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Request to Change Project and Throw, with suggestions and examples…

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Request to Change Project and Throw, with suggestions and examples…

Dyvim's Avatar


Dyvim
12.15.2011 , 03:27 PM | #1
EDIT...going to start with a summary of ideas, as the thread and discussion has progressed...original post and my reasoning follows...

Option Grp A...Possible changes to Project to remove delay, increase coolness factor and get away from junk throwing:

1) The Inquisitor companion, Ashara Zavros, a fallen padawan, has a skill called Force Burst. It is the best mirror animation for Shock I have seen in the game. It is instant, has a quick hand gesture, and has no projectile...the target is hit with force energy...almost exactly like what shock does....it is described in the tooltip as "A powerful burst of force energy that deals kinetic damage...". Here is a photo that compares the two, Force Burst and Shock, side by side:

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8...rstvsshock.jpg

2) It turns out that the sith side is full of all the good jedi ani's...the Agent has a companion named Raina Temple...and she is force sensitive...and she ALSO has a power called Force Burst...with ANOTHER animation, different from Ashara's. And this animation is exactly what some people had envisioned when suggesting a Project replacement...basically its a beefed up "force blow up a container" animation...

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/1658/forceburst.jpg

again, blue background on hoth, but you get the idea....

So, on the sith side, there are TWO companions with TWO separate animations for a skill called Force Burst. Either animation would make a great instant replacement for chunk a clunker...and be a better mirror for shock. They are instant, dont involve junk, and are environmentally independent...and they are force push variants.

3) Simply replace project with a consular saber throw (Paradoxfoxx's idea). This works for several GREAT reasons...a) The saberthrow animation in this game looks awesome with its motion blur effect, b) Consulars have no saberthrow, yet with a class that can "throw" things, what makes more sense for a jedi to start with than his/her lightsaber? c) this is WELL documented in canon and is truly a neutral power. d) The double hit effect could look awesome with a quick boomerang motion in the animation...most of this is already in the game.

4) Simply switch the Project and Disturbance animations. Project looks and feels like an activation time type of animation...it takes time to pull up debris, spin it in the air, then throw it. Disturbance can easily have its wind up shortened into one smooth casting motion and go as an instant ability. That way shadows will get at least one skill that looks like what Satele did in Hope, and chunk a clunker will still be around for sages. But it will help move the basis of the class towards force energy and away from junk. This is already in the game.

5) Take the animation for "Force blow up an explosive container", beef up the force energy projectile a bit, and use that to replace project. Most of this is already in the game. This was suggested by other players, and is related to the Raina Temple force burst animation above, IMO.

6) See my description below for taking Satele's first attack in Hope and using something like that as a replacement. See below.

7) See my description below to replace the junk in chunk a clunker with a force created zephyr, which we already "create" in the telekinetic wave and forcequake ani's, and hurl the zephyr at the target. Force Whirlwind is an established jedi skill and was in kotor...

Option Grp B...Changes to Throw...

1) Replace throw with a version of Satele's second attack on Malgus...She uses two hands to generate a ball of force, and from this comes a shockwave that is much more powerful than her first attack/jab, but also takes longer to generate. I would make this basically a series of PULSES from that ball of force over the channeling of the skill, with a focussed series of shockwave projectiles. More wave-like, continuous (like pebblestorm is continous) than Disturbance or Telekinetic Wave since it is channeled, and they are discrete attacks. but similar to them in appearance and theme.

Option Grp C...Other....

1) Combine current Project and Forcequake...Forcequake is a channeled ability. Right now the current animation is ok, but if you are pvping or in a grp with multiple sages, it is impossible to tell which sage is quaking which area...

So as part of my suggestion to get rid of the current project and throw animations and completely replace them, I am also suggesting that they combine the current project with the current forcequake...So instead of the small zephyrs on each side of the toon, which are the same as in telekinetic wave (they make sense for wave, but not so much for quake), just have the project animation (the double talent version) fire off, and send objects into the kill zone...hopefully environment correct objects....

2) Use the Legacy system as a vehicle for providing alternate skins for the starter skills that are used throughout the life of the class, like project and throw. Some Sith would also like this, the ones that complain about too much lightning. NOTICE, I am asking for NEW animations, as a legacy reward, not recycling exising ones and switching them around. This would also make re-leveling a little more enjoyable for some, as you would get to watch different moves, perhaps ones you like better, in the cinematic combat.

3) Allow ALIGNMENT to impact the skins of some of the abilities. This is a tough one, because it impacts LOE on animation creation, AND would have ot be well done to avoid pvp faction recognition...but just as alignment impacts the color of lightsaber that a toon can use, it makes sense, and would add REAL consequence, if your alignment affected the appearance of your abilities...

ORIGINAL Post

Long post, sorry. Combat animations in this game are very important and very important to me for the Consular and Sage class. The game is built around cinematic combat.

So I look at the consular/sage skills as, hopefully, having a similar theme (kinetic force effects) and building upon each other as your toon advances. Kinetic force effects work because they are cool looking, undeniably lightside, and are INDEPENDENT of the environment - they look good anywhere. No more rocks out of starship decks, or magical droid graveyards everywhere at your feet. No more magically appearing endless gravel for pebblestorms...

OK, Im going to talk about the following abilities:

Project - first ranged skill learned. Supposed to be instant, but ani causes delay in damage. Ani is my least favorite, I call it chunk a clunker. You pull up endless supplies of environment inappropriate objects from at your feet and throw them at enemies (Rocks out of starships decks). The objects pop up, right into your field of view, and spin, which I find very annoying/distracting. Also, in lore, throwing objects is a darkside, temper tantrum, skill. In the movies vader, dooku, and palpitane do it. In games, all the way back to df2:JK, throwing debris was a darkside skill.

Project ability remains important to the class because its instant, and talent can give 45% to fire a free second attack, with reduced damage. This should be the Consulars jab - a quick punch with a chance to stun, and a chance to "double up" on the jab, or hit twice, fast with it.

Throw - Channeled ability. Does more damage. Takes longer. Kind of like a back punch, to carry the boxing analogy. Used early on as a 1-2 with Project then Throw (front punch/back punch combo). Becomes a staple of the class, as talent can remove cooldown from the skill, so you can spam it endlessly. Also several other talents are associated with it. Current Ani is the pebblestorm. Second most despised animation. Not as annoying, but looks as polished and sophisticated as something out of DF2 Jedi Knight from 14 years ago.

Screen of pebblestorm as is:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/11/throwo.jpg/

Project and Throw are used countless times, more than any other skill animation for the class. They should be 5 star ani's, the best of the best. They arent.

Disturbance - Finally we get into kinetic force type animations with advanced class Sage selectoin at level 10. Has a 1.5 sec activation timer. Animation is one handed, produces a ball of force that is hurled at target. Very cool animation. Still shot doesnt do it justice.

Screen of Disturbance Ani as is:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...sturbance.jpg/


Telekinetic Wave - Unlocked in talent tree, aoe attack. Two handed animation with 3 sec activation timer. As you raise both arms, two force cyclones/tornadoes/zephyrs are generated under your arms and produce a large wave or projectile of kinetic energy. VERY cool looking. Still shot doesnt do it justice.

Screen of Telekinetic Wave as is:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...neticwave.jpg/

OK, now for my proposals. I think all of these consular/sage ani's should share the theme/animation style of kinetic force effects.

Project - FIRST option - it should be a quick telekinetic force jab, the TRUE mirror of the Inquisitor's shock. Model it after Satele's first attack on Malgus in the Hope trailer where she leads off with a one handed attack...

Screens of Satele's 1st attack...

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/3/satelejab.jpg/

The effect on the receiving end could be something like getting hit with a small amount of force energy. Picture the effect of the "turbulence" or disturbance as a toon uses Force Speed...just a quick impact of a smalll chunk of force energy...

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...orcespeed.jpg/

EDIT: Jackbooten rightly pointed out, on about page 19, lol, that there is already a skill/animation similar to what I was talking about in game as the "Force blow up an explosive container" skill/animation. TY. Some screenies.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...ceproject.jpg/ Great Toon animation...

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...eproject1.jpg/ The projectile effect itself needs a little more uumph, but is instant, and superior to shock since you really can see where it is coming from...someone mentioned earlier that people were un happy that shock looked alot like the inquisitor stun-style cc. There is no way this we could confused with the consular stun...

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...eproject2.jpg/ Again, the projectile effect isnt the best right now, it is fairly tame, but it is still cool and a great place to start from considering the toon animation is already there....


SECOND option - Using the same toon animation for project now, where the toon raises his left hand up as he pulls up the clunker, then pushes it to the target, INSTEAD have the toon generate a force cyclone, then push it to the target. When we learn Telekinetic wave, we generate TWO cyclones. Makes sense that early on, we could create one. Also, the pieces for this ani are already there...the toon movement, the general look of the cyclone, etc.

Screen of toon conjuring clunker - would be the same toon motion for generating cyclone:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...conjuring.jpg/

Screen of toon pushing clunker - again would be the same toon motion for pushing cyclone to target:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...bjecthurl.jpg/

Screen of the cyclones generated during activation of Telekinetic Wave...I would envision a slightly denser cyclone for the replacement for Project:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...ctivation.jpg/

Both of these option are superior to the current chunk a clunker because: They look good/work in ANY environment. They are more in line with lightside force skills and mesh better with the other consular/sage skills learned later on. NO more rocks out of starship decks, or holocrons everywhere, or power cores buried in forests, or vast underground droid scrap heaps located EVERYWHERE at your feet.

EDIT: THIRD, quick and easy option...

Switch the Project and Disturbance animations. Project, with its delay, could be PERFECTLY engineered to work with the 1.5 sec activation time that current disturbance has. And the disturbance animation could easily have its wind up speeded up to be instant.

That way, chunk a clunker stays in the game, for its fans. It just would not be as ubiquitous or the foundation of the classes ranged skills. And it would work better, because it is NOT an instant ani, and should have an activation timer. It takes time to rip up stuff magically from te ground. Of course I would also like to see it become environemntally aware.

Also, for shadows, this means that they would AT LEAST get one skill animation that would look something like what they see Satele do, and that BOTH of their basic ranged skills, project and throw, would not be based of junk/debris throwing...

I think it is a reasonable compromise that could be done by BW with lower effort as well.


OK...now for THROW. Go with Satele's second attack on Malgus. She uses two hands to generate a ball of force, and from this comes a shockwave that is much more powerful than her first attack/jab, but also takes longer to generate. I would make this basically a series of PULSES from that ball of force over the channeling of the skill, with a focussed series of shockwave projectiles. More wave-like, continuous (like pebblestorm is continous) than Disturbance or Telelkinetic Wave since it is channeled, and they are discrete attacks. but similar to them in appearance and theme.

Screen of Satele's 2nd Attack:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...backpunch.jpg/

For reference, a screen of force wave. Imagine, instead of a 360 degree effect, one that is directed to a target, with about the same width and "footprint" of the force lightning animation.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/97/forcewave.jpg/

A final note, Satele is a saberstaff wielding shadow...shadows have project and throw. Not disturbance or telekinetic wave. Project and throw need to be changed into kinetic force style animations that the later, more advanced Sage skills build on...all players will see that video. Those moves are heroic. They are a 1-2 punch. They should be in the game. They should be the FOUNDATION for the Consular and Sage...NOT chunk a clunker and pebblestorm.

Some people like the rocks. I can understand that, and opinions vary. But for all the reasons I have laid out above, they just dont work, especially not on the lightside. And especially not with the environmentally inappropriate way the animations "work".

EDIT:

Idea for keeping Project ani in the game by combining it with the current Forcequake ani...

Forcequake is a channeled ability. Right now the current animation is ok, but if you are pvping or in a grp with multiple sages, it is impossible to tell which sage is quaking which area...

So as part of my suggestion to get rid of the current project and throw animations and completely replace them, I am also suggesting that they combine the current project with the current forcequake...

Here is how it would work. Take the current forcequake ani:


http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...orcequake.jpg/

So instead of the small zephyrs on each side of the toon, which are the same as in telekinetic wave (they make sense for wave, but not so much for quake), just have the project animation (the double talent version) fire off, and send objects into the kill zone...hopefully environment correct objects, unlike the rocks out of the starship deck as pictured below:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...leclunker.jpg/

So during the channeling of the quake, you would have a couple of objects from either side of the toon be thrown into the kill zone of the quake effectively combining the two animations. This is similar to the lightning that is cast into the kill zone on the Sith side. This would preserve chunk a clunker for the people that like it, and beef up forcequake, so that you can actually tell which sage is quaking which area from the objects that are coming from the sage and being thrown into the kill zone...

tl;dr My goal is to have all animations on the Sage side as thematic and awesome as what is on the Sorcerer side. Thanks.
The Crystal is the Heart of the Blade.
The Heart is the Crystal of the Jedi.
The Jedi is the Crystal of the Force.
The Force is the Blade of the Heart.
All are Intertwined...the Crystal, the Blade, the Jedi...

msklein's Avatar


msklein
12.15.2011 , 03:58 PM | #2
I think Dyvim brings up some very good points and suggestions. I agree that the animations for project and Telekinetic throw are both underwhelming and the animations for disturbance and telekinetic wave are awesome. These two underwhelming animations are even more obvious when compared to the Sith Inquisitor's animations which are spectacular in my opinion. However I do realize that these points should have probably been brought up in the beta phase and not a few days before release, but if there is any possibility that these could be altered in the future (obviously not before launch) it would be much appreciated.

ceaillinden's Avatar


ceaillinden
12.15.2011 , 04:05 PM | #3
I support this 100%. Great ideas!

Xezkaiel's Avatar


Xezkaiel
12.15.2011 , 04:16 PM | #4
I admit it was a good read with good suggestions, but I really honestly don't mind the pebble flinging. I figure, sure its not as cool as lightening, but being pelted by high speed pebbles would be like getting slammed with rubber bullets (which hurt like hell). I think they should simply fly at the enemy a little faster to actually LOOK painful. Other than that, I am pretty pleased, but thats just me =)

Dyvim's Avatar


Dyvim
12.15.2011 , 04:25 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by msklein View Post
I think Dyvim brings up some very good points and suggestions. I agree that the animations for project and Telekinetic throw are both underwhelming and the animations for disturbance and telekinetic wave are awesome. These two underwhelming animations are even more obvious when compared to the Sith Inquisitor's animations which are spectacular in my opinion. However I do realize that these points should have probably been brought up in the beta phase and not a few days before release, but if there is any possibility that these could be altered in the future (obviously not before launch) it would be much appreciated.
Thx. These problemmed animations were brought up in beta, build after build, in numerous threads by many different players. I was hoping they would be changed for launch, but I am still hopeful they will get changed at some point...

Many ideas were brought up. Bottom line was that for many players these were absolutely the two least liked ani's, and yet they are the most used for the class. A very very bad combination.
The Crystal is the Heart of the Blade.
The Heart is the Crystal of the Jedi.
The Jedi is the Crystal of the Force.
The Force is the Blade of the Heart.
All are Intertwined...the Crystal, the Blade, the Jedi...

Nightswail's Avatar


Nightswail
12.15.2011 , 04:32 PM | #6
100% agree. The horrible Project / Throw animations are the sole reason I'll be rolling a Sith Inquisitor instead of a sage, even though I'd much rather be republic.

AstralFire's Avatar


AstralFire
12.15.2011 , 04:43 PM | #7
I like these animations.
JEDI SHADOW

The Rebellion is reborn today. The war is just beginning. And I will not be the last Jedi.

Rathy's Avatar


Rathy
12.15.2011 , 04:49 PM | #8
Personally, I like the Throw animation myself, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be improved. Its simplistic, and it looks nice, but its got nothing on lightning. Nothing that would change my faction for a class though.

As for project, that one needs a little work.

BenAdaephonDelat's Avatar


BenAdaephonDelat
12.15.2011 , 05:12 PM | #9
Just keep submitting feedback and they will get changed. They have changed shadowbolt in WoW how many times? And we only had to beg for green fire for 3+ years before they put it in the game =)

So keep at it and I am sure they will eventually patch or hotfix in some different animations.


And while it is def possible for them to hotfix these before launch I would rather they work on making the game stable first, like let me log in for more than 5 seconds before I get error 9000 server crash
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kevshootit's Avatar


kevshootit
12.15.2011 , 05:45 PM | #10
ABSOLUTELY, COMPLETELY, ENTHUSIASTICALLY

AGREE 100%

great ideas, great presentation, AWESOME vision for the force attacks for consulars

for those that love rock clunker and pebble throw, definitely they should be kept in the game, just make them higher level, higher damage or special utility SAGE attacks. seems to me THROWING a rock (with gravity and momentum) would travel FARTHER than a force attack anyways.

I really think most shadows would LOVE having quicker, more "striking" looking force attacks for their spammed mid-range abilities and sages wouldn't mind having to see those cooler animations on TOP of still being able to use the rock stuff if they so choose

PLEASE consider this devs and GREAT job Dyvim