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Strongholds Need Some Serious Dev Attention

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Strongholds Need Some Serious Dev Attention

Sorrai's Avatar


Sorrai
08.07.2019 , 04:43 AM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by JediBoadicea View Post
1. Increase the X/Y axes on decorations.
2. Guild flagships desperately need to have their HOOK CAP RAISED.
3. Guilds need to be permitted to unlock more than one ground stronghold.
4. Individual players need to be permitted to buy duplicate copies of a stronghold.
5. Address the stronghold cap by raising it significantly or removing it entirely (players who retained stronghold copies because of the server merge should not be locked out of ever acquiring new strongholds).
6. The strongholds assets and development team needs to be sat down and talked to seriously about ways to dramatically improve the decorating experience, in terms of decorations themselves and especially hook placement.
I am happy to see this thread getting some much-needed traction. While I have plenty to add I don't want to deviate from the OP's original laundry list in the above quote by throwing my own wish list into the works. There are hundreds of posts already out there that offer some great ideas.

I do want to express my own extreme frustration, disappointment and dissatisfaction that the Dev team has continuously ignored the needs of the Stronghold community for so long. I am an avid decorator who capitalized on the last server merge and ended up with multiple copies. However, when Rishi came out and I tried to purchase it I received a message prompt from the Rishi SH terminal alerting me that I was over my limit and that I could not purchase the new stronghold until I was back under the current cap of 10. I did not do this because I hated the idea of losing all my extra copies due to some arbitrary limit cap. I do not consider being forced to delete multiple copies of a SH in order to make room for 1 to be a fair exchange, so I had no choice but to abstain from purchasing Rishi, remain patient and hope that this new issue that had arisen would be addressed by the Devs.

In this post I'd like to focus specifically on Points 4 and 5: Current stronghold caps and allowing players to purchase multiple copies.

A year has passed and there has been not been a single word from the Devs about these issues and the many other QoL issues that have been a tremendous source of frustration for the Stronghold community.

I imagine most of the people who didn't capitalize on the server merge could care less about this situation, and might think that those of us who managed to acquire multiple SH copies to be cheating or exploiting the system in some way. To those of you who think I am just being greedy or spoiled and believe I should delete all my extra copies if I truly want to unlock Rishi my question is: why should I have to? Why should I be forced to delete these precious copies I was fortunate enough to get from the merger in order to unlock a new stronghold? A better question I have is: why can't players simply be allowed to purchase as many extra copies of a SH that they want? Why is there such a small cap to begin with? If anything, the server merge--whether it was by sheer mistake or some kind of coding fluke--proved that it was indeed possible for players to possess multiple copies of strongholds, so why continue to impose these limitations of only 1 type of SH per player and a maximum of 10 total?

Some of you scratch your heads as to why anybody would need or want multiple copies of a stronghold. To them I simply ask: is it really that hard for you to guess? If so, then here is my very simple answer: An empty stronghold is a fresh new canvas. As a SH decorator I would much rather have multiple canvases to design a variety of layouts rather than be limited to just one. It's as simple as that. While Strongholds were originally intended to be a kind of supplemental game mechanic for the Conquest system, time has proven that they ultimately serve far better as an outlet for creative expression.

While I certainly appreciate the addition of Rishi, we still have a relatively limited selection of strongholds to choose from. Some locales happen to be much more versatile than others, and I would like to have the option of acquiring multiple copies of a stronghold so I have the freedom and satisfaction of decorating any locale I wish in a variety of themes and layouts suited to my tastes. The last server merge has already proven that it is absolutely possible for players to own multiple copies without breaking the game... so why continue to impose these limitations on us?

OlBuzzard's Avatar


OlBuzzard
08.07.2019 , 06:42 AM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
My experience tells me there won’t be any changes in 6.0 because it will all be about new playable content and class /gear changes,
If they have strong hold stuff planned, I would not expect to see it till 6.2 or 6.3 because 6.1 will be about bug fixes and balancing classes around new abilities and gear changes. So basically April-May next year is when it would be delivered and would be announced at the end of January when they get back from Xmas holidays.
I would agree that the primary thrust of 6.0 would be centered around revamping class , gear , playable content. And I would also agree that it will be closer to April for the next major phase (we'll call it 6.1 or 6.2). Hopefully in that release we can see a new class (OT.. we'll save that for later) and most importantly improvements in areas such as the strongholds.

BUT... if things work out that way... I can wait until then to get what we really would like to see in game.
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TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
08.07.2019 , 07:07 AM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by OlBuzzard View Post
I would agree that the primary thrust of 6.0 would be centered around revamping class , gear , playable content. And I would also agree that it will be closer to April for the next major phase (we'll call it 6.1 or 6.2). Hopefully in that release we can see a new class (OT.. we'll save that for later) and most importantly improvements in areas such as the strongholds.

BUT... if things work out that way... I can wait until then to get what we really would like to see in game.
I wish you luck my friend. As I’m not sure I will be able to post for much longer because I’ve unsubbed. I hope you get your wish and the game gets what it deserves in the next 6-12 months.

Sarova's Avatar


Sarova
08.07.2019 , 07:11 AM | #34
I somehow missed this post back in February, however JediBoadicea raised some excellent points on behalf of us Stronghold enthusiasts. I wholeheartedly support:
Quote: Originally Posted by JediBoadicea View Post
4. Individual players need to be permitted to buy duplicate copies of a stronghold. I started banging this drum before Rishi came out, and it became all the more relevant after Rishi came out and the stronghold cap wasn't raised. In the time since the Rishi SH release, we've seen a (wonderful) increase in direct sale decos, and a (wonderful) increase in deco availability from other means in game. And as this has happened, I've seen a marked increase in decorators commenting that they are now collecting all sorts of decos they can't actually use anywhere because they've got nowhere to put them - not without sacrificing previous work they've done. New decorations are clearly going to be coming out regularly while new strongholds are not so frequent, so this is an imbalance that is only going to keep increasing. As I've mentioned elsewhere, the server merge proved individuals can have duplicate copies of a stronghold. Please give us the ability to unlock additional copies and stronghold slots by choice. Decorators who can unlock more SH copies are going to want to fill them, and that means they'll buy more decos.

5. Address the stronghold cap. There are other players like myself who are already at cap thanks to the server merge. I still don't have Rishi because of it. With every new SH released more players are going to be in the same position. The time to address this was a year ago before Rishi came out, but certainly it needs to be addressed before the next SH comes out (whether that's a Dantooine SH or anything else). We haven't heard a single whisper from the devs on this question, and that silence is fueling frustration. It's proven that the game can support a player having way more than the current SH cap of 10 (up to 35 in fact). If it's never going to be more than 10, then at least let us know. It means I'll probably never have reason to unlock future SHs, and a lot less incentive for buying all those new decos... but then that's the point I'm trying to make. A necessary cap is one thing. An arbitrary one is another. We need to know which kind we're dealing with.
I have posted and suggested via PM about being allowed to have/buy duplicates of existing strongholds many times. This would greatly enhance my "reasons to stay subbed" thinking. I prefer the small-to-medium size strongholds (Nar Shadaa in particular) and would love to be able to buy more of these to decorate in various themes. The larger strongholds tend to have awful hook placements or be irritating to navigate (Manaan I found to be very disappointing in reality - the hook placements are just awful, especially in the first open are, the Umbara train is annoying to Navigate and Yavin/Tatooine are just too massive with badly placed hooks). Rishi was altered after PTS feedback from decorators (myself included) which led to it being much more decorator friendly, but it is still far too big for me. I would buy/unlock more Nar Shaddaas for any price should having additional/duplicate strongholds become available.


Quote: Originally Posted by JediBoadicea View Post
6. The strongholds assets and development team needs to be sat down and talked to seriously about ways to dramatically improve the decorating experience, in terms of decorations themselves and especially hook placement. Right now, and dating back to the release of the Yavin SH, the overwhelming impression that an avid decorator gets from looking at new decorations created for the game, and the way hooks are laid, is that the strongholds team members have not actually spent any significant amount of time using the system to decorate. This isn't about asking them to do more work than they're already doing, it's about asking them to do more thoughtful work. To wit:
  • When new decorations are created, whoever is determining what hooks they can go on needs to be so much more thoughtful. Far, far too many decorations are locked to Centerpiece hooks when they could very easily fit on Larges (look at the new Primordial Altar for example). This dramatically limits our ability to use them, and makes them much less desirable purchases. (I mean, for pity's sake, there is only ONE SINGLE Centerpiece hook on a guildship anywhere outside the Hangar deck.)
    • In line with the above, if a decoration can be fitted on a Medium hook without fully obscuring the hook in at least some of its dimensions, then make sure it can be used on a Medium and not locked to a Large. The team did a great job listening to our feedback about the Martial wall decos, making them usable on Mediums and Medium Narrows, and that has turned them into some of the most useful and versatile decorations in the whole game. This should be the standard for ALL decos. Your team members need to not assign hooks to decos by eyeballing or assumptions - please actually take the extra seconds or minutes needed to PLACE them and see if they could fit on a wider range of hooks. The smallest hook they can fit on without fully obscuring the hook is what they should be assigned to, smallest hook and every hook size larger.
  • People laying hooks need to stop approaching this as a pattern-making exercise. The goal should not be to fit blue, green, and pink blocks in such a way that pretty patterns are made while in editing mode. The goal should be to achieve as much floor/wall coverage as possible, using the largest hooks possible provided they can be broken down into smaller ones. This problem was egregious with Manaan, and it was pretty bad with Rishi too in its first iterations. Don't lay a Small hook if a Medium Narrow would fit in the same space. Don't use a Narrow if a Medium would fit in the same space. Don't use a Medium if a Large would fit in the same space. Do not leave huge sections of open ground with no hooks, especially not near walls, and especially not so far away from the next hook that those measly 20 degrees of axis movement won't allow us to close the gap. Remember that we can't even get those pretty new and narrow Weapon Rack displays to the edge of a Large hook, so how much worse are they going to look floating alone in space when there's also a huge gap between that Large hook and the next hook over?
  • Pretty decoration design is nice, but it's no substitute for correct dimensions. The people designing new decos need to actually test and analyze them before they are finalized for sale. This means that if you are designing a chair or a couch, you need to test if an avatar can actually use the /chair emote on them and not end up floating two feet above the chair (we're not playing Zuul possession and sleeping four feet above our covers, we are trying to approximate usability). Decorations like the Zakuulan Socialite Couch are scaled completely wrong for avatars to actually appear like they are sitting on them. The couch in the newer Mandalorian decos bundle is the same. Many of the larger throne-style arrangements have this problem too. Body type 4 avatars can't fit at all in many of the chairs. This doesn't just make decos weird to "use" for RPer types, it also makes them not scale correctly with other decorations in the same setting, which limits their functionality and desirability.
It might be an idea to involve the decorating enthusiasts in developing/testing future SH hook placements and overall stronghold design. Granted, there may be many views on placements, however the feedback from the Rishi SH PTS shows that we can reach a consensus.

The OP mentioned that this wasn't a thread for individual issues, however, I must mention that bought decorations are still being overridden in the decoration list by in-game decorations (e.g. the nightlife event patrons overrode our underworld pack patrons which many of us bought directly from the Cartel Market). This is making me reluctant to buy more decorations from the CM until it is fixed. Is anyone in the Dev department giving this any attention? If not, refund us please. Stronghold decoration fixes should not take years.
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Xina_LA's Avatar


Xina_LA
08.07.2019 , 07:32 AM | #35
I understand the need to add more core content to the game.
Although I didn't notice many threads calling for class rebalancing, if it's needed, it's needed.
So I'm not expecting a whole revamp of the SH system, just a few key upgrades would do.
And... bug fixes.

At least for me, the wait for stronghold upgrades wouldn't be so frustrating if every release of new decorations in the last year wasn't buggy. Seriously, it's no exaggeration. I'm being quite literal here. We've seen decos that don't show in inventory, don't sit properly in the hook, have a duplicate name and block out other decos, can't be donated to a guild, don't respond to Rotation controls.... you get the idea. This includes event decos (IE: NIghtlife and Pirate Incursion) and new Cartel Market releases.

The Search box bug still hasn't been fully fixed. You can end up having to restart your client.

There's a bug where you can Reset the decoration's X/Y and rotation settings and the UI updates but the deco doesn't move.

And so on. The general sloppiness gives the impression that Bioware really doesn't care about the SH decorating community. How long has it been since QA droid posted about these issues?

Much of the good will that might have been earned by releasing new decorations is lost when they're buggy and don't get fixed in a timely manner.

TLDR: We do need Dev attention. QUALITY attention, not more slap-dash, distracted attention.
--=# Decorating addict of Satele Shan server. #=--

JediQuaker's Avatar


JediQuaker
08.07.2019 , 11:02 AM | #36
Mostly, I'd like to see more "ordinary" furniture. There seems to be a general lack of beds, sofas, comfy chairs, bookshelves, coffee tables, etc - things that would make a Stronghold a home. (And when there are, they usually have to be some sort of uncomfortable looking Zakuul, Mandolorian, etc things rather than just "Acme Furniture" )
However, I do realize that it appears as though many people like things to be more "star-warsy" so, I suppose I'm in the minority and have to make do with the scraps.

(I have the same complaint about armor/clothing as well. Not everyone in the SW universe (and even in the movies) is always dressed in some sort of oddball gear with spikes, hoses, backpacks, etc "weird" stuff on it.)
(It was nice to see them come out with the "beach wear" set, but really, only the shorts are sort of "normal" and even then they have to ruin them with 2 colour strips down the front for no reason. It could be so much better with some sort of normal top with regular sandals/flip-flops)

Just had another thought - how about wrist guards where one looks like a watch type device and one is transparent.
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fushnchips's Avatar


fushnchips
08.07.2019 , 12:31 PM | #37
The mistake they made from day 1 was using a hook system they should have had the same style as other games where you can place deco's anywhere you want within reason it's a complete mess in my eyes and needs to be changed in future strongholds not to use some horrid hook system that is bad and then getting stuck on decorations is another flaw some you can't even /stuck on due to placement.
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OlBuzzard's Avatar


OlBuzzard
08.07.2019 , 12:32 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
I wish you luck my friend. As I’m not sure I will be able to post for much longer because I’ve unsubbed. I hope you get your wish and the game gets what it deserves in the next 6-12 months.
I appreciate your kind words... and I wish you would reconsider your decision regarding subscription !
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Rrusalka's Avatar


Rrusalka
08.07.2019 , 01:04 PM | #39
Bugged decorations with the same names is fairly annoying. They should have a master list so such things don't happen. Looking at you Nightlife and Underworld Patrons that cost CC.

I would love more placement options from rotation, location and especially height. Not having npc decorations falling through furniture without watching the SH intro would be so nice. Getting those instruments and npc's up on the concert stage. Or chairs, couches, beds, tables that it takes so much trick placement to get npc's to stay at now.

OlBuzzard's Avatar


OlBuzzard
08.07.2019 , 01:09 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by JediQuaker View Post
Mostly, I'd like to see more "ordinary" furniture. There seems to be a general lack of beds, sofas, comfy chairs, bookshelves, coffee tables, etc - things that would make a Stronghold a home. (And when there are, they usually have to be some sort of uncomfortable looking Zakuul, Mandolorian, etc things rather than just "Acme Furniture" )
However, I do realize that it appears as though many people like things to be more "star-warsy" so, I suppose I'm in the minority and have to make do with the scraps.

(I have the same complaint about armor/clothing as well. Not everyone in the SW universe (and even in the movies) is always dressed in some sort of oddball gear with spikes, hoses, backpacks, etc "weird" stuff on it.)
(It was nice to see them come out with the "beach wear" set, but really, only the shorts are sort of "normal" and even then they have to ruin them with 2 colour strips down the front for no reason. It could be so much better with some sort of normal top with regular sandals/flip-flops)

Just had another thought - how about wrist guards where one looks like a watch type device and one is transparent.
I agree completely !!!

There are not enough "practical" items that can be used when setting up a SH. Even if a player wants to set up rooms with particular themes in a room: ie. Zakuul or trophies from Zakuul. There's just not enough items from that era that can fill an entire area ! You might find some bazaar science piece ... then a couple of sky trooper displays .. maybe a piece that hangs on the wall as a trophy of sorts. AFTER that we need to figure out to make that work with hanging moss for the walls or corner ruins in the middle of the room.

It's too bad that we can't consistently get normal furniture or FLOOR LAMPS and other sources of lights. As it stands now we can't even place enough of our companions, pets, and/ or models in ONE SH without getting that nasty notice that we have reached our limit for placing NPC's in that same SH !!! Good grief... too many restrictions on the simple items.

I have to admit though .. I have found the fish tanks from Manaan very helpful in more than one SH location (Even the balcony at Tatooine).

BTW... has anyone else tried to actually use those crystal holders. I can from time to time .. but for them to be one of the primary drops on Ossus (all of which are BOP I might add) .. they are WAY too big for the small green hooks that they are intended for.

Ossus trading stamps (OK .. I know they are called something else) ... but you know where I'm coming from with that analysis. The number of actual items we can purchase with the trading stamps is kind of pitiful ... actually ! I appreciate the Jedi stuff we can get (light side) .. but that handful of items only works in a few places. I've been maxed out on the currency for so long that there's no telling how many relics ... trading stamps or what ever in the name of common sense they are... They're pretty much useless ! Here was a golden opportunity to help players sink a lot of cash and credits into a SH ... but wasted it ! And I hope that Dantoonie has more available than what I've seen lately !

Sorry... Not trying to be so negative. Let's just say that there is a golden opportunity to make some good choices that will benefit everyone : including BW.

IMO.. with the kind of changes that most of us are asking for, more people will spend more time and money making better use of Strongholds ! and that's a win-win !
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