Dual Talent Specialization (or dual spec) specialization is the ability to switch between two skill specs.

Now that the definition is out of the way, lets get to discussing how dual spec would impact the Sorcerer class if and when Bioware decides to implement the feature in SW: TOR.

 

What would dual spec imply function wise for the player?

 

With some or no restrictions beyond the obvious... "Not allowed in Combat", as well as a level based or credit based cost.The ability to change between 2 skill specializations would optimally imply the automatic use of a set of action bars for each spec as well as an equipment profile for each specialization if the player so desires.

 

Why would it benefit the player in general and the Sorcerer in particular?

 

Dual talent specialization can be beneficial to players who want to cover multiple roles or participate in different types of content. The Sorcerer being one of the designated "Healer" classes, is frequently assigned the healer role in groups content. Dual spec allows the Sorcerer to set his second talent specialization to take on the damage dealer role and be able to efficiently kill enemies while questing alone, while the PVP minded Sorcerer could tailor one spec for player vs. enemies (PVE) content and the other for player vs. player (PVP) battles.

 

What would the negative impact be of implementing such a system?

 

As easily as the system could lead to player benefits it would lead to community problems, such as:

 

1. Under-geared and unskilled players who are not particular apt to fill any role be it on PVE or PVP content.

 

2. Encouragement of "need looting" behavior to fill gear slots of both of the players specializations, even if the player is not currently using the spec he is rolling gear for.

 

3. Devaluation of certain "Hybrid" or "Less specialized" talent trees. Sorcerers in particular would mainly go between lighting and corruption, leaving madness as little more than a support tree.

 

It would be interesting to get a discussion going here on the Sorcerer forum on how this feature would affect how you played your class and the implications to the game in general.

I'm not going to write a long post here, but personally I'm all for dual specs.

 

Basically there are always a lack of healers and tanks for high level flashpoints which leads to high queue times for pretty much everyone. Alot of people would consider healing/tanking if it wouldn't mean that they had to respec constantly at a high cost if they want a dps spec for PvP (or as main spec for raiding or similar).

 

Even if it might be breaking immersion a bit for people loving the strong RP element of this game, I think it will be beneficial for everyone in the long run to create more activity.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Jigglypants

I come from City of Heroes where dual building is in the game and I didn't mind it over there because each seperate build was still aimed at the same thing (IE: 2 dps builds, 2 tank builds), but I am not in favour of it over here.

 

The reason being is that I chose my Sorceror because I was to DPS, I have zero interest in healing and I never want to be in a group where the healer leaves and the group all turns to look at me asking me to pick my 2nd build and heal for them. I can see the same thing happening to other classes when the tank leaves etc.

 

I know companions are nowhere near as good as players are, but they are in the game and can at a push take the place of a dedicated tank or healer and I would prefer that to dual builds.

 

I would really love to be able to switch between Lightning and Madness builds, but I think the con's outweigh the pro's for me.

 

Edit: I like your posts by the way OP, you seem to create interesting and well written topics.

 

Edit 2: I also know a lot of people are planning to have several alts, and it doesn't look like taking very long to get to level 50 compared to any other MMO I have ever seen.

Edited December 14, 2011 by _Darkstar

This needs to be implemented ASAP i hated having to fork out cash every time i wanted to switch roles back in vanilla wow and i enjoyed the way rift handles specs with allowing up to 5 diff roles you can switch in an out of giving you an option to have a dps pve spec, dps pvp spec, heal pvp spec , heal pve spec and maybe an aoe heavy spec too without having to pay to switch between em all

without having seen the specs yet it would be nice to at least have access to a heal offspec so i could get into a group that way if i have trouble finding room as a dps

This needs to be implemented ASAP i hated having to fork out cash every time i wanted to switch roles back in vanilla wow and i enjoyed the way rift handles specs with allowing up to 5 diff roles you can switch in an out of giving you an option to have a dps pve spec, dps pvp spec, heal pvp spec , heal pve spec and maybe an aoe heavy spec too without having to pay to switch between em all

without having seen the specs yet it would be nice to at least have access to a heal offspec so i could get into a group that way if i have trouble finding room as a dps

 

 

OK, I apologize for this being off-topic, as I think the OP had a very well thought out conversation piece. But Dreambrother, there is a thing called grammar and punctuation. Please look into how to use them properly. If you are ever in doubt, read back what you just wrote and try saying it out loud. If you run out of breath, then you need to enter in some periods.

 

Sorry for going off topic, but these things are a pet peeve of mine.

I fully endorse this thread.

Basically there are always a lack of healers and tanks for high level flashpoints which leads to high queue times for pretty much everyone. Alot of people would consider healing/tanking if it wouldn't mean that they had to respec constantly at a high cost if they want a dps spec for PvP (or as main spec for raiding or similar).

 

I think the versatility of gameplay and player-base are, as you mention, the biggest "pluses" of allowing dual specs.

 

I´m more interested in the "cost" to the community, if any? Will it push it towards a less skilled more greedy player-base? or will it allow for a democratization of the Healer/Tank roles?

 

 

I come from City of Heroes where dual building is in the game and I didn't mind it over there because each seperate build was still aimed at the same thing (IE: 2 dps builds, 2 tank builds), but I am not in favour of it over here.

 

The reason being is that I chose my Sorceror because I was to DPS, I have zero interest in healing and I never want to be in a group where the healer leaves and the group all turns to look at me asking me to pick my 2nd build and heal for them. I can see the same thing happening to other classes when the tank leaves etc.

 

I know companions are nowhere near as good as players are, but they are in the game and can at a push take the place of a dedicated tank or healer and I would prefer that to dual builds.

 

I would really love to be able to switch between Lightning and Madness builds, but I think the con's outweigh the pro's for me.

 

Edit: I like your posts by the way OP, you seem to create interesting and well written topics.

 

Edit 2: I also know a lot of people are planning to have several alts, and it doesn't look like taking very long to get to level 50 compared to any other MMO I have ever seen.

 

I think COH/COV had a style of gameplay and customization that allowed for a perfect implementation of multiple character builds. I´m sure the game had it´s fair share of "min-maxing" but maybe it was not as pronounced as in mmo´s like SW:TOR or WoW?

 

The biggest fear i have seen in the discussions concerning a dual spec system is, arguably, the loss of class identity and function.

 

Sorcerer´s currently can either be Healers or DPS but not both... add dual spec to the mix and you have an unconventional "hybrid" class, where you can fill each role situationaly (but not at the same time or during the same fight).

 

I played a Druid for a long time when WoW launched in Europe, it´s still one of my favorite mmo classes. The jack of all trades but master of none was a good sign to year around my neck and it felt unique enough to make me want to optimize the class mechanics to their fullest.

 

When dual spec was introduced into the mix, i felt like the class lost it´s "uniqueness", i could now spec for each role to maximum effect with no compromises. No longer were druids unique, they were simply there to be asked or told to be Tank´s or Healer´s.

 

Anyways, and back on the topic, i think dual spec should be taken into account as a viable gameplay mechanic when the game is more "mature" and everyone has had the chance to play around with their respective classes to their fullest extent.

 

PS Edit: Thanks, i have a lot of time on my hands at work, as a graphic designer for a small company, i can pretty much schedule my work as i see fit. So that leaves me a lot of time to check the forums and try to argue myself into a corner (don´t tell my wife tho, she would probably force me to proof read for her all day, damned writers)

 

This needs to be implemented ASAP i hated having to fork out cash every time i wanted to switch roles back in vanilla wow and i enjoyed the way rift handles specs with allowing up to 5 diff roles you can switch in an out of giving you an option to have a dps pve spec, dps pvp spec, heal pvp spec , heal pve spec and maybe an aoe heavy spec too without having to pay to switch between em all

without having seen the specs yet it would be nice to at least have access to a heal offspec so i could get into a group that way if i have trouble finding room as a dps

 

If your a good player, playing as a DPS sorcerer shouldn't stop you from finding groups.

 

From my experience, the only difficulty is the initial contact with a PUG, if your truly an awesome dps sorcerer, word will get around and people will actually whisper you to join them in a flashpoint run... this from someone who saw his brother become one of the most kick *** shadow priests on his server.

Edited December 14, 2011 by SySnootles

1. Under-geared and unskilled players who are not particular apt to fill any role be it on PVE or PVP content.

 

This is my main gripe about it. Upwards of 80% of wipes I've experienced are due to someone flipping to a spec they don't know well (and not geared for) instead of waiting 5 minutes to grab someone to fill the role.

 

And yes, with a good guild and lots of non-guildy friends, I rarely had to ever wait more than 5 minutes to fill a spot. And most of that was that person's travel time.

 

Not to mention it leads to rudeness. Being told to switch spec to something I'm not good at or don't have an interest in ... well, you aren't paying for my sub, so nerf off. Anyone being rude enough to demand someone dual spec usually gets kicked in the groups I'm in.

 

Maybe it's just an rp thing, I don't know. But just like I wouldn't use a lawyer to cut grass, I wouldn't ask the DPS Lightning Sorc to switch to healing when he doesn't know the healing rotations that would keep his force bar (and us) up.

I think COH/COV had a style of gameplay and customization that allowed for a perfect implementation of multiple character builds. I´m sure the game had it´s fair share of "min-maxing" but maybe it was not as pronounced as in mmo´s like SW:TOR or WoW?

When CoH/CoV was about 5 years old they released a change that the characters you used to unlock at level 50 became unlocked at level 20 because the majority of the playerbase had not actually hit 50 (The level cap), so yeah you could say it wasn't min/maxed in the way other games are

 

It did however have the capability to be truly overpowered if you were a min/maxer (Like myself) and many people were soloing 8 person team content.

 

But it also encouraged people to have lots of alternate characters, so if I wanted to heal I would hop on my healer, I had dual builds on many toons but they were solo dps, or team dps choices, which made dual builds work well.

There are simply no reasons not to implement dual specs. The only people that are against it are minority of healers and unique butterflies who for some reason want to remain as a valued commodity and don't want to increase their numbers by people who aren't main healers being able to switch to full heals. They don't want their monopoly on healing/tanking/whatever taken away. They want to feel speshul.

 

The arguments are of course silly. I've healed and DPSed in plenty MMOs. Heck, the spec I'm rolling with is a healer/dps hybrid so I won't even gain much from dual spec. The people who think healing is more difficult than DPSing are delusional, or have never been good DPSers. Both styles of gameplay pretty much require the same core skills: spatial awareness, knowing your enemy and your team, knowledge of the game mechanics, dexterity with the mouse and keyboard, etc.

 

Honestly, the classes in this game aren't that complicated, least of all sorcs. Give a good player a sorc, either healer or DPS, and he'll get the hang of it fast. Bad players will be bad no matter what class they play. I'd personally rather have someone that I know is good at DPSing switch to healing than some random healer I don't know.

 

Playing MMOs is like driving. Sure, the cars (classes) might change a bit (weight, transmission, etc) but a good driver will still be a good driver regardless of car. A bad driver can drive the same car for any number of years and still be a ****** driver.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Krytycal

Yeah I love the idea too. I personally felt that Rift went a little too far (who needs 5 specs, really??) but then the system was a little different.

 

I'd love to have the opportunity to try out pew pew lightning. Leveling as a healer is my pleasure but at end game there are definitely times where having a dps spec on hand is very useful.

I see no reason whatsoever for not having dual-spec. Otherwise is plain NOT fun.

Having also come from CoH/CoV I am used to the idea of having multiple builds. They made sense within that game's framework, though. In WoW I dual-spec'd a Paladin but it was for very off-moment times. In the end, to me, I am in favor of choice--and like the OP said especially later as this game matures and we all (including Bioware) have more experience with SWTOR gameplay.

 

While I understand the fellow who suggested a driving metaphor for playing different classes I also do "get accustomed" to playing any individual character a certain way. I'm not averse to suggesting to a team that I could fill in a needed gap but I am averse to teams demanding players change rolls (in general). When the team is used to playing together, however, it's just a matter of communication and team planning.

 

So, after a year this thread should have even deeper insights. In the end if Bioware implements dual-spec they will probably have lots of game mechanics in mind. I'm all for player choice. Whether I chose to dual-spec will depend on whether it's useful for me, however.

Edited December 14, 2011 by cybermanikan

There are simply no reasons not to implement dual specs. The only people that are against it are minority of healers and unique butterflies who for some reason want to remain as a valued commodity and don't want to increase their numbers by people who aren't main healers being able to switch to full heals. They don't want their monopoly on healing/tanking/whatever taken away. They want to feel speshul.

 

The arguments are of course silly. I've healed and DPSed in plenty MMOs. Heck, the spec I'm rolling with is a healer/dps hybrid so I won't even gain much from dual spec. The people who think healing is more difficult than DPSing are delusional, or have never been good DPSers. Both styles of gameplay pretty much require the same core skills: spatial awareness, knowing your enemy and your team, knowledge of the game mechanics, dexterity with the mouse and keyboard, etc.

 

Honestly, the classes in this game aren't that complicated, least of all sorcs. Give a good player a sorc, either healer or DPS, and he'll get the hang of it fast. Bad players will be bad no matter what class they play. I'd personally rather have someone that I know is good at DPSing switch to healing than some random healer I don't know.

 

Playing MMOs is like driving. Sure, the cars (classes) might change a bit (weight, transmission, etc) but a good driver will still be a good driver regardless of car. A bad driver can drive the same car for any number of years and still be a ****** driver.

Did you read this thread? Not one person said anything like that.

 

Also just because I can drive any car doesn't mean I want to jump from a sports car into a jeep. Playing any class in any game is easy for most people who know what they are doing, but it isn't necessarily fun.

There are simply no reasons not to implement dual specs. The only people that are against it are minority of healers and unique butterflies who for some reason want to remain as a valued commodity and don't want to increase their numbers by people who aren't main healers being able to switch to full heals. They don't want their monopoly on healing/tanking/whatever taken away. They want to feel speshul.

 

The arguments are of course silly. I've healed and DPSed in plenty MMOs. Heck, the spec I'm rolling with is a healer/dps hybrid so I won't even gain much from dual spec. The people who think healing is more difficult than DPSing are delusional, or have never been good DPSers. Both styles of gameplay pretty much require the same core skills: spatial awareness, knowing your enemy and your team, knowledge of the game mechanics, dexterity with the mouse and keyboard, etc.

 

Honestly, the classes in this game aren't that complicated, least of all sorcs. Give a good player a sorc, either healer or DPS, and he'll get the hang of it fast. Bad players will be bad no matter what class they play. I'd personally rather have someone that I know is good at DPSing switch to healing than some random healer I don't know.

 

Playing MMOs is like driving. Sure, the cars (classes) might change a bit (weight, transmission, etc) but a good driver will still be a good driver regardless of car. A bad driver can drive the same car for any number of years and still be a ****** driver.

 

Asking a DPS class to use their "weaker" geared Healer role, in the case of a Sorcerer for example, might get your group started faster but you will be missing out on an excellent damage dealer as a trade off... and these days, longer clear times for flashpoints are a big issue with a lot of the community used to 15m Heroics in WoW.

 

You cant generalize a class role as broadly as you just did, well... you can, and did, but it doesn't mean its true. DPS rotations and mana efficiency are different, synergies and rhythm are different. A good damage dealer doesn't make a good healer.

Asking a DPS class to use their "weaker" geared Healer role, in the case of a Sorcerer for example, might get your group started faster but you will be missing out on an excellent damage dealer as a trade off... and these days, longer clear times for flashpoints are a big issue with a lot of the community used to 15m Heroics in WoW.

 

You cant generalize a class role as broadly as you just did, well... you can, and did, but it doesn't mean its true. DPS rotations and mana efficiency are different, synergies and rhythm are different. A good damage dealer doesn't make a good healer.

 

Top sorc gear is exactly the same for DPS and Healing sorcs, they both come with Willpower, Power, Critical, Alacrity, etc, which benefits both heals and DPS. Any argument against dual specs for sorcs based on gear is a moot point.

 

I've both healed and DPSed extensively on my sorc. If we were talking Bounty Hunter here, I'd agree that it takes a little more effort to truly get the hang of it, but it's ridiculously easy to heal or DPS on sorcs with just a couple of firing braincells. Healing rotations and a DPS rotations are similar in that they both should try to maximize efficiency (i.e. using Force Lightning and Innervate to maximize D/HPM) while taking advantage of the synergies each tree offers (i.e. Force Bending and Wrath procs) when available. For someone who's familiar with the core mechanics of a class, the only things that change are the abilities you'll use with each spec.

 

It's actually harder to go from a DPS sorc to another DPS class than to switch roles within sorc. I do agree with one thing though, you'd miss out on some solid damage if you ask a good DPS to switch to healer.

 

I'm not saying people should change roles, I'm against forcing anyone to do anything. People should play whatever they enjoy playing the most, and if you don't want to play as a particular role, simply don't. My posts were mostly aimed to those who have this idea that sorc healing is extremely complicated and hard to master. It isn't.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Krytycal

I'm personally a huge fan of dual specs. While I consider myself primarily a DPS in most games, 99% of the time I'm a tank or healer in parties with my friends/family. I like when it's easy to swap between my "off time" (DPS) and my "serious time" (support). Having to go respec each time my partner and I group up with our friends is a PITA. Basically, I'll still have a dual spec in the sense that I'll have two specs I swap between, but it will be much clunkier in this game then in say WoW.

Duel spec's makes sense, and if TOR released WITH duel specs I would have been impressed. I mean, how difficult is it to implement if you have a system that accounts for respecing already right?

 

I would actually be in favor of THREE spec choices or Triple Spec. I have played many toons in WoW and there's so much diversity in each character's progression. For example I mainly started a priest to heal raids. By the end game, I had enough gear to switch to pve dps when needed. This gives your toon major flexibility and allows raid leaders to truely bring the player and not the class. If you fulfill multiple roles, then can count on you to meet the needs of the raid group and not have to find someone else.

 

For the folks who only want to dps on a sorc, you clearly have that option as well. Just explain your 2nd spec is for pvp or whatever and they won't force you into healing. No one should force you to do anything in this game, you pay for it and you should play what you want.

 

Now saying that, you never know what you might like or not. I initially played a paladin and found myself dual spec healing at one point and I actually enjoyed it. Not only are there a lack of healers, there's a huge lack of GOOD healers in WoW. So I filled that niche and enjoyed a different aspect of the game than I originally started.

 

I generally like to stay on one toon if possible, just find leveling to be sort of dull once you've done it a few times. So I would prefer to have my AC be able to fill as many roles as I can. Now saying that, that's where triple spec comes into play.

 

Normally people play an AC with 2 role possibilities. Sith ***'s can tank or dps. Sith Sorc's can heal or dps. Then you throw in the pvp aspect, which is totally different than PvE. You would pickup the PvP talents instead, maybe even use a hybrid build. That's why I would like triple spec in the game:

 

1) Main PvE Spec

2) Offspec for PvE

3) PvP oriented spec

 

Folks that have played paladins or druids in WoW know where I'm coming from. They can play tank, healer, or dps and are limited by duel spec's. If they want to PvP, that's a 4th spec. And druids can be ranged or melee dps, which could even warrent a FIFTH spec. Three spec's is plenty for me though.

Without going over the extensively written posts here, there's no point in a dual spec. You can't change your AC, so that's out, and you can respec at cost. You want to PVP? Build for it. You want to tank? Build for that instead. You want to do both? You build a tank and use your tank spec in PVP to guard another player. The system works fine without dual specs.

I approve of this thread.

 

Please bring us Dual Spec, but don't rush it. At this point there are barely anyone at level 50

 

Rather have you fix the self-targeting healing modifier first!

I approve of this thread.

 

Please bring us Dual Spec, but don't rush it. At this point there are barely anyone at level 50

 

Rather have you fix the self-targeting healing modifier first!

 

Indeed, i favor this opinion more and more. Let the game mature before introducing dual spec.

This needs to be implemented ASAP i hated having to fork out cash every time i wanted to switch roles back in vanilla wow and i enjoyed the way rift handles specs with allowing up to 5 diff roles you can switch in an out of giving you an option to have a dps pve spec, dps pvp spec, heal pvp spec , heal pve spec and maybe an aoe heavy spec too without having to pay to switch between em all

without having seen the specs yet it would be nice to at least have access to a heal offspec so i could get into a group that way if i have trouble finding room as a dps

 

i'm all for dual spec as well..switching from one roll to the other would surely benefit the grp and raid as a whole.