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Class Change Feedback in 5.3 and 5.4

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Class Change Feedback in 5.3 and 5.4
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Ottoattack's Avatar


Ottoattack
07.31.2017 , 01:30 PM | #311
Quote: Originally Posted by Khiriath View Post
The ability to put out 9k DPS on a dummy, does not mean you can put out 9k DPS in a boss fight. Take Styrak, you really need to parse 9,2k to be carrying your own weight. That included Kell Dragon spin(where your DPS drops through the floor), target switches, nightmare ect, knock backs and interrupts and all the other mechanics that lower your DPS. Sure a Sorc in 248 can finally put out the necessary DPS on a dummy. But they don't stand a chance in a fight where the inescapable mechanics lower their DPS significantly.
Absolutely, I cannot even put 6K dps in PvP with carnage .

Jokes aside, the problem is HM is supposed to be doable in 230 and NiM in 236. Sorc dps (amoung many others) does not even stand a chance with that level of gear. 5.3 was supposed to be for buffing under performing disciplines, since the upper performing disciplines seamed well tuned for the content difficulty. The exact opposite happened.

As a PvPer the problems are far more entangled and a 3-5% dps/hps buff or nerf does not do anything in that releam.

Khiriath's Avatar


Khiriath
07.31.2017 , 02:00 PM | #312
Quote: Originally Posted by Ottoattack View Post
Absolutely, I cannot even put 6K dps in PvP with carnage .

Jokes aside, the problem is HM is supposed to be doable in 230 and NiM in 236. Sorc dps (amoung many others) does not even stand a chance with that level of gear. 5.3 was supposed to be for buffing under performing disciplines, since the upper performing disciplines seamed well tuned for the content difficulty. The exact opposite happened.

As a PvPer the problems are far more entangled and a 3-5% dps/hps buff or nerf does not do anything in that releam.
Yeah, but no class could pass Styrak in 236 gear. Not just sorcs, none. Here are the numbers for 240 gear.
Quote: Originally Posted by Goblin_Lackey View Post
Iokath MK-3, Tier 3: Artifact (240 ilvl)

DPS Ranking:
Spoiler
Please note that the highest parsing class is on average well below the threshold for being able to pass NiM Styrak when you factor in the mechanics of just the Kell Dragon spin. PvE balancing in 5.X has just been an absolute mess, and they are only making it worse. I really wish the Devs would answer this.

Either they have to buff the classes, or nerf the ops bosses. Personally I believe that every class should be viable, with mechanics factored in, for all content at the recommended gear level. However, what we have is that no class can put out sufficient dmg to clear all content at recommended gear rating. If that problem is sorted, personally I don't care about 10% spread or whatever. They want 10% spread, fine, so long as the lowest DPSing class can still, mehanics included, clear the content at recommended gear rating.

Then we can talk about PvP balance, which is admittedly a mess, but we cannot continue to break one for the sake of the other.
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RagnarAugustus's Avatar


RagnarAugustus
07.31.2017 , 02:15 PM | #313
Quote: Originally Posted by Ottoattack View Post
Absolutely, I cannot even put 6K dps in PvP with carnage .

Jokes aside, the problem is HM is supposed to be doable in 230 and NiM in 236. Sorc dps (amoung many others) does not even stand a chance with that level of gear. 5.3 was supposed to be for buffing under performing disciplines, since the upper performing disciplines seamed well tuned for the content difficulty. The exact opposite happened.

As a PvPer the problems are far more entangled and a 3-5% dps/hps buff or nerf does not do anything in that releam.
No the minimum gear recommendations for Ops are SM 230 gear (despite being bolstered), HM 236, Ni 242. But on the dummy vs reality arguments I see a lot of people agreeing that dummy parses don't really show anything other than dummy parse data since it's not applicable to either Ops or PVP where real world factors come into play.

They really need to balance PVP and PVE completely separately. In fact I'd like to see a PVP ability tree that shows up and are the only abilities usable in PVP so they can be buffed\nerfed solely in response to how they do in PVP so PVE isn't affected when they are changed.

Ottoattack's Avatar


Ottoattack
07.31.2017 , 02:26 PM | #314
Quote: Originally Posted by Khiriath View Post
Then we can talk about PvP balance, which is admittedly a mess, but we cannot continue to break one for the sake of the other.
TBH, we do not need to break anything in PvP or PvE so it would be fixed in the other side. And with the exception of sorc nerfs (which were not done correctly) the changes in 5.3 were PvE based and missed the mark with the exception of pyro PT (even hatred changes are questionable at best).

If BW just nerfed the survivability of snipers and merc to a decent level, everyone in PvP would have been happy. But no.. they had to adjust crap that no one asked for and makes no sense and piss off everyone. Take merc player base, completely disgruntled at that changes, and yet everyone in PvP is still disgruntled at merc suvivability. Changes were done so that merc meet some hypothetical damage bracket, which has no connection to reality.

Khiriath's Avatar


Khiriath
07.31.2017 , 02:32 PM | #315
Quote: Originally Posted by RagnarAugustus View Post
No the minimum gear recommendations for Ops are SM 230 gear (despite being bolstered), HM 236, Ni 242. But on the dummy vs reality arguments I see a lot of people agreeing that dummy parses don't really show anything other than dummy parse data since it's not applicable to either Ops or PVP where real world factors come into play.

They really need to balance PVP and PVE completely separately. In fact I'd like to see a PVP ability tree that shows up and are the only abilities usable in PVP so they can be buffed\nerfed solely in response to how they do in PVP so PVE isn't affected when they are changed.
That makes no sense.
When 5.0 dropped up until 5.2 SM dropped 230, HM 236 and NiM 242. Typically the ops dropped a tier above what was needed to clear them.
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light_senshi's Avatar


light_senshi
07.31.2017 , 03:20 PM | #316
I've been watching as Sorcerer gets the nerf-bat, the nerf-bat, and the nerf-bat. Since that's my main, I haven't done flashpoints since probably 4.0...and I won't until lightning sorcerer is somewhat viable again.

Icykill_'s Avatar


Icykill_
07.31.2017 , 08:10 PM | #317
Quote: Originally Posted by light_senshi View Post
I've been watching as Sorcerer gets the nerf-bat, the nerf-bat, and the nerf-bat. Since that's my main, I haven't done flashpoints since probably 4.0...and I won't until lightning sorcerer is somewhat viable again.
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WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
08.01.2017 , 01:52 AM | #318
Quote: Originally Posted by Ottoattack View Post
TBH, we do not need to break anything in PvP or PvE so it would be fixed in the other side. And with the exception of sorc nerfs (which were not done correctly) the changes in 5.3 were PvE based and missed the mark with the exception of pyro PT (even hatred changes are questionable at best).

If BW just nerfed the survivability of snipers and merc to a decent level, everyone in PvP would have been happy. But no.. they had to adjust crap that no one asked for and makes no sense and piss off everyone. Take merc player base, completely disgruntled at that changes, and yet everyone in PvP is still disgruntled at merc suvivability. Changes were done so that merc meet some hypothetical damage bracket, which has no connection to reality.
They don''t care about any of that. They have come right and said it is not the combat teams job to ensure every spec can meet the DPS checks for all content.

That alone tells you where they are at and what the prospects for future class balance are really like.

Just look at the "road map" they've laid out for class balance. It literally ensures that class balance cannot be achieved or within a reasonable proximity of class balance [actually perfect class balance will never happen, best you can hope for is to get it as close to that idea as is reasonably possible].

Your throwing massively disseperate specs into general cateogories [i.e. Carnage and Madness sorc], that are literally alien to each other. Its put specs in clearly wrong cateogories [Carnage is the psudo-burst spec, not Fury, and the same for Engineering], you have ranged specs in the same cateogory as melee specs, sustained specs in the same cateogory as burst specs, you have stealth classes in the same cateogory as pure DPS specs, I mean, where is the logic behind that?

How do addess class balance and DPS ranking without taking into account a slew of other factors that clearly come into play and effect DPS.

Self heals don't effect DPS? Defensives don't effect DPS? Mobility and attack range don't affect DPS?
Perma stealth, off healing, off tanking they don't effect the potential of sucessful clears? Dirty Rez, Sorc pulls, role switching, group utility and support, these don't effect DPS or the chances of a sucessful clear?

CC kits and immunities have no baring on PVP? Stealh capping, can't affect outcomes?

The capacity for self sustainability shouldn't be a consideration in determining DPS rankings? A DPS spec with the healing potential merc DPS have as opposed to what Assassins and Marauders have should not have any baring on DPS? If class X has self heals and Class Y doesn't and they put out the same DPS, that's not an imbalance? That doesn't make one more desirable than the other?

Operation groups asking for rDPS aren't taking into consideration the fact that ranged DPS are less prone to take damage than melee and less effected by certain raid mechanics? If thats the case than why don't ranged DPS stand where the melee do? Not like they can't DPS just as well up close than far away. We know why they stand so far away, it's safer, and there is less chance of being effected by raid mechanics to the same degree as melee. If that's not so, than there is no reason for ranged DPS to not stand where melee do.

So many factors effect things. So many abilities, utilities, passives, all the different things that make the specs what they are. If you do not take all of things into account to some degree, if you use only a arbitraty cateogory with specs that are totally dissimilar to each other and what kind of DPS they can do on a dummy, there is zero chance for class balance.

We saw how successful 5.3 was, how happy it made players, how much it changed the balance issues for the better right? [Saracam], and we'll see it in 5.4 when they maul some more specs that don't deserve it.

Putting aside the disgust players will have when they find that after all of that grinding, all the rng bs for gearing, all the time and effort that was put into gearing, that they're dps output is lower than it was when they were still in 224 gear, you will also find, I believe that the class balance is actually worse than it was before it started.

I don't doubt there intentions are good, but their chosen strategy,[ from a realistic point view, with a mind to how things actually playout in live combat] is simply flawed.

Gutting specs whether they were considered over performing or not, and in ways that had nothing to do with how those that were over performing were manifesting that, can only cause discontent and disillusionment from the player base. I can't imagine how many players this game is going to lose over this, and I may be one of them come 5.4.

How many times are they going to ignore the common sense that any class balance changes must incorporate in their methodology?

Just when you think it can't get worse, you can count on BW to make it worse. I have no faith in there class balance strategy. Everyone loses pretty much or gains so little it's barely worth mentioning, and fairness is no where to be seen.

rlionherz's Avatar


rlionherz
08.01.2017 , 01:41 PM | #319
so u took the interrupt caping from snipers AOE but most other classes still can ......

skank this, skank that, dwt are the new hybrids.......anyone remember that one particular nerf back in the days of "freedom of choice" abilities
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Icykill_'s Avatar


Icykill_
08.01.2017 , 03:52 PM | #320
Quote: Originally Posted by Ottoattack View Post
There is no "team." In all likelihood it is done by Charles among several other things he does. The reason it only address damage/heal output, cuz it is the only thing you can measure without doing any monitoring. So:

Part time dev, check
No monitoring, check
BW does not give a crap, check

This is how class balance is done in a nut shell.
Have you guys watched the credits at the end of Kotet? There are a heap of people working on the game.

So, who are the combat team guys?

Are they in the Development Systems Group?
Are they in the Design Group?
Are they in the Engineers Group? (My guess is it's these guys)

Anyway... here is a Copy of the screen credits and you guys can see the whole team and guess who you think they are.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u28dz97hguM
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