Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Class Change Feedback in 5.3 and 5.4

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Class Change Feedback in 5.3 and 5.4
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

EricMusco's Avatar


EricMusco
07.07.2017 , 03:18 PM | #1 This is the last staff post in this thread.  
Hey folks,

One of the topics we have seen come up a bit in the past couple of weeks is all of your feedback regarding Class changes and what is happening with it. We understand we have not kept you updated on the threads where we posted the Class changes so we want to talk through what happens next and how we will use your feedback.

For a multitude of reasons, Class balance is one of the most challenging communication topics. We dislike having to nerf a Class as much as you do, but sometimes we have to do it for the overall health of our game (as we talked about in our "How Class Balance Happens” thread). We understand that no one ever likes to see the effectiveness of their Class reduced. It can change the way you play, take enjoyment out of playing that Class, and make you feel slighted if you believe the changes happened because of another type of gameplay (PvE or PvP) which you don't even participate in. We are very sensitive to all of these things.

We knew Class changes were a top priority, so we provided insight about how we intended to balance all Classes ahead of next week’s patch. Since we took so long to make changes after the release of KOTET (5.0), we had quite a few big changes to make, and that’s what you’ve been reading the last few weeks. It is going to be rough for some Disciplines as they are way over target, but it is important that we bring them in line. Additionally, we may have missed the mark with some of the changes and if we went too far or not far enough, you can expect to see additional adjustments in the future. Going forward, it is our intent to stay on top of Class balance so changes will be less severe/sweeping than they are in 5.3 and the upcoming 5.4 patch in August.

Let's get a little more specific! The following list is not comprehensive, but here is some of the key feedback we have read coming out of the Class change posts:
  • Arsenal/Gunnery needed survivability/utility nerfs, not DPS - As we said in the balance thread, we want to get damage targets in line first before we touch too much utility. They did get a slight nerf to survivability in 5.3, and we will monitor both their damage and ability to stay alive going forward.
  • Corruption/Seer nerfs went too far and may also negatively impact DPS - Admittedly those two Disciplines were substantially overperforming and will receive the most significant nerfs in 5.3. But, we will watch their performance closely and make changes if we’ve gone too far. The same is true of the impact on "Sorc/Sage bubble" for DPS. We’ll change it or give them other defensive options to compensate if needed.
  • Madness/Balance buffs are nice but they are still Force negative! - Beyond the changes already listed, they are receiving a buff to their Force regeneration to no longer be rotationally negative. We have doubled the effect of Sith Efficacy / Psychic Barrier so that each channel of Force Lightning / Telekinetic Throw will restore 8% of total Force (minus the cost). To be clear, that’s a net of +3 per tick of damage or +12 total Force per channel, not including the ongoing passive Force regeneration that also occurs during the channel.

When we start talking about 5.4 changes, we will work to do better in keeping the conversation alive around Class balance. This way we can make sure everyone has a clear understanding of all concerns/feedback going into the update.

Thanks everyone!

-eric
Eric Musco | Community Manager
Follow us on Twitter @SWTOR | Like us on Facebook
[Contact Us] [Rules of Conduct] [F.A.Q.]

dscount's Avatar


dscount
07.07.2017 , 03:46 PM | #2
Thanks for the update Eric

I don't think people are upset about nerfs (MMO's have to do it), but more about CXP tied to them.

It's more significant as people did the grind on mains with CXP and now effectively have nerfed to death mains. In the past it wasn't a big deal, but with CXP Grind being character specific it's a lot more impact to players. All MMO's make nerfs, but you guys forcing folks into the CXP model makes it more annoying.

I'm a SORC Heals that has been playing since founder and this nerf to me is basically a "Go roll FOTM Healer". I've seen you nerf us before, but nothing like this. Your approach due to CXP should have been "BUFF" the other healers (Which I think are not that far behind our class).

Added: You are saying you will watch things and adjust, but I ask HOW LONG will it take? In the past you have made the same promise and we don't see things improve for 6-10 months. This is also a reason why your team has a very bad rap for OVER doing things and not quickly correcting it once it fails (As I suspect this wide of swing will fail). I'd like to see you and Keith commit to correcting before 5.4 drops any major issues with this nerf bat swing.
Reference Link: Why not? http://www.swtor.com/r/FDltnT
WTB Legacy Bound Ear, Implants, Relics

azamba's Avatar


azamba
07.07.2017 , 03:51 PM | #3
Ok, we got all that before, I think. Thanks for explaining in detail.

My complaint here is, What about the other classes that are not receiving a much deserved NERF in 5.3, like Mara (at least carnage), Operative (at least lethality) and Assassin Deception, for instance, all of them are way above their DPS Target (lethality reach 10% above dps target where it should be "only" 5%) and gonna stay that way in 5.3, doing much more dps than everyone else now. One would think they should also be priority since are doing, like all the others that will be nerfed, above their dps target.
Does that seems fair to you? Why aren't they receiving a nerf in 5.3 too? And more importantly, WHEN will these classes/builds see this nerf?
Coincidentally, they are all MDPS...
Chabokku - Merc IO
Mulliss - Marauder
Pyrosweep - PT
<Entity>

Phospha's Avatar


Phospha
07.07.2017 , 03:55 PM | #4
bleh.

teclado's Avatar


teclado
07.07.2017 , 04:04 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by dscount View Post
Your approach due to CXP should have been "BUFF" the other healers (Which I think are not that far behind our class).
This has been addressed, see here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...31#edit9337631

Thanks Mr. Musco. I'm glad to hear that changes will be more frequent and less sweeping.

Maybe if it were possible to transfer Command Rank from one character to another, people would be less upset? That would encourage FotM chasing, but you could make it cost a boatload of credits or CC. Regarding the upcoming state of healers (pending Sorc/Sage heal nerf), I'd argue that there will be no FotM because their healing output is now going to be pretty well balanced. Maybe Merc/Mando due to their defensives.

P.S. Legacy UC pretty please? I got my Marauder to CR 300 and have a bunch of 242 shells needed to trade in to get 248, but now I'm starting over again on my Sentinel (imp friends moved on from the game, pub friends coming back). I can get the 242 gear to my Sentinel, but there is no way for me to upgrade that 242 to 248 since my Mara has the shells. I'd have to play my Marauder in PvP. If we had legacy UC, I could play my Sentinel, collect UC, purchase upgrades on my Mara, and legacy gear over the mods to my Sentinel. Or just allow me to legacy transfer the shells? That might get messy, though...not sure you would want to make those pieces legacy bound.

Thanks!
SS
Malovo - Marauder

dscount's Avatar


dscount
07.07.2017 , 04:08 PM | #6
Sorry, but this approach of "Suck it up buttercup" falls inline with a previous parody when dev team told us to "Heal to Full and make them pay" in PVP.

Just Heal to Full (a SWTOR parody of James Blunt's "You're Beautiful")
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbQgvvFLawM

My apologies Eric and Keith. You guys are being great at communications in general, but you really keep dropping the ball big time on "Feedback" about class changes. Couple of those have been up for a few weeks and ZERO responses. Please extend your new communications model into ALL conversations of huge impact to the community.
Reference Link: Why not? http://www.swtor.com/r/FDltnT
WTB Legacy Bound Ear, Implants, Relics

AshlaBoga's Avatar


AshlaBoga
07.07.2017 , 04:09 PM | #7
There's a difference between EHPS and burst healing. Sure a sorc might have had slightly higher EHPS than intended, but their burst healing was weaker than the other 2 classes. With the new nerfs, stuff like the NiM Raptus healing challenge will encourage people to leave their sorcs and bring a merc instead.
The dark is generous, and it is patient, and it always wins.
It always wins because it is everywhere.
The brightest light casts the darkest shadow.
Click my Referral Code for free goodies!

omaan's Avatar


omaan
07.07.2017 , 04:16 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Hey folks,

One of the topics we have seen come up a bit in the past couple of weeks is all of your feedback regarding Class changes and what is happening with it. We understand we have not kept you updated on the threads where we posted the Class changes so we want to talk through what happens next and how we will use your feedback.

For a multitude of reasons, Class balance is one of the most challenging communication topics. We dislike having to nerf a Class as much as you do, but sometimes we have to do it for the overall health of our game (as we talked about in our "How Class Balance Happens” thread). We understand that no one ever likes to see the effectiveness of their Class reduced. It can change the way you play, take enjoyment out of playing that Class, and make you feel slighted if you believe the changes happened because of another type of gameplay (PvE or PvP) which you don't even participate in. We are very sensitive to all of these things.

We knew Class changes were a top priority, so we provided insight about how we intended to balance all Classes ahead of next week’s patch. Since we took so long to make changes after the release of KOTET (5.0), we had quite a few big changes to make, and that’s what you’ve been reading the last few weeks. It is going to be rough for some Disciplines as they are way over target, but it is important that we bring them in line. Additionally, we may have missed the mark with some of the changes and if we went too far or not far enough, you can expect to see additional adjustments in the future. Going forward, it is our intent to stay on top of Class balance so changes will be less severe/sweeping than they are in 5.3 and the upcoming 5.4 patch in August.

Let's get a little more specific! The following list is not comprehensive, but here is some of the key feedback we have read coming out of the Class change posts:
  • Arsenal/Gunnery needed survivability/utility nerfs, not DPS - As we said in the balance thread, we want to get damage targets in line first before we touch too much utility. They did get a slight nerf to survivability in 5.3, and we will monitor both their damage and ability to stay alive going forward.
  • Corruption/Seer nerfs went too far and may also negatively impact DPS - Admittedly those two Disciplines were substantially overperforming and will receive the most significant nerfs in 5.3. But, we will watch their performance closely and make changes if we’ve gone too far. The same is true of the impact on "Sorc/Sage bubble" for DPS. We’ll change it or give them other defensive options to compensate if needed.
  • Madness/Balance buffs are nice but they are still Force negative! - Beyond the changes already listed, they are receiving a buff to their Force regeneration to no longer be rotationally negative. We have doubled the effect of Sith Efficacy / Psychic Barrier so that each channel of Force Lightning / Telekinetic Throw will restore 8% of total Force (minus the cost). To be clear, that’s a net of +3 per tick of damage or +12 total Force per channel, not including the ongoing passive Force regeneration that also occurs during the channel.

When we start talking about 5.4 changes, we will work to do better in keeping the conversation alive around Class balance. This way we can make sure everyone has a clear understanding of all concerns/feedback going into the update.

Thanks everyone!

-eric
Just don't make from dps sorc a new fotm lol. This game wont survive another fotm.

Gramm's Avatar


Gramm
07.07.2017 , 04:22 PM | #9
Thank you for addressing the force negative rotation of madness.

My only issue with the buffs to their dmg is that the dots are now relying heavily on a broken mechanic with death marks I propose remove the 5% buff from that passive and throw it in Force Horrors (Buff to 15%) (Up from 10%) It will make the same difference but make it less of a chance for another hatred/sorc to take your damage.

Until you can fix the issue with Death Mark I would also recommend changing the passive or fixing the issue asap as it is frustrating that potentially another sorc/sin is taking my dmg buff away from me.

P.S. I want some good DCDs in 5.4. I hate doing everything in my power to survive and still dying to some random average player.

Might not be the place as well but may I suggest the two dps specs for sorcs get a passive that increases the cooldown of static barrier but increases the dmg absorbed 2x the original, some real dedicated DCD would be great. (Just an Idea/suggestion)
Zanios - 70 sorc

Dacri's Avatar


Dacri
07.07.2017 , 04:32 PM | #10
buff madness dps, the force management is retarded too but that is just if you spam heal to full dark heal.


DPS sorcs need a buff asap, can not compete with any other class at all, like pretty much everything counters you and if we will be so easy to kill, at least make us be able to make them pay if they let us live lol
I was #1 Sage in Season 4, 5 & 6 (at least the legit one in 6 lel).
Apex, The Dread Sage Dacri, Champion of the Sages.
The original Killsyou, the rest are my apprentices.
My stream if I ever feel like it
My Sadness Sorcerer PVP Guide!