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Innovative Ordinance VS Arsenal: A pvp perspective

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Commando / Mercenary
Innovative Ordinance VS Arsenal: A pvp perspective

TyrellJonez's Avatar


TyrellJonez
01.09.2020 , 01:39 AM | #1
I've seen quite a few posts asking which is better for pvp and what to take for tacticals and sets. So a little background on me before i begin:

i was here from beta until i think 4.0. I witnessed the terrible nerf of arsenal in 1.1 until the rise once again a year or so later. I took a 2 year break and i'm back now enjoying the game on many levels.

So, which is better? It depends. If you are new to the class, take Arsenal. Its got lots of tools and a very easy rotation. If you survived our epic nerf and soldiered on, picking up the skills you need to at least make a difference in pvp, go IO.

WHY?

IO doesn't need LoS to do its damage. It has a ton of dots and many players forget that we can self heal. So you can DoT and heal or just avoid that pesky sniper fire from 40m.

The Concentrated Fire set (4) Gaining a stack of Supercharge increases your critical chance by 10% for 10 seconds. This effect can only occur once every 10 seconds. (6) Doing damage or healing an ally has a 10% chance to build a Supercharge and can only happen once per 3 seconds. After activating Supercharged Gas, your next Rail Shot or Mag Shot critically hits.

AND

Energzier The duration of Supercharge Gas and Supercharged Burn are doubled.

Mean your supercharged Gas is up very often. If you put your basic Dot+Incendiary missile +Serrated Shot on a target they will burn pretty darn fast. Add in Electronet and you have a helpless burning target. If you want to make sure even a juggaraut dies, take the talent Bag and Tag and just about anything that cannot purge dots will be burning to death, running for a healer or both. remember at 30% your dots do crazy more damage AND as long as you keep fighting you get a 10% crit chance bonus. I have my crit chance sitting at 58% most of the time and trust me, it buurrrrnnnnssss.

Also you have great tools like if you take the talent that makes missile blast a root its a great way to keep your targets from getting too far from your fire. Between rocket out and missile blast you should control the fight distance wise.

So why IO over Arsenal? Arsenal's main advantage is high Armor pen. that only works on 3 classes with any significance: Other mercs, PTs and Juggs. Sorcs, Imperial Agents and Maras all have less armor and better ways to mitigate your damage. Mercs, Maras, Juggs, and even IA have a reflect. You know what they can't reflect? Dots. Dot em up, and when you see them reflecting, just stop dps and heal yourself. Arsenal does have the benefit of being able to really make use of concussion missle with Power surge x2 without disrupting its dps too much though, so theres that.

Arsenal's tacticals seem lackluster to me. Thermo Nuclear Fusion is HIGHLY situational and makes you use fusion missle which has been nerfed into utter garbage. Atleast Missile blast can root AND for IO it can execute with a cheaper cost. Missile blast > Fusion Missle. Burning shot is a higher overall dps gain BUT...Arsenal isn't a dot class. Any healer can heal through its dot .Priming bolts can make priming shot hit HARD. BUT...with a 15 second CD it doesn't add enough damage for my tastes.

Heres one Caveat: IO is much harder to master. You have to be aware of dot timers and be VERY careful with heat management. Its far more difficult to master but once you get it, you can rain fire upon thine enemies!

So thats my take on it. If you have anything to add, feel free. IO Merc for life. This is the way.
This is the way.

BonnerFett's Avatar


BonnerFett
01.09.2020 , 07:47 AM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by TyrellJonez View Post
I've seen quite a few posts asking which is better for pvp and what to take for tacticals and sets. So a little background on me before i begin:

i was here from beta until i think 4.0. I witnessed the terrible nerf of arsenal in 1.1 until the rise once again a year or so later. I took a 2 year break and i'm back now enjoying the game on many levels.

So, which is better? It depends. If you are new to the class, take Arsenal. Its got lots of tools and a very easy rotation. If you survived our epic nerf and soldiered on, picking up the skills you need to at least make a difference in pvp, go IO.

WHY?

IO doesn't need LoS to do its damage. It has a ton of dots and many players forget that we can self heal. So you can DoT and heal or just avoid that pesky sniper fire from 40m.

The Concentrated Fire set (4) Gaining a stack of Supercharge increases your critical chance by 10% for 10 seconds. This effect can only occur once every 10 seconds. (6) Doing damage or healing an ally has a 10% chance to build a Supercharge and can only happen once per 3 seconds. After activating Supercharged Gas, your next Rail Shot or Mag Shot critically hits.

AND

Energzier The duration of Supercharge Gas and Supercharged Burn are doubled.

Mean your supercharged Gas is up very often. If you put your basic Dot+Incendiary missile +Serrated Shot on a target they will burn pretty darn fast. Add in Electronet and you have a helpless burning target. If you want to make sure even a juggaraut dies, take the talent Bag and Tag and just about anything that cannot purge dots will be burning to death, running for a healer or both. remember at 30% your dots do crazy more damage AND as long as you keep fighting you get a 10% crit chance bonus. I have my crit chance sitting at 58% most of the time and trust me, it buurrrrnnnnssss.

Also you have great tools like if you take the talent that makes missile blast a root its a great way to keep your targets from getting too far from your fire. Between rocket out and missile blast you should control the fight distance wise.

So why IO over Arsenal? Arsenal's main advantage is high Armor pen. that only works on 3 classes with any significance: Other mercs, PTs and Juggs. Sorcs, Imperial Agents and Maras all have less armor and better ways to mitigate your damage. Mercs, Maras, Juggs, and even IA have a reflect. You know what they can't reflect? Dots. Dot em up, and when you see them reflecting, just stop dps and heal yourself. Arsenal does have the benefit of being able to really make use of concussion missle with Power surge x2 without disrupting its dps too much though, so theres that.

Arsenal's tacticals seem lackluster to me. Thermo Nuclear Fusion is HIGHLY situational and makes you use fusion missle which has been nerfed into utter garbage. Atleast Missile blast can root AND for IO it can execute with a cheaper cost. Missile blast > Fusion Missle. Burning shot is a higher overall dps gain BUT...Arsenal isn't a dot class. Any healer can heal through its dot .Priming bolts can make priming shot hit HARD. BUT...with a 15 second CD it doesn't add enough damage for my tastes.

Heres one Caveat: IO is much harder to master. You have to be aware of dot timers and be VERY careful with heat management. Its far more difficult to master but once you get it, you can rain fire upon thine enemies!

So thats my take on it. If you have anything to add, feel free. IO Merc for life. This is the way.
Really great. I'm going to play IO, I feel it's more fun. Arsenal gets boring for me. What Amps are you using with IO for PVP?

This post has inspired me.
Thank you!

TyrellJonez's Avatar


TyrellJonez
01.09.2020 , 02:22 PM | #3
Because i know it can get expensive and i'm saving up for that challenge, I just go with basic ones that benefit me in any way. Example: + periodic intensity, tech attacks, etc. Since i'm probably gunna stay IO, i'd go for periodic intensity. Burn the hottest. i'm thinking when i reach around 50 mil i'll start actually looking to make it work better for accurate results.
This is the way.

BonnerFett's Avatar


BonnerFett
01.10.2020 , 10:29 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by TyrellJonez View Post
Because i know it can get expensive and i'm saving up for that challenge, I just go with basic ones that benefit me in any way. Example: + periodic intensity, tech attacks, etc. Since i'm probably gunna stay IO, i'd go for periodic intensity. Burn the hottest. i'm thinking when i reach around 50 mil i'll start actually looking to make it work better for accurate results.
Have you tried solo ranked with this setup?

roupe's Avatar


roupe
01.10.2020 , 03:41 PM | #5
I don't see a lot of IO mercs in solo ranked.
Maybe they are that strong but i'm not sure.

You didn't talk about a big strength of arsenal, which is healing/ off-healing. Arsenal can do between one and three Tracer Missiles then throw a potent heal which helps a LOT in this meta, in 3 or 4 dps games. And in tank+heal games, you rail shot more and still do decent damage.
Your talk about tacticals is also lackluster : in ranked you want to use life warden in at least the last round, so you can't use IO super tactical. And you also missed a great tactical for arsenal, which is Running Rapid Restoration : 10% more healing plus you can heal while moving, which is just great.

As I said, i am not sure, I am not an IO player at all. Damage seems brutal yeah, but I will only consider trying it if you convince me healing is at least on par with Arsenal, because in this meta, we mercs lost a lot of survivability. healing is much more important than before IMO.

SlimPikinz's Avatar


SlimPikinz
01.10.2020 , 05:16 PM | #6
I actually prefer IO in PvP over Arsenal but without the set bonus yet, my kill pressure is not very high in IO. I used to be able to melt any class with a high DoT / burst combo which would usually catch people off guard and they wouldn't even use a DCD. Incendiary Missile -> Mag Shot -> Serrated Shot -> Electro Net -> Thermal Detonator -> Supercharged Gas -> Full Auto -> Mag Shot -> Missile Blast execute spam. You clip the Full Auto to land the Mag Shot before Detonator explodes to proc the additional DoT. This combo used to get my so many kills, it was more reliable than Arsenal combo.

Until I get the Concentrated Fire Set, I'll probably remain Arsenal. Once I'm ready for Ranked, I will switch to IO. In my opinion, IO Chaff Flare is far superior than Arsenal Chaff Flare. Also, IO doesn't require you to take Thrill of the Hunt utility so you can take the AOE and Stun Damage Reduction Utility.

I played a lot of IO in Ranked last season and came to the conclusion of the following:
IO is better in 4v4 DPS and 3DPS 1 Tank matches while Arsenal was better in 3 DPS 1 Healer matches
IO Chaff Flare is better than Arsenal Chaff Flare
Arsenal off-healing is better than IO off-healing

I do not like tacticals for either spec. The 2 main Arsenal ones are tied to Priming Shot, which is useless if it misses. I only have 1 IO tactical at the moment, increased damage / duration on Supercharged DoT but it doesn't seem quite impactful for me just yet.

Gyronamics's Avatar


Gyronamics
01.10.2020 , 05:34 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by SlimPikinz View Post
I actually prefer IO in PvP over Arsenal but without the set bonus yet, my kill pressure is not very high in IO. I used to be able to melt any class with a high DoT / burst combo which would usually catch people off guard and they wouldn't even use a DCD. Incendiary Missile -> Mag Shot -> Serrated Shot -> Electro Net -> Thermal Detonator -> Supercharged Gas -> Full Auto -> Mag Shot -> Missile Blast execute spam. You clip the Full Auto to land the Mag Shot before Detonator explodes to proc the additional DoT. This combo used to get my so many kills, it was more reliable than Arsenal combo.

Until I get the Concentrated Fire Set, I'll probably remain Arsenal. Once I'm ready for Ranked, I will switch to IO. In my opinion, IO Chaff Flare is far superior than Arsenal Chaff Flare. Also, IO doesn't require you to take Thrill of the Hunt utility so you can take the AOE and Stun Damage Reduction Utility.

I played a lot of IO in Ranked last season and came to the conclusion of the following:
IO is better in 4v4 DPS and 3DPS 1 Tank matches while Arsenal was better in 3 DPS 1 Healer matches
IO Chaff Flare is better than Arsenal Chaff Flare
Arsenal off-healing is better than IO off-healing

I do not like tacticals for either spec. The 2 main Arsenal ones are tied to Priming Shot, which is useless if it misses. I only have 1 IO tactical at the moment, increased damage / duration on Supercharged DoT but it doesn't seem quite impactful for me just yet.
What is this spam you talk of.

DoT on a target below 30% procs Missile Blast making it cost 10 instead of 20 and increasing damage.

But this has a 15s cooldown. Any kind of spam will have you firing Missile Blasts at 20 cost with no increased damage which is absolute trash in the context of IO and its tight resources and in terms of damage.

Actually while I'm here, it has never been necessary to detonate Thermal Detonator early to get the DoT so you can stop clipping Unload. It has always ignored the tooltip and put a DoT on the target whether it explodes early or not.
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TyrellJonez's Avatar


TyrellJonez
01.11.2020 , 05:04 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by roupe View Post
I don't see a lot of IO mercs in solo ranked.
Maybe they are that strong but i'm not sure.

You didn't talk about a big strength of arsenal, which is healing/ off-healing. Arsenal can do between one and three Tracer Missiles then throw a potent heal which helps a LOT in this meta, in 3 or 4 dps games. And in tank+heal games, you rail shot more and still do decent damage.
Your talk about tacticals is also lackluster : in ranked you want to use life warden in at least the last round, so you can't use IO super tactical. And you also missed a great tactical for arsenal, which is Running Rapid Restoration : 10% more healing plus you can heal while moving, which is just great.

As I said, i am not sure, I am not an IO player at all. Damage seems brutal yeah, but I will only consider trying it if you convince me healing is at least on par with Arsenal, because in this meta, we mercs lost a lot of survivability. healing is much more important than before IMO.
Ah you make a very good point! My post is reffering to regular warzones! I do not do ranked as I do not find it enjoyable! Very big difference in selection when considering the diference! I do not have to convince you or anyone of anything. This is for players who are asking which spec to take for pvp and I should have specified i mean for warzone pvp!

Quote: Originally Posted by SlimPikinz View Post
I actually prefer IO in PvP over Arsenal but without the set bonus yet, my kill pressure is not very high in IO. I used to be able to melt any class with a high DoT / burst combo which would usually catch people off guard and they wouldn't even use a DCD. Incendiary Missile -> Mag Shot -> Serrated Shot -> Electro Net -> Thermal Detonator -> Supercharged Gas -> Full Auto -> Mag Shot -> Missile Blast execute spam. You clip the Full Auto to land the Mag Shot before Detonator explodes to proc the additional DoT. This combo used to get my so many kills, it was more reliable than Arsenal combo.

Until I get the Concentrated Fire Set, I'll probably remain Arsenal. Once I'm ready for Ranked, I will switch to IO. In my opinion, IO Chaff Flare is far superior than Arsenal Chaff Flare. Also, IO doesn't require you to take Thrill of the Hunt utility so you can take the AOE and Stun Damage Reduction Utility.

I played a lot of IO in Ranked last season and came to the conclusion of the following:
IO is better in 4v4 DPS and 3DPS 1 Tank matches while Arsenal was better in 3 DPS 1 Healer matches
IO Chaff Flare is better than Arsenal Chaff Flare
Arsenal off-healing is better than IO off-healing

I do not like tacticals for either spec. The 2 main Arsenal ones are tied to Priming Shot, which is useless if it misses. I only have 1 IO tactical at the moment, increased damage / duration on Supercharged DoT but it doesn't seem quite impactful for me just yet.
Theres a bit to unpack here so i'll do my best to address what i can! =)

First is rotation. For IO timing is crucial. You want maximum uptime of all your dots while maintaining pressure AND managing heat which is a LOT to juggle. I did not know the dot from TD would apply with or without magshot setting it off first but I would still lead off with Serrated cast and IM so you don't have to use ur free cast for serrated. Freecasting PowerShot increases your dps without losing time between Dot reapplication. You want to use electronet early also as with Bag and tag, your alacrity goes up meaning your dots tick faster and therefore do more damage.

Concentrated Fire is a HUGE boost. 10% increased crit chance is huge and mine sits at 50% all the time with a short boost to 58% every now and then. So my dots typically crit and do to my alacrity bonus, they crit fast.

Also I use Thrill of the hunt no matter what. I played merc since beta and the single biggest gripe i have is staying still. I only have to stay still every so often to cast power shot or a heal and thats it. Serrated shot being my first attack and maintained with freecasts if necessary but...usually its not. They die or they run. FAR away run. If i'm defending or attacking a node I want my targets to flee. If i'm playing huttball its the same principle. I need them to leave me alone to complete the objective. Fleeing often only helps so much since the DoT is still on them anyway.

Chaff Flare for Arsenal is better than IO is 90% of cases as well. But i really don't mind, winning is winning and I can 1v1 any class with IA healers and some sorcs being outliers that can be troublesome.

Also yeah, do NOT spam Missleblast. It has 2 functions: A root to keep pesky melee away and when procc'ed as an execute. Its not part of your rotation, it has a specific function and is situational.
This is the way.

SlimPikinz's Avatar


SlimPikinz
01.13.2020 , 05:17 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Gyronamics View Post
What is this spam you talk of.

DoT on a target below 30% procs Missile Blast making it cost 10 instead of 20 and increasing damage.

But this has a 15s cooldown. Any kind of spam will have you firing Missile Blasts at 20 cost with no increased damage which is absolute trash in the context of IO and its tight resources and in terms of damage.
During 4.0 - 5.0, that rotation that I mentioned used to get people to around 20% life in about 2 GCDS. Spamming Missile Blast got me a lot of quick kills. In 6.0, the health values are really high so I can't really get the same results with it anymore.

Quote:
Actually while I'm here, it has never been necessary to detonate Thermal Detonator early to get the DoT so you can stop clipping Unload. It has always ignored the tooltip and put a DoT on the target whether it explodes early or not.
This I did not know and just tested it. Very useful to know. Thanks.

Quote: Originally Posted by TyrellJonez View Post
First is rotation. For IO timing is crucial. You want maximum uptime of all your dots while maintaining pressure AND managing heat which is a LOT to juggle. I did not know the dot from TD would apply with or without magshot setting it off first but I would still lead off with Serrated cast and IM so you don't have to use ur free cast for serrated. Freecasting PowerShot increases your dps without losing time between Dot reapplication. You want to use electronet early also as with Bag and tag, your alacrity goes up meaning your dots tick faster and therefore do more damage.
I like to play IO with minimal cast times so I never open with Serrated Shot. Rotation is less relevant in PvP since enemy DCDs can easily mess up the rotation anyway. Taking the Heat Reduction upon being CC'ed utility in the first tier is a must to play this spec (honestly, I take it in all 3 specs. The value is insane) and thus makes heat management much easier.

Tag and Bag is a really lackluster PvP utility compared to other options. I can honestly say that I've never taken it in PvP, nor will. The Improved Vent Heat in the first tier gives almost the same Alacrity and also vents more heat.

Quote:
Concentrated Fire is a HUGE boost. 10% increased crit chance is huge and mine sits at 50% all the time with a short boost to 58% every now and then. So my dots typically crit and do to my alacrity bonus, they crit fast.
This is apparently the best in slot set for all 3 specs so I will be going after this.

Quote:
Also I use Thrill of the hunt no matter what. I played merc since beta and the single biggest gripe i have is staying still. I only have to stay still every so often to cast power shot or a heal and thats it. Serrated shot being my first attack and maintained with freecasts if necessary but...usually its not. They die or they run. FAR away run. If i'm defending or attacking a node I want my targets to flee. If i'm playing huttball its the same principle. I need them to leave me alone to complete the objective. Fleeing often only helps so much since the DoT is still on them anyway.
Thrill of the Hunt is not really as necessary in IO as it is in Arsenal and Bodyguard. Full Auto is 14 second cooldown and if you position yourself properly, you can freecast it. I usually try to use it immediately after Missile Blast root or when they are stunned/slowed/netted. You really are sacrificing better utilities for something that doesn't see much value once you learn to not have it.

Quote:
Chaff Flare for Arsenal is better than IO is 90% of cases as well. But i really don't mind, winning is winning and I can 1v1 any class with IA healers and some sorcs being outliers that can be troublesome.
It honestly depends on the situation because the duration can get way more value than the 2 charges. Remember that defense chance can block yellow and white damage while also allowing you to resist stuns. The 2 absorb charges only block the damage but not the stun effect. If you are getting tunneled by 4 people in Ranked, IO Chaff Flare can resist a ton more damage and potentially fatal hard stuns. Four people will eat up 2 absorb charges in less than a second.

Quote:
Also yeah, do NOT spam Missleblast. It has 2 functions: A root to keep pesky melee away and when procc'ed as an execute. Its not part of your rotation, it has a specific function and is situational.
See first comment.

One last tip that I remembered while playing this weekend:
If you cast Incendiary Missile immediately after Fusion Missile cast, it will get to your target first and spread the DoT.

Floplag's Avatar


Floplag
01.15.2020 , 12:01 PM | #10
My biggest issue with I/O was it was poor at target swapping, so im curious, is that any better than in past?.
Floplag - Merc/Mando
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