Jump to content

[SPOILERS] A Theory On Rey And The Force


Ylliarus

Recommended Posts

Please be warned that there will be spoilers to The Last Jedi in this thread and if you haven't seen the movie yet but still plan to do, then please, do not read any further.

 

I have seen people express the criticism that Rey without explanation was strong in the Force and was able to lift rocks with seemingly little to no training. I personally heavily disagree that there is no explanation as to where her power comes from and I'd like to share my views on the matter to hopefully clarify this point of criticism at Star Wars The Last Jedi.

 

To begin, I personally believe people have a misconception of what the Force in the Star Wars universe is and how it works. People often see the Force to be two sides of a whole, the Light and the Dark. When viewed faction-wise like in Star Wars The Old Republic, the original trilogy, the prequels or the newest sequels, this would be correct from a certain point of view. We have the Republic and Jedi, followers of the Light, battling the Empire and the Sith, followers of the Dark, in SWTOR. In the original movies it's the Rebel Alliance vs the Galactic Empire. In the Prequels, Republic vs Separatists. In the newest sequels, Resistance vs First Order. I am not surprised that people therefore see the Force as having two sides as well because the initial view would indeed say it is so. However, this view is actually wrong. The Force is a cosmic divine entity that binds all life together, it connects and holds the entire galaxy in Star Wars in one piece. It is present within everyone and everything, some being more attuned to it than others, those people being able to draw upon the Force and use it like the Jedi did. Before I continue, it is important to note that this is the state of the Force as it is supposed to be, the Force being used selflessly, like the Jedi did. In this way, there is balance.

 

Then we enter the different state of the Force, the unnatural one, where those who were able to use the Force stopped using it selflessly and instead start using the Force selfishly. That, using the Force for your own gain through the use of selfish emotions, is what the Dark Side is. The Dark Side is referenced to be a different aspect of the Force, but it in fact is a corrupted version of it, corrupted by being selfish and using selfish emotions. It is why those who use the Dark Side so often seem to be addicted to the Dark Side, corrupted and slowly being destroyed by it. Using the corrupted version of the Force is like using a drug, which slowly is killing you and makes you more addicted to it the more you use it. Yet it is important to understand that this is not a natural part of the Force, it is rather unnatural and a perversion of it.

 

This brings us to the point of balance and the true meaning of it. As Luke said in the Last Jedi, the Force didn't belong to the Jedi Order. Instead it belongs to everyone and everything in the universe, binding and connecting it all. It is why the number of Jedi in the galaxy is of no consequence in the Star Wars universe, it merely is a representation of the Force within the galaxy. However, the number of people that do use the Dark Side of the Force is of the utmost importance. Why? Because those who use the Force selfishly and corrupt it are the ones creating the imbalance in the Force itself, because they pervert and corrupt its true state and form. Thus whenever someone arises that starts using the Force selfishly, thus in other terms, starts using the Dark Side of the Force, it is the natural response of the Force to correct this and restore balance. In this case, balance doesn't mean an equal amount of Light Side users and Dark Side users as people often mistakenly claim, but instead it means the total eradication of all those who use the Dark Side of the Force.

 

And how does the Force do this? Because it permeates everything and everyone, the Force manipulates the entire galaxy to correct this imbalance, depending on the scale of the imbalance. In the case of one Jedi who turned to the Dark Side, the response of the Force will be smaller. In the case of an entire faction arising led by or consisting of Dark Side users, the Force will manipulate the entire galaxy into a devastating war if need be, just to eradicate the imbalance that was created. This is the very reason why there is constant warfare in the Star Wars universe, it is why the Light and the Dark are constantly at war with one another. It is the natural instinct of the Light Side, meaning the state of the Force as it is supposed to be, to destroy the Dark Side, meaning those who use the Force selfishly and through it, corrupt it.

 

This is perfectly explained by Kreia in Knights of the Old Republic II:

"It is said that the Force has a will, it has a destiny for us all. I wield it, but it uses us all, and that is abhorrent to me. Because I hate the Force. I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance, when countless lives are lost." - Darth Traya

 

Let us return to the examples I used to depict why people mistakenly view the Force as having two sides and implement what I just wrote in a simplified manner for now, for the ease of explaining it. In Star Wars The Old Republic the Republic backed by the Jedi and Empire led by the Sith are at war with one another because the Force demands that the Republic and the Jedi, followers of the Force in the state it's supposed to be in (the Light Side), destroy the Empire and the Sith who have corrupted and perverted it. In the original movies the Rebellion, followers of the Light, rise up against the Galactic Empire, who are led by two followers of the Dark Side, because the Force demands that balance is restored. In the prequels, even though we know that Palpatine was the orchestrator of the Clone Wars, the Force nonetheless could be seen as making countermoves through Padme, Bail Organa, Mon Mothma, the Petition of 2000 and so on as manipulating the galaxy to rise up against the darkness that Palpatine was casting upon it and the Force. In the newest sequels its the Resistance that is being manipulated by the Force to rise up against the First Order which is led by Snoke up until the Last Jedi and subsequently Kylo Ren, both Dark Side users perverting the Force by using it selfishly.

 

The wars in Star Wars and the conflicts between the Light and Dark almost seem cyclical and they actually are confirmed to be cyclical by the Visual Dictionary for Star Wars The Last Jedi in Luke's chapter:

"Skywalker's studies revealed the cyclical nature of the struggle between light and dark, and the massive toll the galaxy pays with each cycle." - The Last Jedi Visual Dictionary

 

It is important to note however that the Force isn't manipulating for example the Republic and Jedi to battle against the entire Sith Empire, but rather, it manipulates everyone and everything in as well the Republic and Jedi as the Sith Empire to end those who use the Dark Side, which in this incarnation of the conflict happen to be the Sith, the Lords of the Sith, the Darths, the Lords of the Dark Council and the Sith Emperor himself. The Force isn't seeking to remove the Sith Empire itself, but those that use the Dark Side and thus in other words are corrupting the Force. This is important to understand, because it shows that the factions in Star Wars never mattered, or at least, in the eyes of the Force. It is why for example the entire spacebattle going on in Return of the Jedi is less significant than the battle that is going inside the Death Star II between Vader, Luke and the Emperor, while logically speaking the spacebattle should have been more significant. The Rebellion is a means to an end to the Force in that moment, where they were manipulated to bring about the confrontation between Luke and Vader, subsequently Emperor Palplatine torturing Luke which brings back Vader to the Light, which has as consequence that the Emperor is destroyed and balance returns. The entire galaxy was manipulated by the Force, the entire Galactic Civil War orchestrated by it, just to let that moment aboard the Death Star II where Vader was redeemed happen. It explains perfectly why Kreia despised the Force and why she sought to end it. Because the Force would manipulate everyone and everything in whatever way was necessary to bring about the destruction of those who used the Dark Side so that balance could be returned, balance meaning the complete lack of Dark Side users.

 

And this brings us to the point why Rey was as strong in the Force as she was in the Last Jedi. The Force itself is the answer and its tendency to manipulate everyone and everything to end those who use the Force selfishly and thus corrupt it. Rey was as strong in the Force as she was because the Force itself manipulated the midi-chlorians and her attunement to the Force to be as strong as she needed to be in order to be on par with Kylo Ren and Snoke, to be in turn capable of ending them and their corruption of the Force.

 

This is even confirmed in the movie by Snoke himself when he greets Rey when she is brought before him in his throneroom aboard the Supremacy:

"Darkness rises and Light to meet it. [...] I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger, his equal in the Light would rise." - Snoke in the Last Jedi

 

Kreia's words on the Force show a deeper truth about it and how it works in the Star Wars universe. To reiterate, Kreia stated:

"I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance, when countless lives are lost." - Kreia in KOTOR II

 

The part "that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance" is the most crucial truth about the Force that has been thus far expressed about it both in the new Canon and in Legends continuity, with the bit from the Last Jedi Visual dictionary about the cyclical nature of the conflict between the Light and Dark reaffirming this bit. The Force demands balance and it will not blink an eye whether it's a Republic, a Resistance, an Empire or First Order ruling the galaxy. As long as there are none that use the Dark Side of the Force, thus use the Force in a selfish manner, the Force itself would be fine with whatever flag is waving over the galaxy. The Force primarily cares about those that use the Force or are instrumental in the destruction of those who use the Dark Side. It is why the Force manipulated Rey to be as strong in the Force as she was, it is why the Force manipulated events in such a way that Finn was sent with Rose to Canto Bight in order to learn to fight for a greater good, it is why the Force manipulated the birth of Anakin Skywalker, it is why the Force manipulated an entire Galactic Civil War so that Vader and Luke would fight and the former be redeemed by the latter. The Force will manipulate the entire galaxy if needed so that a select few key individuals who are destined to bring about the balance of the Force will have the strength and possibility of achieving that.

 

Therefore, my conclusion as to why Rey was as strong in the Force as she was is the following: Kylo Ren and Snoke rose in power with the Dark Side, using it selfishly and thus corrupting and perverting the state of the Force it is supposed to be in, namely only Light Side and 0 Dark Side users. In order to return the balance to the galaxy and itself, the Force manipulated for Rey to be awakened to the Force, because it chose her to be destined to bring about the balance (and perhaps the reason why she was chosen and not another will be revealed in Episode IX). As Kylo Ren grew in strength, the response of the Force was to let Rey grow in strength as well, despite the fact she might not have had much training. It was the Force itself that was manipulting Rey to in effect teach herself and why she excelled at the Mind Trick in Episode 7 or why she lifted all those rocks so easily in Episode 8. The Force didn't care about Rey being untrained, it needed her to be strong in order to be able to escape from Starkiller Base, to find Luke, to learn about the Force and what her destiny is. It needed her to be able to save the remaining Resistance members from the mines at Crait so that they in turn might help Rey bring about the balance in the Force and the galaxy the Force itself demands there to be. If there was no First Order, no Snoke, no Kylo Ren, then Rey might not even have gained any stronger attunement or connection to the Force and remained on Jakku, because in such a case there would have been no imbalance and no need for Light Siders to arise to fight it.

 

And that is also the meaning of the boy with the broomstick at the end of the Last Jedi. The Force has not only manipulated the galaxy in such a way that Rey became stronger attuned to the Force, but it has awakened that same connection within dozens if not hundreds of others. As I said before, the amount of Jedi in the galaxy is of no importance when there is no imbalance, but when the Dark Side arises through those who use the Force in a selfish manner and thus corrupt it, then the Jedi need to arise, or another incarnation of Light Side followers and warriors, in order to battle the rising darkness. In SWTOR it's the Jedi Order and Republic, in the original movies it's the Rebellion and Luke, in the prequels it's the Senators such as Padme and Bail Organa and Jedi such as Obi-Wan and Yoda... and in the newest sequels it's the Resistance and Rey, with a new generation of Light Side users at her side.

 

Remember Kreia's words to the Exile, for those who say that it's impossible for Rey to be as strong as she was in the Force in the Last Jedi:

"Nothing is impossible with the Force." - Kreia in KOTOR II
Edited by Ylliarus
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 71
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

The biggest "problem" people have with Rey is that she is a female protagonist... who had experience in melee combat prior to actually holding a lightsaber... I never had problems with her being "too strong" too soon because I played zillions of star wars RPG's and when I watch these movies based on what I learned about the force from KOTOR 2 especially.

 

You quoted Kreia and indeed, nothing is impossible with the force. So the way the force manifests in Rey wouldn't be such a big deal in the Old Republic era and let's face it, the force manifested itself in the same way in Anakin Skywalker. He was the same nobody with his parent's being nobody on a desert planet int the middle of nowhere.

 

 

 

There were some voices who hated Erso also from Rogue One for the same reason. She was a female protagonist leading men into war. ;)

Edited by DavidAtkinson
Link to comment
Share on other sites

An interesting theory, one that I like a lot. I wish there was a more canon version of what Kreia said, although it seems we can infer it with other examples in the films (where did Luke learn Force Choke to get past Jabba’s guards? He never saw Vader do it, nor would Obi-wan or Yoda have taught him that).

 

As for the Force manipulating things, I know this is how I have accepted it, but could a similar concept be applied to things like Leia surviving, in that it still needed her to assist the bringing about of balance in some way like finally driving her lesson about leadership home to Poe?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As for the Force manipulating things, I know this is how I have accepted it, but could a similar concept be applied to things like Leia surviving, in that it still needed her to assist the bringing about of balance in some way like finally driving her lesson about leadership home to Poe?

 

Absolutely! Talking from a lore standpoint, I could completely imagine Leia having still a large role to play in the eyes of the Force in bringing back the balance to the galaxy. Her survival therefore and her seemingly instinctual use of the Force could very much be the Force manipulating her subconcious to bring herself to safety in order to survive. Leia has been instrumental in the past so I wouldn't be surprised if she was indeed one of the Force's chosen conduits to bring about the balance in the galaxy. For all we know, she only needed to survive to teach Poe what it means to be a leader because the Force foresees him as the next leader of the Resistance or that Poe in some way will be instrumental in helping Rey restore balance. Rose's intervention to safe Finn from death could be viewed through exactly the same scope: it was not his time to die then and there, thus the Force manipulated Rose to save Finn.

 

The key in all of this is that the Force sees these individuals, and in other eras other individuals such as the Hero of Tython or the Bar'senthor, as tools to use to achieve balance. So no matter how many lives are lost or what happens, the Force will do anything to remove those who use the Force in a selfish manner and thus corrupting it.

 

The biggest "problem" people have with Rey is that she is a female protagonist... who had experience in melee combat prior to actually holding a lightsaber... I never had problems with her being "too strong" too soon because I played zillions of star wars RPG's and when I watch these movies based on what I learned about the force from KOTOR 2 especially.

 

You quoted Kreia and indeed, nothing is impossible with the force. So the way the force manifests in Rey wouldn't be such a big deal in the Old Republic era and let's face it, the force manifested itself in the same way in Anakin Skywalker. He was the same nobody with his parent's being nobody on a desert planet int the middle of nowhere.

 

There were some voices who hated Erso also from Rogue One for the same reason. She was a female protagonist leading men into war. ;)

 

Sadly you are very much correct, Rey's gender is, to those people, the problem and not her aptitude in the Force. Yet I don't want to derail this discussion into that subject, as I want the focus to remain on the lore aspect of Rey's strength in the Force :) because as it stands I already have (gleefully) stepped on the toes of those that hate there is a female protagonist in the new sequels :p

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow. You changed my point of view on all what happened (especially around Anakin.) I always thought it was his destiny to bring balance to the force, meaning same amount of force users on both sides... But as you mentioned he got redeemed after he killed Palpatine makes perfect sense.. cause he had to bring balance back to the world killing Sidious so the world/force is free from dark siders abusing the force...

 

Thanks :)

Edited by Jesseriah
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow. You changed my point of view on all what happened (especially around Anakin.) I always thought it was his destiny to bring balance to the force, meaning same amount of force users on both sides... But as you mentioned he got redeemed after he killed Palpatine makes perfect sense.. cause he had to bring balance back to the world killing Sidious so the world/force is free from dark siders abusing the force...

 

Thanks :)

 

Lots of people have thought that balance meant having the same number on each side. I used to think that, too.

 

But, some time ago, I remember seeing or reading an interview with GL and that question was asked. He stated that the Force was in balance when there was only the light. The absence of the dark side is what determines balance.

 

Think of it as nature and everything being in harmony. The existence of anything that damages the harmony ruins the cycle... no matter what may be there to combat it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The biggest "problem" people have with Rey is that she is a female protagonist... who had experience in melee combat prior to actually holding a lightsaber... I never had problems with her being "too strong" too soon because I played zillions of star wars RPG's and when I watch these movies based on what I learned about the force from KOTOR 2 especially.

 

You quoted Kreia and indeed, nothing is impossible with the force. So the way the force manifests in Rey wouldn't be such a big deal in the Old Republic era and let's face it, the force manifested itself in the same way in Anakin Skywalker. He was the same nobody with his parent's being nobody on a desert planet int the middle of nowhere.

 

 

 

There were some voices who hated Erso also from Rogue One for the same reason. She was a female protagonist leading men into war. ;)

 

It has nothing to do with her being a woman. I have no idea why people say that other than to undermine the argument on the other side of the table in attempt to shame and silence them.

 

Was there an uprising over Satele Shan? No. Know why? Because her story was explained and made more sense then Rey's. However, Satele and Kotor in general are not canon. Rey is.

 

The problem with Rey is the Mary Sue extravaganza she displays. Jedi and Sith (who cares what gender they are?) would train for years. As stated before many time, Anakin himself, fathered by the force, still trained under Obi, Quigon and Yoda. Even then, we see how Duuko pwns him the first time they fight even after years of training. Had Yoda not jumped in, Anakin and Obi would be dead.

 

Yet this person, who has no lightsaber fighting skills ( a staff is not the same- especially when fighting a skilled and trained force user), who was never taught how to use the force to be telepathic and make people do things they would not normally do... just knows how to do these things with no training or instruction in the force - because that is how the story of a Mary Sue works.

 

https://fanlore.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

"Mary Sue type characters do exist in both fan fiction and canon. The main difficulty with true Mary Sue stories is that they often cause canon characters, established story lines, and the very inner consistency of the canon's reality, to behave wildly out of bounds. "

 

It is a joke and a disgrace to the plots of the former films.

 

So please, stop saying it is people hating on woman as an excuse to dismiss arguments as to why Rey is catching so much slack over it. Her gender has 0 to do with it.

 

Also this.

There were some voices who hated Erso also from Rogue One for the same reason. She was a female protagonist leading men into war. ;)

 

 

I personally liked the movie. TLJ is the first one I can say without question that I absolutely hate. I have saw them all, including the OT at the theater.

Edited by NuSeC
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem with Rey is the Mary Sue extravaganza she displays. Jedi and Sith (who cares what gender they are?) would train for years. As stated before many time, Anakin himself, fathered by the force, still trained under Obi, Quigon and Yoda. Even then, we see how Duuko pwns him the first time they fight even after years of training. Had Yoda not jumped in, Anakin and Obi would be dead.

 

Yet this person, who has no lightsaber fighting skills ( a staff is not the same- especially when fighting a skilled and trained force user), who was never taught how to use the force to be telepathic and make people do things they would not normally do... just knows how to do these things with no training or instruction in the force - because that is how the story of a Mary Sue works.

 

I would urge you to read my theory carefully, which explains why Rey was able to gain such strengths in the Force. I also urge anyone else not to discuss the subject of Rey's gender in this thread because it derails the subject. The subject is the way the Force manifests itself in the Star Wars Universe and I would very much appreciate if we remained on topic :)

 

Rey's strength without being trained actually make perfect sense within the Star Wars universe if you view the Force the way I do, which results in me not seeing Rey as a Mary Sue, but rather as a tool used by the Force to obtain balance.

Edited by Ylliarus
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would urge you to read my theory carefully, which explains why Rey was able to gain such strengths in the Force. I also urge anyone else not to discuss the subject of Rey's gender in this thread because it derails the subject. The subject is the way the Force manifests itself in the Star Wars Universe and I would very much appreciate if we remained on topic :)

 

Rey's strength without being trained actually make perfect sense within the Star Wars universe if you view the Force the way I do, which results in me not seeing Rey as a Mary Sue, but rather as a tool used by the Force to obtain balance.

 

Fair enough as long as other stay off of that subject as well.

 

I am glad it makes sense to you but for hundreds of thousands of other SW fans, it does not... not even close.

Edited by NuSeC
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fair enough as long as other stay off of that subject as well.

 

I am glad it makes sense to you but for hundreds of thousands of other SW fans, it does not... not even close.

 

But have you read the theory? Because the theory comes from the perspectives that in-universe characters had of the Force, Kreia being a prime example. It's not a new view that was created by Disney but actually existed long before Disney acquired Star Wars. I am not saying that my theory has more weight because it is based on views from Legends, but if those hundreds of Star Wars fans don't agree with Rey and how she gained strength because supposedly it would contradict previously established lore, then I wonder if they have seen the lore correctly previously or had their own view of it that was incorrect.

Edited by Ylliarus
Link to comment
Share on other sites

she is not a Mary Sue that's dumb. yes most of the hate is because she is a woman. How can i prove this you ask? Easy because they are accepting of Luke Skywalker who had just as much training as Rey did. yet totally accept him.

 

As for Satele Shan why wasn't there an uprising? Because she isn't main stream. She is also not a main character. People are angry because a woman is the lead in Star Wars. They were also angry at Jinn Orso in Rogue one.

 

Luke actually had less training then Rey.

 

Luke had 0 melee combat experience, he gets his butt kicked by Sandpeople.

 

Rey grew up on a hostile planet and learned how to defend her self with a staff. Now you will claim "A staff isn't a lightsaber" Actually a staff is closer to a lightsaber then a sword as it doesn't matter which side you hit it with and you don't have to worry about blunting your blade.

 

The only Jedi training Luke got from Obi Wan was a 2 min session on the MF teaching him to reach out and feel the force. How do I know? Watch the scene

 

That's the only training he gets. He feels the force once and thats it. Later on Hoth he is able to use force pull ON HIS FIRST ATTEMPT and get the lightsaber with out even knowing that ablity exists.

 

Rey before she uses any powers she is "Mind melded" with Kylo seeing everything in his head.

 

Not to mention who knows what stories she heard about Luke and the Force growing up.

 

Flying

 

Luke did fly a T-16 and talked about he wasn't such a bad pilot. However in his first time flying a military X-wing he out fly's Darth Vader.

 

Rey is also a pilot she mentions this several times she just never flew off world. She also talks about how she worked on the Falcon. When she does fly she is not an expert she crashes it 3 times trying to escape the tie fighters.

 

Not to metion they hit her A LOT. and that is with flying low to the ground to confuse their sensors. Meanwhile Luke outflys vader and a whole squadron of Tie fighters in his first millitary assualt while dodging canon fire from the surface.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sarFZJl3h0

 

 

So if Rey is a Mary Sue then Luke is at least twice the Mary Sue she is.

 

 

Do we even need to talk about how 8 year old Anakin used the force to fly pod racers as well as fly a Naboo Starfighter, take out an entire fleet of Droid Fighters?

 

 

So the reason why people who claim that "Rey is a Mary Sue" are just hating on her because she is a woman is because they are being incredibly hypocritical.

 

Edit i forgot to add on Luke's powers

 

His training with Yoda. It lasted 1 day. He learned how to balance rocks. That's it.

 

In ROTJ he uses Force Choke on Jaba's guards where do you think he learned that? Do you think Yoda taught him that?

Edited by jarjarloves
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That was an amazing read, and a theory I quite like. Only recently with the release of The Last Jedi have I been thinking about what "the balance of the force" actually means (as opposed to the "good guys always win" trope), and considering Snoke's quote, "I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger, his equal in the Light would rise" I assumed that meant the force actually wanted to balance both light and dark. In defence of the "light must equal dark" theory though, it makes the Rule of Two look even more impressive, considering that if Darth Bane managed to figure out that the force would strive to have a balance of light and dark in the galaxy, having only 2 members of your belief system would make you ridiculously overpowered against your polar opposite organisation.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

But have you read the theory? Because the theory comes from the perspectives that in-universe characters had of the Force, Kreia being a prime example. It's not a new view that was created by Disney but actually existed long before Disney acquired Star Wars. I am not saying that my theory has more weight because it is based on views from Legends, but if those hundreds of Star Wars fans don't agree with Rey and how she gained strength because supposedly it would contradict previously established lore, then I wonder if they have seen the lore correctly previously or had their own view of it that was incorrect.

 

Is Kreia canon?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

she is not a Mary Sue that's dumb. yes most of the hate is because she is a woman. How can i prove this you ask? Easy because they are accepting of Luke Skywalker who had just as much training as Rey did. yet totally accept him.

 

As for Satele Shan why wasn't there an uprising? Because she isn't main stream. She is also not a main character. People are angry because a woman is the lead in Star Wars. They were also angry at Jinn Orso in Rogue one.

 

Luke actually had less training then Rey.

 

Luke had 0 melee combat experience, he gets his butt kicked by Sandpeople.

 

Rey grew up on a hostile planet and learned how to defend her self with a staff. Now you will claim "A staff isn't a lightsaber" Actually a staff is closer to a lightsaber then a sword as it doesn't matter which side you hit it with and you don't have to worry about blunting your blade.

 

The only Jedi training Luke got from Obi Wan was a 2 min session on the MF teaching him to reach out and feel the force. How do I know? Watch the scene

 

That's the only training he gets. He feels the force once and thats it. Later on Hoth he is able to use force pull ON HIS FIRST ATTEMPT and get the lightsaber with out even knowing that ablity exists.

 

Rey before she uses any powers she is "Mind melded" with Kylo seeing everything in his head.

 

Not to mention who knows what stories she heard about Luke and the Force growing up.

 

Flying

 

Luke did fly a T-16 and talked about he wasn't such a bad pilot. However in his first time flying a military X-wing he out fly's Darth Vader.

 

Rey is also a pilot she mentions this several times she just never flew off world. She also talks about how she worked on the Falcon. When she does fly she is not an expert she crashes it 3 times trying to escape the tie fighters.

 

Not to metion they hit her A LOT. and that is with flying low to the ground to confuse their sensors. Meanwhile Luke outflys vader and a whole squadron of Tie fighters in his first millitary assualt while dodging canon fire from the surface.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sarFZJl3h0

 

 

So if Rey is a Mary Sue then Luke is at least twice the Mary Sue she is.

 

 

Do we even need to talk about how 8 year old Anakin used the force to fly pod racers as well as fly a Naboo Starfighter, take out an entire fleet of Droid Fighters?

 

 

So the reason why people who claim that "Rey is a Mary Sue" are just hating on her because she is a woman is because they are being incredibly hypocritical.

 

Edit i forgot to add on Luke's powers

 

His training with Yoda. It lasted 1 day. He learned how to balance rocks. That's it.

 

In ROTJ he uses Force Choke on Jaba's guards where do you think he learned that? Do you think Yoda taught him that?

 

Those are some fantastic points. I agree with what you're saying. I think that people forgot or are too young to even know what the OT experience was like without any EU distractions.

 

As for training, I always have imagined that a bit happened off screen. Not a lot with Obi-Wan, but maybe with Yoda. How long was Luke on Dagobah? Either way, not long enough to change your point about what he learned from Yoda.

 

When you look at it, Rey hasn't done too much with the Force. Not like some have you believe, anyway. And, as has been discussed, the Force is something that can be used naturally, once you know and believe that you can. The training is just for control and focus.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Those are some fantastic points. I agree with what you're saying. I think that people forgot or are too young to even know what the OT experience was like without any EU distractions.

 

As for training, I always have imagined that a bit happened off screen. Not a lot with Obi-Wan, but maybe with Yoda. How long was Luke on Dagobah? Either way, not long enough to change your point about what he learned from Yoda.

 

When you look at it, Rey hasn't done too much with the Force. Not like some have you believe, anyway. And, as has been discussed, the Force is something that can be used naturally, once you know and believe that you can. The training is just for control and focus.

 

yeah i have the same feelings about training in the force. In fact if we look at the OT and the training Luke did recieve it was all about control.

 

As for Degobah well it all depends how long you think Leia and Han were traveling to Cloud City. Were they stuck flying there for a week? with the same clothes ? How long would it have taken for Boba Fett to call the Emprie and have them set up the trap? We only see a day in the training of Luke and the most we see him do is move some rocks before he heads off to Cloud City.

 

So it coudln't have been that long.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is Kreia canon?

 

I wish she was, but the new canon does reaffirm several of her beliefs and views on the Force. A prime example would be the description of the battle between light and dark being of a cyclical nature that can be found in the visual dictionary of the Last Jedi in Luke's chapter. I have linked an image of that bit in the visual dictionary in my OP.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wish she was, but the new canon does reaffirm several of her beliefs and views on the Force. A prime example would be the description of the battle between light and dark being of a cyclical nature that can be found in the visual dictionary of the Last Jedi in Luke's chapter. I have linked an image of that bit in the visual dictionary in my OP.

 

If it is not canon... you cant really justify any talking points on the force by it.

 

My opinion is that the movie is now contradictory of what it was... for the last 40 years.

 

Canon stuff is the stuff I try to go by. Now it seems the canon is against the canon. There is a lot of entertainment value in the EU... I am not saying that at all. But I think this topic would be better served, if going for facts, if we all stick to canon.

 

Also, OP, I will apologize in advance, but again, someone is throwing out stuff about "dont like the movie because they hate women" nonsense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

she is not a Mary Sue that's dumb. yes most of the hate is because she is a woman. How can i prove this you ask? Easy because they are accepting of Luke Skywalker who had just as much training as Rey did. yet totally accept him.

 

As for Satele Shan why wasn't there an uprising? Because she isn't main stream. She is also not a main character. People are angry because a woman is the lead in Star Wars. They were also angry at Jinn Orso in Rogue one.

 

Again, reflecting away from the issues I have already brought up and have explained why it is lame to propagate people not likening the movie because of the lead being a woman. I have also agreed not to comment about it unless someone else brings it up again and here we go… Sorry OP, it seems some of the people in agreement with you can not comprehend that other people just think the story is garbage and would much rather insist that it is because gasp… the woman. Even though it has already been explained, in great detail, how that is not at all the case. Also, I have also said I liked RO. So there goes that theory. I have it on BR and My daughter dressed up as Jinn for Holloween. But yeah, GO PATRIARCHY!

 

The most popular rants on youtube about this movie have NOTHING to do with Rey being a woman, it is not even mentioned. Misogyny is being thrown out to silence people who just think the story is crap… as if that is an impossibility.

 

So you can keep preaching about how that is the reason in your echo chamber. I ( and many many others) have already explained it and our issues with it and none of the issues have to do with her being a woman. But I must, for some reason, keep arguing against this tired and baseless accusation. Or you guys could just stop regurgitating it. Not to mention, my post alone is proof that it is not the argument. Yet here we are… again.

 

Luke actually had less training then Rey.

This is laughable. I would much more prefer to play this game than talk with people incapable of accepting that other people just did not like the story. Or people that thought the lore was misused or that they treated Luke poorly or that there are ridicules plot holes or superman Leiah.

 

Here is the short and dirty...

1)In “The Force Awakens”, Rey has already used a saber - beating someone trained from childhood by an actual master Jedi. She was able to use telepathy to read someone thoughts and control them. Summon a lightsaber to herself, over powering someone in the actual Skywalker bloodline for it. - this is just in TFA, not even getting into this one. As it does not matter, now we know she was a nobody who is a Mary Sue. At Least Anakin's dad was the force. I mean... yeah, that is the Skywalker bloodline.

Saber proficient, telepathy, telekinesis and besting another actually trained force user… this is before even training with another force user.

2)Luke didn’t grow up on a harsh planet? LMAO… did you forget where he grew up and who ran the planet?

3) A lightsaber is used far more closely related to a sword than a staff… to suggest otherwise is just… whatever. This is just not even debatable. Fighting styles, stances etc. just wow

4) Luke did not out fly Vader. Vader killed all his wingmen and was knocked out of the “canyon” by another tie fighter. Luke was about to be killed by Vader. When was the last time you saw TESB? How you get he out flew Vader is beyond me. Also, Obi was using his force ghost to help guide Luke. But whatever.

5) You jump across 3 movies in order to talk about how Mary Sue Luke is.

Luke had 0 melee combat experience, he gets his butt kicked by Sandpeople.

6) Yet at this same time, you want to call him a Mary Sue. LOL. I don’t think that word means what you think it means.

 

His training with Yoda. It lasted 1 day. He learned how to balance rocks. That's it.

 

LOL um no but I am willing to look at your source for this.

Here is one I like to use:

 

His training was going on during the time it took the Falcon to get to Bespin from Hoth, travelling without a hyperdrive. That should have taken more than a week, especially considering that Han's line "it's pretty far, but I think we can make it"

 

But if you show canon that says he trained in a day...

 

 

 

Rey before she uses any powers she is "Mind melded" with Kylo seeing everything in his head.

 

Really? so why did she need to have ANYTHING explained about what happened between Luke and Ben? Why did she not know or see who her parents are? Why didn't she just see all of the plans for what the FO was doing? The gaping plot hole you are trying to open immediately falls apart when trying to make any sense of it without Olympic style mental gymnastics.

 

So so many things you are missing in the scope of your arguement. The timelines on the movies I would say is the worst. Like mentioning Luke using choke in RoTJ. This was about a year after he had fought Vader. He also constructed a lightsaber during this time which undoubtedly also meant he practiced force abilities. He got to see and feel how powerful his dad had become and Yoda and Obi were free and able to devote time to his training.

It goes... TPM (10y) AOTC (3y) ROTS (19y) ANH (3y) ESB (1y) ROTJ (30y) TFA (no time gap) TLJ - In case you missed it, there was no time gap (the only one in the series without time allotted between films) between TLJ and TFA compared to 3 years between ANH and TESB. So claiming he had less training is again, laughable. At the end of TLJ... she had a couple days compared to Luke's YEARS.

 

Anyways. I am off to play the game bro. I am not going to debate ridicules accusations about sexism when people just think the story is garbage and some of you just can not accept that answer. It must be the patriarchy!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

FACEPALM..... you are missing the point

"The most popular rants on youtube about this movie have NOTHING to do with Rey being a woman, it is not even mentioned."

 

Sigh... the point is if you call Rey a Mary Sue for not having training or flying the falcon or using force powers and NOT call out Luke for the SAME THINGS. Then it is since she is a woman.

 

 

Who taught Luke how to use Force Pull in between ANH and TES?

 

As for Degohbah... yeah that's not canon despite what a youtube video says. His source is a children's book that is non canon.

 

So about the trip to cloud city. Let me ask you this. Why didn't the empire ambush them in deep space while Boba Fett was following them?

 

 

You missed the point about Luke's non melee combat skill. We know that Obi wan taught him literarlly 2 minutes of light saber combat. We know Yoda didn't teach him any (that was the entire point of Yoda training him) So how did he get good enough to take on Darth Vader?

 

Yes he did out fly Vader. to deny it is just stupid. He also survived an assault that only 3 other well trained pilots survived. That's pretty amazing for someone who never flew a combat mission.

 

But Rey gets shade because she crashed the falcon 4 times and took a ton of damage.

 

Like mentioning Luke using choke in RoTJ. This was about a year after he had fought Vader.

 

and you are missing the point again its not about time. He could have 50 years it doesn't matter WHO TAUGHT HIM HOW TO DO IT! That is the point.

 

compared to 3 years between ANH and TESB . So claiming he had less training is again laughable

again. NO ONE WAS AROUND TO TRAIN HIM!

 

Obi wan was dead and hadn't appeared as a force ghost. Luke didn't know about Yoda so who trained him.

 

 

" - beating someone trained from childhood by an actual master Jedi"

 

She beat an aprrentance her own age who was just shot by a Bowcaster a weapon we have never seen anyone survive. He is bleeding out, already got sliced in the arm by Fin and his goal wasn't to kill her but take her alive.

 

So yeah she better have won.

 

Let me ask you this then how did Luke beat Vader? Vader had been a true sith master who has DECADES of actual combat experience while Luke again never had any formal training and only fought one other person in lightsaber combat. So how did Luke win then?

 

 

"She was able to use telepathy to read someone thoughts and control them"

 

Ummm what? No she didn't? Are you refering to when she mind melded with Kylo? Because she didn't use the power he did. She just saw the fear in him.

 

As for mind control? are you talking about the storm trooper she used the Jedi Mind trick on? Because she didn't read his thoughts.

 

Are you drunk or just making stuff up

 

Skywalker bloodline for it

 

This is the weakest of arguments. There is nothing anywhere in star wars to indicate your bloodline determines how strong you are in the force.

 

If it did all of the Jedi would have died out since they don't reproduce. Also Ben is only 1/4 Skywalker bloodline. So even if the whole "force bloodline" meant anything he would have been diluted.

 

Also remember in SWTOR they make a point of bloodlines not being anything Theron Shan Son of Satele Shan, of the Revan blood line? Absolute 0 connection to the force.

 

So yeah that's an incredibility foolish thing to claim.

 

)Luke didn’t grow up on a harsh planet?
as a farmer, who was cared for by his Aunt and Uncle and watched over and protected by Obi Wan. He even had friends who he went to hang out at Taschi Station. Not a harsh life.

 

Rey was esentially a slave and didn't have anyone to protect her. She had to scavage parts just for food to survive.

 

 

I am not going to debate ridicules accusations about sexism when people just think the story is garbage and some of you just can not accept that answer.
again you are missing the point. You don't have to like the new Star Wars. The point is when you say you hate it and your reasons are for the same things that appear in all of Star Wars and you accept those points then it must be something.

 

Like people complaining about the Bombers in TLJ with out remembering there were Tie Bombers dropping bombs on an Asteroid in TESB.

 

It's like saying I love whisky because i love the taste of alcohol but I hate beer because it has too much alcohol.

 

 

 

Edit: Also as the OP said you don't need training to use the force, this is also show in Season 2 of the Clone Wars (still canon btw) where Wee Dunn and Roo-Roo Page babies who can't even speak but can use force powers. Who trained them?

Edited by jarjarloves
Link to comment
Share on other sites

FACEPALM..... you are missing the point

 

 

Sigh... the point is if you call Rey a Mary Sue for not having training or flying the falcon or using force powers and NOT call out Luke for the SAME THINGS. Then it is since she is a woman.

 

Wrong you are missing the point that there was 3 years in between Luke in ANH and TESB. As I previously stated and that IS canon. Also, pointed out that he had that much time to practice on his own. After working with Ben. And no, it was also answered by canon that it was more than a day of training with Yoda as well, as you tried to proclaim.

 

As a matter of fact, I went and rewatched TESB even Yoda says "no more will I teach you today" nearly at the start of his training. Proving it was more than a day so already wrong, the only question is how long but your proven wrong "day" theory is already shot.

 

*addition for edit*

Also when Luke is pleading with Yoda to train him Yoda says he was "too old," to which Luke replied, "But I have learned so much already." Could not really say that in context if he had not learned more than what Ben had taught him. Again, 3 years. Unless he was lying to Yoda with Ben's force ghost being there.

 

Who taught Luke how to use Force Pull in between ANH and TES?

Have you even watched these movies??

For starters... lets not forget this is the second movie he uses it after 3 years of being able to also train on his own... Rey uses it in TFA without training with anyone But whatever, I see you dismissed that, or over looked it. Again, useing her power over Ben... but LOLz amirite?

 

1) I did not bring anything up about piloting. Dont inject that into my argument. They can both be skilled/good/whatever. I don't care and that never bothered me.

2) Vader almost killed Luke, Had the other tiefighter not hit him because of Solo, he would have.

3) Not only did Luke spend actual time with masters that wanted to teach instead of running into caves, he had years to reflect and build on what he was taught between ANH and TESB. Also, he got dismembered when he fought Vader.

Ummm what? No she didn't? Are you refering to when she mind melded with Kylo? Because she didn't use the power he did. She just saw the fear in him.

 

As for mind control? are you talking about the storm trooper she used the Jedi Mind trick on? Because she didn't read his thoughts.

She did both of these in TFA... both of them. Making the trooper unlock her and also reading Kylos mind. This is one of the reasons people thought she must be a Skywalker in fan theory. Or the fact the Skywalker lightsaber went to her over Kylo... I mean. yeah.

 

That is it. I am done. I am not going to defend that this movie sucks because I believe the plot is lame. But you guys have to learn that just because something is diverse, does not then by default mean it is a good story, regardless of who the protagonist is. Shaming someone for not liking the story because you automatically believe they must be biased against women for doing so is stupid. Never thinking that maybe, they actually have reasons for not liking it that do not have to do with gender. Alien had a female protagonist and is one of the most recognized Sci-Fi brands out there. But that does not fit the paradigm you want to paint now does it? But yeah, lets just hate on some starwars because there is a girl with a lightsaber. I know plenty of movies that suck that have a male protagonist. Am I then sexist against men? I mean the logic to that thought process is just dumb. Instead of believing someone does not like the plot/story you guys automatically think they must be sexist for doing so? I am almost embarrassed to even participate in this nonsense.

Edited by NuSeC
Added a statement
Link to comment
Share on other sites

FACEPALM... you dont' even bother reading.

 

It doesn't matter if it was 20 years inbetween ANH and TESB there was NO ONE TO TRAIN LUKE!

 

The day statement about Luke on Degobah was hyperbolie. The point is we see the most important parts of his training, the cave, feeling the force and so on. He is never trained in Lightsaber combat or attacking force powers ie force choke and so fourth.

 

I brought up piloting because its one of the things people like to claim is proof she is a Mary Sue. If you concede that then fine we can move on.

 

Yes Rey uses Force pull and beats a dying angry sith who can't even stand up. Whats your point?

 

I see you avoided the question on how Luke beat Vader in ROTJ so.... good job on that.

 

Or the fact the Skywalker lightsaber went to her over Kylo... I mean. yeah.

did you even read the OP post?

 

I am not going to defend that this movie sucks because I believe the plot is lame.

 

TFA is the SAME PLOT AS A NEW HOPE!!!! That's the whole freaking point its a soft reboot. This is why people are shaming you.

 

Alien had a female protagonist and is one of the most recognized Sci-Fi brands out there.
taken straight out of the MRA talking points.

 

You're a fan of Saragon of Akkad aren't you?

 

and again BLOODLINES DO NOT MATER IN STAR WARS! That has 0 determination with how strong you are with the force.

 

i'll say this one more time.

 

The things you criticize about TFA are the EXACT SAME THINGS IN THE OT! EVEN THE PLOT IS THE SAME. So you look like a hypocrite for saying TFA is bad for those reasons.

Edited by jarjarloves
Link to comment
Share on other sites

FACEPALM... you dont' even bother reading.

 

It doesn't matter if it was 20 years inbetween ANH and TESB there was NO ONE TO TRAIN LUKE!

Are you saying if you train a child to ride a bike, they cant learn to do stunts on their own? the logic does not float. He was shown the "basics" and was obviously learning over the 3 years he had away from Kenobi.

 

Kenobi showed Luke the force... showed him how to reach out. Showed him he could even use it to predict things and how to feel objects using it. Then had three years to play with it. He also told Yoda he had learned so much... this was AFTER 3 years past from Kenobi's death. A re you insinuating he did not learn anything on his own during those 3 years?

 

This entire TFA to TLJ takes a couple weeks... if that. Then you are deflecting the fact that it was Rey who hurt Kylo and over powered him for his own grandfather's lightsaber. And used it against him. Not to mention used mind tricks on a trooper... I mean. lol!! It is like she just found out she has the force last week.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This entire TFA to TLJ takes a couple weeks... if that. Then you are deflecting the fact that it was Rey who hurt Kylo and over powered him for his own grandfather's lightsaber. And used it against him. Not to mention used mind tricks on a trooper... I mean. lol!! It is like she just found out she has the force last week.

 

I don't mean to be rude, but from these lines I can clearly see that you didn't read the theory but just saw that the tone is not negative about the Last Jedi and started repeating what you already have in numerous other threads. I don't mean this as a personal attack of course, but I had hoped you would take the time to go over what I have written in the OP.

 

As I explained elaborately in the OP, Rey is able to use mind tricks and such due to the fact the Force is manipulating her to be as strong as she is in order to be able to stand against Kylo. She is a tool being used by the Force itself to eliminate all Dark Side users from the galaxy in order to return the balance to the Force. The fact that the Force is in balance when there are no Dark Siders in the galaxy has been both confirmed by canon as well as legends material. The conflict between Light and Dark is of a cyclical nature as stated by the Last Jedi visual dictionary. That means that the Dark Side rises and the Light rises in tandem to meet it, literally as Snoke said in the movie. It is something no one but the Force itself has control over, this including Rey's aptitude and strength in the Force. The only reason she is as strong and seemingly trained as she is, is because the Force itself wills her to be such.

 

"I fear nothing, [...] All is as the Force wills it." - Chirrut Îmwe in Rogue One

 

Had Kylo Ren remained Ben Solo and not fallen to the Dark Side, had Snoke never risen to power or existed after the fall of Palpatine and the Empire, then Rey would never have been as strong as she was in TFA and TLJ because there would be no reason for the Force to intervene as there would be no Dark Siders disturbing the balance in the galaxy and the Force. Very likely Rey would have had some strength in the Force and perhaps she would have been discovered by Luke during his travels and trained under him, just like normal Jedi did in the past. The situation would have been normal then. However, this is not the case, Snoke may not be around anymore but Kylo and the Knights of Ren are very much around and followers of the Dark Side. As long as they exist and corrupt the Force by using it selfishly, then the Force will manipulate the entire galaxy in order to correct this imbalance. It will awaken connections to the Force in people who previously had no attunement to it, it will give strength and aptitude in others like with Rey, it will manipulate an entire faction to arise in war to battle the Dark Side users. That is why Rey is so strong and skilled in using the Force, the Force is manipulating her insticts and if you think about it, when a Jedi dies their essence becomes one with the Force. That means the Force is saturated with the experiences of thousands upon thousands of Jedi, therefore the Force being able to plant those experiences within Rey's mind and subconcious, enabling her to use the Force on an instinctual level rather than being trained to use it.

"All energy from the Living Force, from all things that have ever lived, feeds into the cosmic Force, binding everything and communicating to us through the midi-chlorians. Because of this, I can speak to you now." - The spirit of Qui-Gon Jinn, communing with Yoda

Edited by Ylliarus
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't mean to be rude, but from these lines I can clearly see that you didn't read the theory but just saw that the tone is not negative about the Last Jedi and started repeating what you already have in numerous other threads.

Um, you know, the theory is also that people dont just not like the movie because of plot, it must be because they hate woman. As that has been the crux of the debate. Can you agree that you can like/dislike this movie based simply on the plot and story? Are you capable of admitting that?

 

It seems to be that in order for you guys to accept that people dont like the movie... then the people that dislike it must be misogynists. This is the logic I see. So the woman who hate it are also misogynists? I mean... yeah. I guess women who dislikes it are allowed to not like it based on the plot but guys are not? For guys it must be because they hate women?

As I explained elaborately in the OP, Rey is able to use mind tricks and such due to the fact the Force is manipulating her to be as strong as she is in order to be able to stand against Kylo. She is a tool being used by the Force itself to eliminate all Dark Side users from the galaxy in order to return the balance to the Force.

 

I had a lot more typed out but it started looking like a wall of text. So I will just say this about the plot.

 

TL;DR

So Rey, can literally rest assured that she does not need to train or anything as the force will just continue making her stronger by default to beat up on Kylo. Heck of a plot there.

 

Ole Kylo can hit the gym everyday, but Rey will also be benefiting from his work. I mean, lol I can not go along with this trash.

Edited by NuSeC
Link to comment
Share on other sites


×
×
  • Create New...