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[Guide] Tips for Newer GSF Players

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
[Guide] Tips for Newer GSF Players

Danalon's Avatar


Danalon
07.08.2015 , 05:06 PM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by Drakkolich View Post
Magira talked about how Fortress shield is "easier" to use for a newer player. I don't think this is true at all, it might be easier mecanically but teaching yourself to just hold still and tank damage because you have bigger shields is really awful for your learning curve.

When I was new fortress + rotational sounded so good in my head.
I flew only a handful of matches with that setup and my experiences were so bad, I stopped playing gunship altogether.

Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKiko View Post
]...]
The math may not lie, but it wont always tell the full story. Looking at the reality of gameplay, and taking into account that fortress gunships are less mobile you can see how it can be useful. It's likely that the 2v1 will come to them, not the other way around, meaning that the fortress will use its weakness to its own advantage - it will land the first hit, with a higher charge. Most GS pairs run "quarrel/condor" pairs. one for ion assist generation, the other for slug kill and close range support. Quarrel goes first, condor goes second. They don't fire at the same time, they don't begin charge at the same time, they don't die at the same time. Fortress can soak up an ion hit and a slug hit np. Painful asit may be, that is how it was designed.
[...]
That only works if the two attacking gunships are bad. A fortress gunship will lose most fights against one T1 gunship, how is it supposed to win against a T1 gs with a T3 gs as support?

Fortress gunship landing first, more charged hit is unlikely for many reasons.
More charged requires the fortress gs to see the attacker coming. Any attacker will try to do a surprise attack.
It also requires to start charging before the attacker is in range because if it's not precharged then both gunships will have roughly the same state of charge when they fire. If the attacker sees the precharging he simply waits until the fotress gunship has drained itself. Also there most likely are obstacles, where the attacker can hide behind, charge and then strafe into LoS to shoot. And even if the fortress gunship has precharged and then the attacker has still the option to go in anyway, use DF and most likely will not get hit by either the first or the second of the two ion hits required to shut him down (I think chances of landing one rail shot at max range with wingman up against a full evasion T1 gunship with df up is 66% per shot and 44% for two consecutive shots).
The attacker however will hit the fortress gunship almost certainly (90% chance to hit per shot without wingman; 100% with wingman) 2 times in a row (81% chance to land two consecutive shots without wingman) and will shut it down completely. The fortress ship has then two options: doing nothing and hope someone else rescues him from the situation as he will be out of engine and weapons power and fortress shield doesn't soak an infinite number of hits. Or he runs away in time, giving up his only defense.

(Correct me if I made mistakes with the numbers, I looked them up on the dulfy calculator).

Edit:
Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKiko View Post
It worked for him, it works for others, it shouldn't be discarded.
"It works" isn't a good argument - I kann kill by clapping my hands, but it works only against insects. More GSF related: I sometimes fly my T1 gunship without using railguns. That works perfectly well against bad pilots.

But killing bad pilots who are in suboptimal builds themselves should not be the goal when choosing components and upgrades. The goal should be to be as competitive as possible against good pilots in good builds (or maybe you make a build that counters a specific build of the good ones (you only should do that when flying in premades), but those builds are rare and usually the good builds are the best counters to themselves). Whatever setup someone is flying, it may feel good for now but there will be a point where a suboptimal setup will block further improvement.

MiaowZedong's Avatar


MiaowZedong
07.08.2015 , 05:14 PM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by Danalon View Post
When I was new fortress + rotational sounded so good in my head.
I flew only a handful of matches with that setup and my experiences were so bad, I stopped playing gunship altogether.
This is exactly the point that a newbie needs to see. We could write essays about how bad Fortress is but that's besides the point and would only serve to confuse new players.

For Danalon
Spoiler

CommanderKiko's Avatar


CommanderKiko
07.08.2015 , 05:54 PM | #43
Show of hands. Who here actually expects a new pilot to take on seasoned aces and win even if the seasoned ace is using a non-meta build and the new pilot is in a mastered meta GS?

You are equating gear to skill, and in GSF we all know this isn't true. The logic around telling newbs to get into competitive builds in order to fight competitive matches is flawed, and that can be proven by simple hypothetical. Take yourself back when you first started playing. Day one. First match. Then put what you knew then into a mastered type 1 meta build gunship. Then take yourself as you are now, and put yourself in a non-meta ship stock. Then play that fight out in your mind. Just imagine it. How badly would you crush your past self?

The argument you guys are using boils down to this. "What's good for the ace is good for the newb." In other words "what's good for the CEO is good for the consumer." Both sides of the argument haven't stopped and thought "well, maybe people at different skill levels have different needs, and maybe different people learn differently."

All I've been saying is not to discard non-meta builds as not-useful. What works for people works for them. I'm not saying "hey lets encourage people to use **** components." I'm saying to ask yourself why they are using said components, and am telling you that everything has a use - no matter how far out that use may be.

And that is why i will continue arguing that fortress sheild, **** as it may be, is still viable.
GM of Defiant Industries LLC (GSF/PvP)
GM of Defiant Security Services (GSF, new)
- KikÚ, Bastion.

Danalon's Avatar


Danalon
07.08.2015 , 06:10 PM | #44
Requisition is hard to earn as a new player without experience. And spending it on suboptimal components imho is a waste. Also, especially on a component like fortress shield that forces a special playstyle, it may have the side effect that the newer player learns a playstyle he will not be able to use later in competitve matches and has to re-learn another playstyle for the same ship. In my opinion, running away from all kinds of things is one of the most important skills a gunship pilot has to learn; fortress shield is counterproductive to the learning process in this case.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
07.08.2015 , 06:12 PM | #45
Hey drak, remember our conversation last night.....

3 types of people. Ones that like to "win big" . One's that Like to "Win THEIR way with some efficient but less used combination". And ones that like to "win often taking the most efficient way every time regardless of their 'preference'".

Guess which category Fortress shield Rotationals fall under.

http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/mag...om/daily/mr11b

MiaowZedong's Avatar


MiaowZedong
07.08.2015 , 06:29 PM | #46
Posting this for the OP because she can't right now:
Quote: Originally Posted by DakhathKilrathi
I've watched this thread enough today without being able to post. Obviously, I can't reply after this post (and I won't pester anyone else to post for me, honest) but I'm happy to continue the discussion on Enjin, where I'm easy to reach.

Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKiko View Post
Show of hands. Who here actually expects a new pilot to take on seasoned aces and win even if the seasoned ace is using a non-meta build and the new pilot is in a mastered meta GS?
Is anyone actually arguing that this should happen? I haven't seen where this has happened. The entire point of this thread is to help players start with the right tools. It saves time and requisition and doesn't limit their potential in the same way playing with bad components does.

Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKiko View Post
You are equating gear to skill, and in GSF we all know this isn't true. The logic around telling newbs to get into competitive builds in order to fight competitive matches is flawed, and that can be proven by simple hypothetical. Take yourself back when you first started playing. Day one. First match. Then put what you knew then into a mastered type 1 meta build gunship. Then take yourself as you are now, and put yourself in a non-meta ship stock. Then play that fight out in your mind. Just imagine it. How badly would you crush your past self?
Not as badly as I would if I played a good build, and not as badly as I would if "past me" was in a bad build. Players should learn how to use the right components from the beginning. Nothing they learn from Fortress Shield applies to using Distortion Field OR Feedback Shield, and you're suggesting that they should waste time and requisition on learning a component that does not help them. It teaches bad habits.

I'm not trying to suggest that they can't play with components later (though Fortress is never the right choice in my opinion). I'm saying that they should learn how the game is actually played before they do so. Are you honestly trying to suggest that we should teach people to be bad before they can learn to be good?

Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKiko View Post
The argument you guys are using boils down to this. "What's good for the ace is good for the newb." In other words "what's good for the CEO is good for the consumer." Both sides of the argument haven't stopped and thought "well, maybe people at different skill levels have different needs, and maybe different people learn differently."
No. My argument is: players should learn how to use the right components from the beginning. Learning bad components doesn't do them any good, and there are certain things in GSF that are true no matter what skill level is involved. Fortress shield is one of them. That is my entire point. That's the reason this thread exists. My goal is to help new players avoid some very common mistakes. Please stop posting here to suggest that bad components are viable. They aren't.

You're welcome to start your own discussion thread on the matter, but I would very much like for you to stop giving bad advice in this thread.

Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKiko View Post
All I've been saying is not to discard non-meta builds as not-useful. What works for people works for them. I'm not saying "hey lets encourage people to use **** components." I'm saying to ask yourself why they are using said components, and am telling you that everything has a use - no matter how far out that use may be.

And that is why i will continue arguing that fortress sheild, **** as it may be, is still viable.
Good. Post a new thread on the topic and argue the point all you like. I don't agree, but you obviously want to discuss merits of "non-meta" builds. That discussion does not need to happen in this thread. Please take it elsewhere.
Now, replying for myself...
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
Hey drak, remember our conversation last night.....

3 types of people. Ones that like to "win big" . One's that Like to "Win THEIR way with some efficient but less used combination". And ones that like to "win often taking the most efficient way every time regardless of their 'preference'".

Guess which category Fortress shield Rotationals fall under.

http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/mag...om/daily/mr11b
Honestly? It falls under "none of the above". Because, against anyone good, you won't win "your way" with Fortress Shield and Rotationals, you'll just get your face melted. People who want to win their way will make non-meta calls like running CF or Bypass, T1 scout or T3 gunship, but they won't run an entire build's worth of bad decisions.

CommanderKiko's Avatar


CommanderKiko
07.08.2015 , 06:35 PM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by Danalon View Post
Requisition is hard to earn as a new player without experience. And spending it on suboptimal components imho is a waste.
I agree to this, but with dailies and weeklies, new components aren't that challenging to buy or upgrade. Also, the not-shared hangar has the benefit of GSF specific alts.

Quote:
Also, especially on a component like fortress shield that forces a special playstyle, it may have the side effect that the newer player learns a playstyle he will not be able to use later in competitve matches and has to re-learn another playstyle for the same ship. In my opinion, running away from all kinds of things is one of the most important skills a gunship pilot has to learn; fortress shield is counterproductive to the learning process in this case.
Shouldn't every player be alowed to learn their own way, in their own time? Also, shouldn't ever player take the time to learn every viable strategy? I would say only learning one tactic ever (IE running away) is far more counter productive in a team based game than taking the time to learn every viable tactic and how it works with pugs and premades. Although my option may take longer for someone to get to the so-called competitive level, when they got there they would make a name for themselves quickly as a team player. One who can ace most ships and know the strengths and weaknesses of off builds.

At the end of the day, even aces are only human. Humans are unique in very odd ways with weaknesses to be exploited. Some Players (Note: I did not say builds) are weak to non-meta buids. Why? Because they try to emulate top aces and built their meta build around what they expect the best players to use and to do. People panic. Humans make mistakes. The math can't account for that.
GM of Defiant Industries LLC (GSF/PvP)
GM of Defiant Security Services (GSF, new)
- KikÚ, Bastion.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
07.08.2015 , 06:49 PM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by MiaowZedong View Post
Posting this for the OP because she can't right now:

Now, replying for myself...

Honestly? It falls under "none of the above". Because, against anyone good, you won't win "your way" with Fortress Shield and Rotationals, you'll just get your face melted. People who want to win their way will make non-meta calls like running CF or Bypass, T1 scout or T3 gunship, but they won't run an entire build's worth of bad decisions.


Good guess on it being type 2 (Johnny) but that would be incorrect.. Its type 1 (timmy) its the "win big" as you pointed out it doesnt work against good pilots but as the original poster pointed out thanks to the increased weapon power regen and being able to rotate to a pilot instantly it DOES increase the amount of dps you can do to a group of bad pilots thus making the times that you DO win "bigger" wins. Thus appealing to the type 1 personality of those that like to "win big" remember that winning big does not mean winning often only then when wins DO happen they happen "bigger" making the type 1 player (or the "power gamer") happy. In other words it DOES have a type, just not the one you thought I was pointing to.

Armonddd's Avatar


Armonddd
07.08.2015 , 07:38 PM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKiko View Post
A fortress GS is specialized to rarely move, get hit, and not die. Against type 2/3 gunships, the fortress sheild can, has, and will usually win 2v1
Against type 2 and type 3 gunships, a type 1 gunship will win 2v1 with or without fortress shield.

Fortress shield is a "win more" component. It will turn a slight victory into a landslide victory. Unfortunately, that's not very helpful -- a victory is still a victory. It won't turn a loss into a victory, which is really what you want out of your build.

Almost as important, it won't help against anything other than gunships without ion railgun.

Quote:
I'm not debating that it is still "bad," "niche," or "not meta."
Except that's exactly what you're debating -- twice, by the time you made that post.

Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKiko View Post
In short:
DF gunships are very superior in a generalized self sufficient way.
Fortress GS are more specialized to kill other gunships, but are in dire need of good team support.
Seeing as GSF is a team based game either is viable.
(Emphasis added)

And then at the top of the very same post:
Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKiko View Post
You realize im not defending the validity of the component or saying "it is greatest thing since sliced bread and is far superior to DF in every way," no, I'm saying it is viable and has its place.
(Emphasis added)

Honestly, the logic fails and self-contradictions make me disinterested in reading the remainder of your posts. Please stop discussing, in a thread about a concise newbie guide, why newbies should take bad components.
Space Ace of <Death Squadron>, <Black Squadron>, <Eclipse Squadron>, and <solo da>

Armonddd's Avatar


Armonddd
07.08.2015 , 07:44 PM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by MiaowZedong View Post
Now, replying for myself...

Honestly? It falls under "none of the above". Because, against anyone good, you won't win "your way" with Fortress Shield and Rotationals, you'll just get your face melted. People who want to win their way will make non-meta calls like running CF or Bypass, T1 scout or T3 gunship, but they won't run an entire build's worth of bad decisions.
This is literally Spike telling Johnny why Johnny is bad and spike is good.

Re-read the article. It's been a while (and I'm not re-reading it myself tonight, because I'm a nerd and I've already read it 2-3 times), but I distinctly remember MaRo saying somewhere in there that Timmy and Johnny don't care about how much they win. Certainly on his blog, he's explicitly said that they're in it for the experience, not the win. And again, it's the Spike in you adding the caveat of "against anyone good" (Spike is the only of the three that cares about that kind of thing, or, arguably, anything about their opponent).
Space Ace of <Death Squadron>, <Black Squadron>, <Eclipse Squadron>, and <solo da>