loose was Darth Nox's own cult - more quests in that regard (class-sidequests, why not?) would be a welcome addition. I only played the Sorceror through to the end, so I don't know about other classes, but I am sure there are some loose ends I would much rather see Bioware approach than just feeding the fanboys with more Revan-related content.

 

 

 

That's a sad statement. I leave the judgement as to whether it is true or not to others, but, Hell! Revan was their Revan, now he's a plot element, a bloody NPC. Their character, look at that, is their actual MMO toon. Do they not shape them as they like too? I know I do. But people hoped they could recreate and play as Revan again? Sad, just sad. Puerile.

I actually agree with a lot of this. First, I really liked Revan, when he was how we interpreted him, and how he was a "legend of his time". That said, I hate that he is in TOR. It really did kill Revan for me and a lot of others, spawning the Revan haters we have today. While I am glad we have a book explaining what happened to him after KotOR I'm not exactly in agreement with how he was portrayed. Personally, I think the book should have been about his fall, and somehow explain differently how he prevented the Emperor from attacking for 300 years.

As far as the Cults go, YES to more Darth Nox cult missions.

The thing about Vitiate and Marka Ragnos, I think it would be cool if instead of the Jedi killing Vitiate, the Sith did it themselves, either Darth Nox, Darth Marr, or even the spirit of Marka Ragnos or Tulak Hord would make for an interesting ending, going along with the lore that Sith destroy each other. Ironically, Nox is now more immortal than Vitiate, so how the hell does that work? And how does/will Nox ever die?

I actually agree with a lot of this. First, I really liked Revan, when he was how we interpreted him, and how he was a "legend of his time". That said, I hate that he is in TOR. It really did kill Revan for me and a lot of others, spawning the Revan haters we have today. While I am glad we have a book explaining what happened to him after KotOR I'm not exactly in agreement with how he was portrayed. Personally, I think the book should have been about his fall, and somehow explain differently how he prevented the Emperor from attacking for 300 years.

 

As far as the Cults go, YES to more Darth Nox cult missions.

 

The thing about Vitiate and Marka Ragnos, I think it would be cool if instead of the Jedi killing Vitiate, the Sith did it themselves, either Darth Nox, Darth Marr, or even the spirit of Marka Ragnos or Tulak Hord would make for an interesting ending, going along with the lore that Sith destroy each other. Ironically, Nox is now more immortal than Vitiate, so how the hell does that work? And how does/will Nox ever die?

Quite honestly, whatever explanation for Vitiate not attacking they could give (both the one that was effectively given, and the ones they could/should have given) would not be believable, because the KotOR plot has so many loopholes. Regardless of Revan, Vitiate should have attacked during the events of KotOR 2, when the Republic was in disarray and there was no Jedi Order to protect it. The reason he did not is a mystery, a stretch and a majour loophole. So that situation really could not be salvaged in a believable manner.

But on the case of Sith destroying Sith, I would oppose that spelling doom for Vitiate and his empire, seeing as that is what ends the New Sith, and that pertains to the prophecy of the Sith'ari, the Dark Lord that would rise, destroy and recreate the Sith in his own fashion. Darth Bane fills that role, so he's got the dibs on that approach. I would much rather see the relationship with Vitiate's Empire and the true Old Sith Empire developped, crippling the Sith Empire, but its final end should come at the hands of the Jedi. It would be a nice closing, too, since all the other wars in the Old Sith Wars were ended by the deeds of the Jedi.

Quite honestly, whatever explanation for Vitiate not attacking they could give (both the one that was effectively given, and the ones they could/should have given) would not be believable, because the KotOR plot has so many loopholes. Regardless of Revan, Vitiate should have attacked during the events of KotOR 2, when the Republic was in disarray and there was no Jedi Order to protect it. The reason he did not is a mystery, a stretch and a majour loophole. So that situation really could not be salvaged in a believable manner.

 

But on the case of Sith destroying Sith, I would oppose that spelling doom for Vitiate and his empire, seeing as that is what ends the New Sith, and that pertains to the prophecy of the Sith'ari, the Dark Lord that would rise, destroy and recreate the Sith in his own fashion. Darth Bane fills that role, so he's got the dibs on that approach. I would much rather see the relationship with Vitiate's Empire and the true Old Sith Empire developped, crippling the Sith Empire, but its final end should come at the hands of the Jedi. It would be a nice closing, too, since all the other wars in the Old Sith Wars were ended by the deeds of the Jedi.

That's why it should be destroyed by the Sith, or at least caused by something a Sith/multiple Sith did. The problem is they made too many of their characters too op. Vitiate, immortal. Nox, immortal. Revan, never dying. Scourge, immortal. That in itself causes inconsistencies.

That's why it should be destroyed by the Sith, or at least caused by something a Sith/multiple Sith did. The problem is they made too many of their characters too op. Vitiate, immortal. Nox, immortal. Revan, never dying. Scourge, immortal. That in itself causes inconsistencies.

Vitiate doesn't die of old age. Truly immortal? Not quite. After his defeat at the Dark Temple, in fact, his own vulnerabilities are thrown into stark relief, and the Empire he so painstakingly built begins to fall apart, with Malgus and the Dread Masters rebelling, and (high hopes mode on) the true Old Sith showing their ugly faces again...

No indication that Darth Nox is immortal, even with his powers. One who knows what he is up against could succeed in killing him (say, the Barsen'thor, who knows how to deal with ghosts and their proxies, or powerful Sith that use ghosts for power too, by extension).

Revan never dying has not been proven fact yet, and (high hopes mode on again) these expectations will be debunked soon. Anyhow, the only thing that kept him alive beyond his time was Vitiate, and now Vitiate has no more interest in doing so. Ergo, his death is soon to come, even if he resurfaces.

And Scourge... well, I don't know to what extent he remains immortal after his rebellion (never played through JK story to learn more about him, so...). Besides, despite his undying status (different from true immortality, that doesn't die and can't be killed), his power isn't the greatest, and he is also committed to the defeat of Vitiate.

Have you read the whole statement? KotOR is filled with lore-hijackings, TOR is not. I will explain, in a very long post elsewhere, is it is unecessary to illustrate the point to contribute with the topic.

lol All that, and all I wanted to know was how Kotor was guilty of "lore-jacking". As this discussion is largely moot anyway, the anti-Revan people having beaten this topic over the head.

See, in LOTRO, I understood why people were so incredibly severe about "lore" it being based on a the works of a great writer at least (which Lucas is not and never would have been. IF there'd ever been a 3 Stooges game, would there be 3 Stooges lore). But I don't understand it in this game which is based first off a comic book series (do people really take those seriously), and then off 2 games LOOSELY based on that series, but all of it owned by the the same copyright holder and ostensibly blessed by The Lucas and now Disney. Isn't "lore" what they say it is? Honest questions here. I hope this doesn't constitute thread-jacking.

Vitiate doesn't die of old age. Truly immortal? Not quite. After his defeat at the Dark Temple, in fact, his own vulnerabilities are thrown into stark relief, and the Empire he so painstakingly built begins to fall apart, with Malgus and the Dread Masters rebelling, and (high hopes mode on) the true Old Sith showing their ugly faces again...

 

No indication that Darth Nox is immortal, even with his powers. One who knows what he is up against could succeed in killing him (say, the Barsen'thor, who knows how to deal with ghosts and their proxies, or powerful Sith that use ghosts for power too, by extension).

 

Revan never dying has not been proven fact yet, and (high hopes mode on again) these expectations will be debunked soon. Anyhow, the only thing that kept him alive beyond his time was Vitiate, and now Vitiate has no more interest in doing so. Ergo, his death is soon to come, even if he resurfaces.

 

And Scourge... well, I don't know to what extent he remains immortal after his rebellion (never played through JK story to learn more about him, so...). Besides, despite his undying status (different from true immortality, that doesn't die and can't be killed), his power isn't the greatest, and he is also committed to the defeat of Vitiate.

I said "immortal" meaning they won't die of old age, not "invincible" meaning they can't be killed. Big difference. Vitiate is proven immortal in the Revan book. Nox is more "invincible" than "immortal". Because he has bound those spirits to his own, he is essentially "dead" as he is now tied to the "spirit world", so if he is already "dead" then he cannot be killed.

The reason I mentioned Revan is because no matter what he lives through everything. He will be brought back over and over and survive every encounter, becoming as op as Luke in the EU.

As for Scourge, Vitiate used some of his power to make him immortal the same way he did, although because it was a cheap version of the ritual he used on himself, Scourge is in constant pain. And if you read up on Scourge, he is in fact pretty powerful, even without being immortal.

As this discussion is largely moot anyway, the anti-Revan people having beaten this topic over the head.

^ this

lol All that, and all I wanted to know was how Kotor was guilty of "lore-jacking". As this discussion is largely moot anyway, the anti-Revan people having beaten this topic over the head.

 

See, in LOTRO, I understood why people were so incredibly severe about "lore" it being based on a the works of a great writer at least (which Lucas is not and never would have been. IF there'd ever been a 3 Stooges game, would there be 3 Stooges lore). But I don't understand it in this game which is based first off a comic book series (do people really take those seriously), and then off 2 games LOOSELY based on that series, but all of it owned by the the same copyright holder and ostensibly blessed by The Lucas and now Disney. Isn't "lore" what they say it is? Honest questions here. I hope this doesn't constitute thread-jacking.

I don't care about any supposed 'lore-jacking'. I care about about people obsessing over "SUPER REVAN!!" being the absolute center of the Universe forever. We all ready had one game where we played Revan, and another where we played his confidante who went off to find him. It's 300 years later, can we move on please? NOPE!!! Revan is stll the key to everything, singlehandedly holding the Empire at bay and keeping the Emperor in check, blah blah blah.

Revan's horse is dead and rotting, can we stop beating it and let him rest in peace finally?

lol All that, and all I wanted to know was how Kotor was guilty of "lore-jacking". As this discussion is largely moot anyway, the anti-Revan people having beaten this topic over the head.

 

See, in LOTRO, I understood why people were so incredibly severe about "lore" it being based on a the works of a great writer at least (which Lucas is not and never would have been. IF there'd ever been a 3 Stooges game, would there be 3 Stooges lore). But I don't understand it in this game which is based first off a comic book series (do people really take those seriously), and then off 2 games LOOSELY based on that series, but all of it owned by the the same copyright holder and ostensibly blessed by The Lucas and now Disney. Isn't "lore" what they say it is? Honest questions here. I hope this doesn't constitute thread-jacking.

As I said, kid, KotOR's lore-hijacks do not pertain to this topic so directly, so I won't be posting them here. Actually, the fact people expected SWTOR to be all about Revan, or that Bioware should make Revan fans happy by giving them plenty of Revan content just to satisfy them simply shows that fans don't give two craps about lore-hijacks, so long as it is Revan or another of the frightening spawns of the KotOR series doing the hijacking. Gladly, Bioware feels otherwise, or so it seems, and they worked very hard to make this game not about Revan. Where quality and consistency is concerned, both of the portrayed Galaxy and the story, SWTOR >> kotor.

Just because the owners of the franchise say what's lore and what's not does not mean that: I. I have to like it. I don't like half the crap that the EU spawns, and neither should any cerebral creature do so if he has the brains in the right place. If I were the lore-boss, none of that would have passed. But I'm not, all that is lore, and all I can do is highlight how that sort of thing makes the Star Wars universe more stupid. II. That the "new lore" that came with this very profitable venture (such as a videogame is) does not contradict several sources of EU lore that predated it.

So yeah. What pays more becomes the lore, and unfortunately for the cerebral beings, KotOR paid more so now we must suffer through Revan time and again, even when Bioware showed they were well intent and willing to move beyond Revan as they should.

And how is Star Wars different to Lord of the Rings? Tolkien only made the (more correct) decision to not let other authors interfere with his work, and so the world of Arda has retained (at least until Tolkien's death) its purity and internal consistency. But Lucas chose to open his universe to anyone who wanted to write about it, then we get aberrations such as Boba Fett and Darth Sidious surviving/coming back to life, Sith Lords who can eat worlds and Revan. What was the end result of the openness of the EU? Much good stuff was created (like much of TOR when you take away the clichès and absurdities, including Vitiate), but all internal consistency of the universe was lost for it. So it can never truly compare to the universe of The Lord of the Rings in consistency, depth and quality. All that it will surpass LotR in is in having a longer story.

Just on a sidenote, SWTOR wasn't "based off some comic book series". The comics were released after the storyline of SWTOR was already written and decided upon, and just before the game itself was released.