you are comparing 1 class skill set against another class skill set sorry if 1v1 came across as pvp fighting 1v1 I meant the above.

And in what situation is this Operative skill set better than the Sorcerer skill set?

You can use it every 10 seconds for no debuff. You have a talent tree that gives you no cost consumption.

 

You might wanna get your facts right first. We get a talent that when we cast innervate and it crits we get a no health cost consuption.

yes it is nice, but it requires to cast an ability that uses force first, requires it to crit and then to use a global cooldown.

Seriously you are reaching far to justify this whine.

BW knows for certain why they made it the way they did, Ill assume it has to do with regen mechanics which makes logical sense.

And in what situation is this Operative skill set better than the Sorcerer skill set?

Am not saying it is better they are just different they are never going to be the same they are different classes that is the whole idea they both should fit a certain niche.

You could maybe say as an operative wears medium armour they have the upper hand due to more mitigation.

As I said they are two different things and should not be comparable they should do similar out put not the same and as I stated before BW are aware that the operative healing is lacking a bit and it will receive a buff very soon.

You might wanna get your facts right first. We get a talent that when we cast innervate and it crits we get a no health cost consuption.

 

yes it is nice, but it requires to cast an ability that uses force first, requires it to crit and then to use a global cooldown.

 

Seriously you are reaching far to justify this whine.

 

BW knows for certain why they made it the way they did, Ill assume it has to do with regen mechanics which makes logical sense.

No; You do not know what you are talking about.

Yes if Innervate crits. Either the initial heal or one of the three hot ticks.

At 33% crit chance that is a probability of getting the effect after casting Innervate = .33+.33+.33+.33 = 1.32; That's over 100% chance of getting the effect.

Operative healers get their "balanced" ability.

It's in the tier three Lethality tree. +10 Energy on Stim Boost cast.

Stim Boost requires Tactical Advantage. TA is granted from a 30% chance tick from Kolto Probe (if we spend 3 talent points in it), or from Kolto Injection (if we spend 2 talent points).

SO:

To get +10 energy from Stim Boost which costs TA and to Maximize TA acquisition which is essential for an operative. We have to spend.

3 + 2 + 11 = 16 Talent Points. We can get that + 10 energy every 20 seconds.

You, can get a free (no health cost of Consumption) if you are a healer and spend 2 points. Your chance of getting that Force Surge for each 9s cast of Innervate is 132% if you have a crit chance of 33%.

Why do you try and defend bioware's obvious forced dis-balance of the game in the favor of their most played class.

Kolto Injection (KI) costs 25 energy.

At 5 Energy regen per sec it takes 5 seconds to accumulate the energy to cast KI.

At 4 Energy regen per sec it takes 6.25 seconds to accumulate the energy to cast KI.

At 3 Energy regen per sec it takes 8.33 seconds to accumulate the energy to cast KI.

At 2.5 Energy regen per sec it takes 10 seconds to accumulate the energy to cast KI.

At 2 Energy regen per sec it takes 12.5 seconds to accumulate the energy to cast KI.

Dark Infusion (DI) costs 55 force. (Before the talents to decrease it's cost).

At 8 Force regen per sec it takes 6.875 seconds to accumulate the force to cast DI.

At 8 Force regen per sec it takes 6.875 seconds to accumulate the force to cast DI.

At 8 Force regen per sec it takes 6.875 seconds to accumulate the force to cast DI.

At 8 Force regen per sec it takes 6.875 seconds to accumulate the force to cast DI.

At 8 Force regen per sec it takes 6.875 seconds to accumulate the force to cast DI.

 

Why do you try and defend bioware's obvious forced dis-balance of the game in the favor of their most played class.

The classes were designed before the game launched and they were surprised by the number of people who rolled sorcerers/sages. How could they therefore deliberately design the sorc to be better than the op if they didn't know which would be most popular? And if so, why did they openly state they are nerfing sorc heals and boosting op's?

The classes were designed before the game launched and they were surprised by the number of people who rolled sorcerers/sages. How could they therefore deliberately design the sorc to be better than the op if they didn't know which would be most popular? And if so, why did they openly state they are nerfing sorc heals and boosting op's?

They had countless metrics to gauge what classes people were planning on playing before launch.

Just because it was unbalanced doesn't change the fact that.

A. They have yet to give Sorcerer any kind of a nerf.

B. They took a sledge hammer to Concealment Operative rendering them completely subpar in PVE, forcing just about every main Operative to go with the massively subpar healer spec.

You dont take regeneration rates into account, either.

Operatives, without stim boost, recover 5% of their resource pool per second. With stim boost, it's 6% per second.

Sorcerors only recover 1% or less of their resource pool per second.

It is because of the re-gen mechanics there is a difference in amount of force/energy that is given

 

operative re-gen

 

0-20: a regen rate of 2 energy per second

20-60: regen rate of 3 energy per second

60-100: regen rate of 5 energy per second

 

Inquisitor re-gen

8/s

 

which takes a hell of a long time to get to 50 compared to you getting 5 every second

ssshhhhhhh... if you logic too loud the trolls will find and eat you...

Ojas, to point out the obvious, different classes are different.

You are talking about resource pools without really considering that Operative, with proper resource management has a much faster resource regen than sages/sorcerers.

Operatives recover a lot faster from having to spam abilities than sorcs/sages can. This means that long term operatives have a much better time in longer fights.

They have different design principles and strengths. You can compare 1 aspect of a class to just 1 aspect of another. You forget Operatives have better crits, stealth, a faster recovery time from burst scenarios etc.

Also you have 2 almost identical threads about what you believe are disparities in the classes. You are unlikely to be taken seriously about it on these boards since you are only looking through a narrow lens.

If sage/sorc ends up in a better position in most healing scenarios then I am sure they will be nerfed or merc/op will be buffed but without a much better analysis, including burst healing vs sustained healing versus HPS and recovery scenarios you really aren't making much of an argument.

For the record I am not saying that operatives might be worse off than sages/sorcs. I am saying you have not presented enough information and empirical evidence to make the claims that you are and expect them to be given credit.

Ojas, to point out the obvious, different classes are different.

 

You are talking about resource pools without really considering that Operative, with proper resource management has a much faster resource regen than sages/sorcerers.

 

Operatives recover a lot faster from having to spam abilities than sorcs/sages can. This means that long term operatives have a much better time in longer fights.

 

They have different design principles and strengths. You can compare 1 aspect of a class to just 1 aspect of another. You forget Operatives have better crits, stealth, a faster recovery time from burst scenarios etc.

 

Also you have 2 almost identical threads about what you believe are disparities in the classes. You are unlikely to be taken seriously about it on these boards since you are only looking through a narrow lens.

 

If sage/sorc ends up in a better position in most healing scenarios then I am sure they will be nerfed or merc/op will be buffed but without a much better analysis, including burst healing vs sustained healing versus HPS and recovery scenarios you really aren't making much of an argument.

 

For the record I am not saying that operatives might be worse off than sages/sorcs. I am saying you have not presented enough information and empirical evidence to make the claims that you are and expect them to be given credit.

That much faster resource regen is meaningless when sorcerers get a instant cast instant cooldown free cast ability every 9 seconds 48 force regen ability.

And resource pool doesn't matter when you take into account the following FACTS;

Operatives max regen rate is 20% of the energy required to use their main heal (Kolto Injection).

Sorcerer fixed regen rate is 14.5% of the force required to use their main heal (Dark Infusion).

Is that 6.5% additional energy regened compared to sorcerer (1.3 energy) really worth the fact that we have abilities that cost 25% of our max pool, compared to sorcerers 9.1% cost.

Is the ability to cast your main heal 12 times with your base pool really a good balance to being able to cast your main heal 4 times with your base pool given that player that can only cast his heal 4 times CAN regen the energy required to cast the ability 1.25 seconds faster IF he stays at max regen rate.

No it is not.

That is also coupled with the SIMPLE FACT that the sorcerer ability is balanced to cast longer and heal for more. Essentially the better type of resource management system. While our ability heals for less and casts faster.

This make no sense.

You can sit there and try and it off for what you think the system should be. But the fact is, this system does not.

Kolto Injection (KI) costs 25 energy.

At 5 Energy regen per sec it takes 5 seconds to accumulate the energy to cast KI.

At 4 Energy regen per sec it takes 6.25 seconds to accumulate the energy to cast KI.

At 3 Energy regen per sec it takes 8.33 seconds to accumulate the energy to cast KI.

At 2.5 Energy regen per sec it takes 10 seconds to accumulate the energy to cast KI.

At 2 Energy regen per sec it takes 12.5 seconds to accumulate the energy to cast KI.

Dark Infusion (DI) costs 55 force. (Before the talents to decrease it's cost).

At 8 Force regen per sec it takes 6.875 seconds to accumulate the force to cast DI.

At 8 Force regen per sec it takes 6.875 seconds to accumulate the force to cast DI.

At 8 Force regen per sec it takes 6.875 seconds to accumulate the force to cast DI.

At 8 Force regen per sec it takes 6.875 seconds to accumulate the force to cast DI.

At 8 Force regen per sec it takes 6.875 seconds to accumulate the force to cast DI.

LOOK;

IF THE OPERATIVE FALLS BELOW 40 Energy, the Sorcerer fixed regen is BETTER.

Why should an operative have to put up with that significantly smaller resource pool, weaker heals, and much more complicated regen system to have the ability to regen the energy to cast their man heal 1.5 seconds faster than the fixed Sorcerer regen. And that 1.5 seconds ONLY if that operative stays about 40 energy.

1.5 seconds IF the operative stays above 40 energy is balanced by 500 additional resource pool for an additional 9 casts of the main heal.

That is not even including the fact that, Sorcerers dark infusion heals on 3 second cast. It heals for 2763-2907 in full champ/bm gear.

Operative Kolto Injection heals on a 2 second cast. So that additional 1.5s is actually already there for the sorcerer. SO the Sorcerer already regens better. plus they have a higher pool. Plus they don't have to worry about the chance of losing their average regen if they cast more than 2 heals. Plus they have *********** consumption.

That much faster resource regen is meaningless when sorcerers get a instant cast instant cooldown free cast ability every 9 seconds 48 force regen ability.

Again, you need to look at classes as a whole not cherry pick abilities. You point out what you consider 1 classes strengths are where another class might be weak. If you want to be taken seriously then you need to run the numbers in different healing scenarios. Might be that the instant cooldown free cast ability is not the godsend in many of the situations you think it is.

My suggestion is go experiement with both classes in various scenarios (burst, sustained, clutch, pvp, high mobility etc) and if possible film it, add commentary on where one performs better. Do the maths behind real situations (not optimal spreadsheet ones) and then post with informed critque of the classes.

I could point at 1 ability that operatives get that I think was awesome and better than a similar version of what a sorc gets, or doesn't get and as far as a developer was concerned my comment would be as valid and as researched as yours, which is to say I wouldn't waste my time with it.

I am trying to help you understand that you need to provide real empirical evidence rather than anecdotal evidence or just stating that X ability appears amazing.

The only thing I can conclusively and objectively take from your posts is that you think sages are superior and the set bonus on their set is better than the operative one. You have provided maths for regen rates and percentages but that really means nothing without a contextual back drop or a scenario in how the sage and their set bonus and pool/regen mechanic is better in every way or situation.

LOOK;

IF THE OPERATIVE FALLS BELOW 40 Energy, the Sorcerer fixed regen is BETTER.

 

Why should an operative have to put up with that significantly smaller resource pool, weaker heals, and much more complicated regen system to have the ability to regen the energy to cast their man heal 1.5 seconds faster than the fixed Sorcerer regen. And that 1.5 seconds ONLY if that operative stays about 40 energy.

 

1.5 seconds IF the operative stays above 40 energy is balanced by 500 additional resource pool for an additional 9 casts of the main heal.

 

.

You seem to take the Sage's regen into account while cast but not the Op's. In actual fact Op's won't fall to below 40% with the number of casts you imply. It is much easier for the Op to stay at high energy that it is for the sage to. Also means the Op regens to full energy in much less time that the sage can do the same.

I am not saying there is not a disparity or even that there is. I am saying go do real empirical testing in a number of scenarios. You are looking through too narrow a lens and to make a valid point on class imbalance.

You need to consider all the tools a class has, their optimal rotations in different healing scenarios not just compare two abilities and regen rates. That is no way to balance classes or comment on class balance. That is like saying a sports car is better than a land Cruiser because it travels faster on a race track. It does not adequately compare the two vehicles at all.

I am trying to make you see why your current argument fails to have real merit to developers and thus won't achieve the outcomes you want.

Again, you need to look at classes as a whole not cherry pick abilities. You point out what you consider 1 classes strengths are where another class might be weak. If you want to be taken seriously then you need to run the numbers in different healing scenarios. Might be that the instant cooldown free cast ability is not the godsend in many of the situations you think it is.

 

My suggestion is go experiement with both classes in various scenarios (burst, sustained, clutch, pvp, high mobility etc) and if possible film it, add commentary on where one performs better. Do the maths behind real situations (not optimal spreadsheet ones) and then post with informed critque of the classes.

 

I could point at 1 ability that operatives get that I think was awesome and better than a similar version of what a sorc gets, or doesn't get and as far as a developer was concerned my comment would be as valid and as researched as yours, which is to say I wouldn't waste my time with it.

 

I am trying to help you understand that you need to provide real empirical evidence rather than anecdotal evidence or just stating that X ability appears amazing.

 

The only thing I can conclusively and objectively take from your posts is that you think sages are superior and the set bonus on their set is better than the operative one. You have provided maths for regen rates and percentages but that really means nothing without a contextual back drop or a scenario in how the sage and their set bonus and pool/regen mechanic is better in every way or situation.

What factor makes operative viable. What makes them balanced?

1.5s faster regen than sorcerer if they stay about 40 energy. Significantly lower regen if they fall below 40 energy.

I guess a question I have is, if the force pool and all sorc abilities were reduced in cost by 80% and regen was modeled the same as an operative, how many would think this is a nerf?

I pick 80% because that would would take 500 Force down to 100.

I guess a question I have is, if the force pool and all sorc abilities were reduced in cost by 80% and regen was modeled the same as an operative, how many would think this is a nerf?

 

I pick 80% because that would would take 500 Force down to 100.

Not sure what you mean. I would like to see sorcerers force regen dropped to 1/s fixed but their pool left alone.

Right now, they have no force issues. Unlike operatives who have to focus their ENTIRE play style around energy.

Not sure what you mean. I would like to see sorcerers force regen dropped to 1/s fixed but their pool left alone.

 

Right now, they have no force issues. Unlike operatives who have to focus their ENTIRE play style around energy.

You realize that at a 1 force per second regeneration rate, it would take 10 minutes to regenerate from zero force to full? You also realize that sorcerors do not have a 1-2 minute cooldown ability that essentially puts them back at full resource level, like all of the other classes do?

 

At 33% crit chance that is a probability of getting the effect after casting Innervate = .33+.33+.33+.33 = 1.32; That's over 100% chance of getting the effect.

it is still a 67% probability that you wont get the effect on any given tick, to be garantied to get it, the crit chance has to be 100% crit chance.

each tick is rolled against the crith chance seperatly, not combined.

 

You, can get a free (no health cost of Consumption) if you are a healer and spend 2 points. Your chance of getting that Force Surge for each 9s cast of Innervate is 132% if you have a crit chance of 33%.

still only a 33% chance to get the effect.

You realize that at a 1 force per second regeneration rate, it would take 10 minutes to regenerate from zero force to full? You also realize that sorcerors do not have a 1-2 minute cooldown ability that essentially puts them back at full resource level, like all of the other classes do?

Are you seriously going to sit there and try and claim operatives have a better resource system.

That's *********** absurd.

Just do the math. Your perception of the system is flawed. The make is solid.

Yes, we get an ability that buffs our energy by 50 points. That's 2 casts of Kolto Injection.

On a 2 minute cooldown.

Sorcerers get consumption which grants them 48 force. That allows them to cast one Dark Infusion.

They can then again use that ability 9 seconds later at no cost for another 48 energy to cast dark infusion.

They can do that again and again while our ability is on cooldown.

50 Energy = 2 Kolto Injections.

I am seriously getting sick of people like you. Posting vague comments like "it's the energy regen" then turning tail and running.

You know damn well this is ****ed.

Sorceres have a better base resource pool

They have a better regen system.

They have better abilities to increase Force while in combat.

They can get those superior tools with very few tools in their skill tree and they buff already strong abilities.

Operatives have to spend 4 talent points to boost Diagnostic Scan to a crappy heal that boosts energy. And that boost is still significantly inferior to sorcerers ability.

I think you know this. I just can't figure out what is wrong with you. Why you can't register "sorcerers system is at least 5 times better than the operatives system."

it is still a 67% probability that you wont get the effect on any given tick, to be garantied to get it, the crit chance has to be 100% crit chance.

 

each tick is rolled against the crith chance seperatly, not combined.

 

 

 

 

still only a 33% chance to get the effect.

actually no.

the chance of getting it is (1-chance)*x*100%, where x is how many times the proccess is repeated.

so for 4 ticks, and a 33% chance, your chance of getting at least one crit is ~80%.

if you use your proc on it the chance goes as high as ~95%

secondly, i do believe that sorc's regen and force pool is actually kinda balanced. What is throwing the whole balance out of whack is the broken talent in the healing tree that allows you to use consumption without the -force regen debuff /7.5sec.

without this talent, the actual net gain would be 28force/10sec. given the regen is 8/sec this is by itself a 35% boost to regen (in comparison the energy regen boost is 20%, but doesn't requires 1gcd/10sec BUT also requires 1 TA which is 1 less free heal, so imo ~balanced)

the thing, is that the free consumption proc doesn't actually gives just that. the way it works it allows a sorc who wants to regen force to increase his force regeneration from 8/sec to 16.5sec if he so chooses, and this in turn gives him unlimeted regeneration AND quite a huge pool.

take your base healing spell p.e.:

costs 50force with talents. your base regeneration is 8/sec and can be boosted to 10.8/sec if you use consumption without the proc.

that means that you regen the force to cast your main heal in 4.6sec

operative's main healing spell costs 25energy. their natural regen is 5/sec WHEN IN TOP TIER and can be boosted to 6/sec through talents.

so they regen the energy for 1 big heal, when they are in their best regeneration in 4.1sec

to summarize:

sorcs who DON'T use the free consumption proc have a 600-650 pool and they need 4.6sec of regen for 1 heal

operatives who are in the top tier of regen have a 40 pool and they need 4.1sec of regen for 1 heal

as you can see, it is already broken. But when you start using free consumption every 7.5sec, without an ICD, and you can follow it with another consumption every 10sec, and you boost your regen to 16.5/sec (meaning 3secs of regen to cast 1 heal) then you understand why things look so broken.

IMO:

solution 1 (sorc nerf): the free consumption proc needs an ICD of ~30sec. The bonus 25% crit chance to one really good hps spell that also offers most of it's healing frontloaded is a bonus by itself.

solution 2 (operative buff): remove the ICD from the chance to get a free TA on kolto probe ticks and increase it's chance to something closer to 50%. This could mean that if you keep 2-3targets hotted, then you have a good chance of chain proccing TAs that allow free spells in order to have much higher efficient HPE.

solution 3 (operative buff and my favorite since it also fixes one uselss skill): Buff the "energy regeneration" heal aka the worthless diagnostic scan to give 8energy/crit instead of 2. this means that using a 3sec channel you gain close to 16energy which is 64% of the cost of our main heal at the cost of 3secs of close to 0 healing. this will put it on par with the regeneration boost that sorcs get from double consumption use (also a 3sec of no healing) at the same cost (actually sorcs get 152% of the cost of their main heal from double consumption, but they also spent ~12%health and can do so 1/10sec while operatives have no cd, which again seem like ~balanced to me)

while i can understand the need for in depth analysis for proper balance, im not going to type out a booklet here.

from a players perspective on my scoundrel i sort of enjoyed playing as dps, but not healing very much.

the bottom line to me healing was you had a very limited selection of good usable heals, and instead of having to be smart or efficient with those heals i had to be more concerned with watching for the upper hand buff so i could use the 1 free heal.

as a dps watching for a buff to appear to maximize damage can be fun. it adds something to the rotation beyond 1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3.

as a healer trying to save lives it kind of sucks.

having about 3 heals and your only 'emergency' heal being tied to getting this buff also kind of sucks.

the scoundrel also seems to lack some basic moves like an aoe knock back and things like that, i guess because he has stealth, but in my opinion its not good as a healer in most situations.

No; You do not know what you are talking about.

Yes if Innervate crits. Either the initial heal or one of the three hot ticks.

At 33% crit chance that is a probability of getting the effect after casting Innervate = .33+.33+.33+.33 = 1.32; That's over 100% chance of getting the effect.

 

Operative healers get their "balanced" ability.

It's in the tier three Lethality tree. +10 Energy on Stim Boost cast.

Stim Boost requires Tactical Advantage. TA is granted from a 30% chance tick from Kolto Probe (if we spend 3 talent points in it), or from Kolto Injection (if we spend 2 talent points).

 

SO:

To get +10 energy from Stim Boost which costs TA and to Maximize TA acquisition which is essential for an operative. We have to spend.

3 + 2 + 11 = 16 Talent Points. We can get that + 10 energy every 20 seconds.

 

You, can get a free (no health cost of Consumption) if you are a healer and spend 2 points. Your chance of getting that Force Surge for each 9s cast of Innervate is 132% if you have a crit chance of 33%.

 

Why do you try and defend bioware's obvious forced dis-balance of the game in the favor of their most played class.

 

Kolto Injection (KI) costs 25 energy.

 

At 5 Energy regen per sec it takes 5 seconds to accumulate the energy to cast KI.

At 4 Energy regen per sec it takes 6.25 seconds to accumulate the energy to cast KI.

At 3 Energy regen per sec it takes 8.33 seconds to accumulate the energy to cast KI.

At 2.5 Energy regen per sec it takes 10 seconds to accumulate the energy to cast KI.

At 2 Energy regen per sec it takes 12.5 seconds to accumulate the energy to cast KI.

 

 

Dark Infusion (DI) costs 55 force. (Before the talents to decrease it's cost).

 

At 8 Force regen per sec it takes 6.875 seconds to accumulate the force to cast DI.

At 8 Force regen per sec it takes 6.875 seconds to accumulate the force to cast DI.

At 8 Force regen per sec it takes 6.875 seconds to accumulate the force to cast DI.

At 8 Force regen per sec it takes 6.875 seconds to accumulate the force to cast DI.

At 8 Force regen per sec it takes 6.875 seconds to accumulate the force to cast DI.

You apparently don't know how to calculate probability because unless something has a 100% chance to occur, no amount of additional trials will make it over 100%. A 33% chance of something happening at least once in 4 trials has a 79.8% chance of occurring.

Why are you even talking about the cost of talent points? It's understood that you will have those talents in a healing build because there are no alternatives to improve healing. They are the only options available so the cost is irrelevant. What, you're going to take reduced energy cost to Corrosive Dart instead? Or increased movement speed during Evasion? That may be fine in PvP, but you're talking about PvE efficiency here.

The cost of a single TA every 45 seconds to get 45 energy over that time is nothing. It's a given that you will keep Stim Boost active as much as possible. Which means, that you get 6/4/3 energy regen instead of 5/3/2, which is a 20% bonus at the optimal range, and as much as a 50% bonus when you're low.

That means that now you regen the energy you spent on KI in 4.167 seconds at optimal or 8.333 at worst, not to discount the fact that you get a TA proc which can then be used on SP. So that's two heals every 8.333 at your worst regen rate. Considering KI takes 2 seconds to cast, then you need 1.5 seconds for KP, that means you would only have to wait 0.667 seconds in between KI/SP combos in order to remain energy neutral, and that's on your main heals, from what I understand. If you get a TA proc from a KP tick to use on another SP, well now you're energy positive.

Sorcerer's "free" heal has a cooldown and then they need to use a GCD on a purely regen ability that provides no healing to recoup the cost plus a little extra.

My point in all of this? The mechanics are completely different. Stop trying to compare them on an individual basis. Instead compare how well a Sorcerer can keep a group healed to how well an Operative can do the same. Personally, I don't like the regen reduction mechanics on the tech healers, because I think it makes playing them unnecessarily stressful.

You dont take regeneration rates into account, either.

 

Operatives, without stim boost, recover 5% of their resource pool per second. With stim boost, it's 6% per second.

 

Sorcerors only recover 1% or less of their resource pool per second.

The solution is obvious. Give Operatives a 500 point energy pool so that they only recover 1% or less of their resource pool per second.