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Please DO nerf HM Flashpoints or take them out of DvL events


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Why would anyone want to do them?

 

1- There is virtually nobody doing them. Queus are dead and no enticement to group up.

2- The few players that do them are NEW. Most do not understand the mechanics.

3- It is not a challenge but an impossible task. Why in the world one would want to go through strenuous research to find out what is the best strategy. Save those for OPs perhaps.

This is entertainment and NOT a thesis project. No other MMOs have the word HARD tight to an impossibility. If you want to have a higher level than hard...why not use the word "ELITE" perhaps?

4- Guilds dont do much of them. Yeah I tried myself... and most of them do OPS rather than HM flashpoints.

 

An objective should be hard...yet "obtainable". Most of the new players you are trying to sub won't be able to "know" these tricks of the trade or even won't have deep pockets to have higher gear.

 

It needs lots of re-development and incentives better for those who want to participate on them.

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I've got to ask, what is so appealing about the Legendary achievement in DvL that you must have the game altered so you can get it?

 

When the event was announced, I saw that particular achievement required leveling all 8 classes to 50. Something I've done more than once. And have no desire WHATSOEVER to do it again.

 

So I decided not to participate in obtaining that achievement.

 

Is this not an option for you?

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1. My queues for a dps in Red Eclipse popped in something like 20 minutes. Maybe you're on a dead server?

2. Usually, there's at least one player who has done them before who can explain the mechanics. If not, there's usually at least one player who can use google.

3. Which ones of these are supposed to be impossible? I one-shotted everything except Assault on Tython and Lost Island, I can understand some of them being hard if you get a bad group who just don't have the correct rotation or doesn't listen, but then you leave and requeue.

4. Can't say much for that, since I'm pretty much the only one in my guild who does group content.

 

I can support them needing better rewards, or separating hm fps into two different tiers, either in DvL, group finder or both. In no way, shape or form are Black Talon HM and Blood Hunt HM equally difficult. But seriously, they're not impossible. if I can do them, anyone can do them, at least with a little luck when it comes to the rest of the group.

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People don't do HM FPs... because they give awful rewards and were implemented terribly in 4.0. If they had separate divisions to give appropriate rewards splitting up blood hunt and foundry, while giving cosmetic items like pets, mounts, and unique gear shells, participation would be higher. Their is still a large surplus of older players doing HM FPs, however these are mostly achievement hunters, and new players are only doing them for the DVL event, not because they enjoy doing them. They barely gear for them, get carried, do them once, and never again, should we really change the game that much for people like that?
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I just sleepwalked through 2 HMs in quick succession, on my lvl 56 assassin, who I haven't played for ages. In first one we had first time tank as well, and it's not like I remembered much either. Not a single hiccup

 

HMs are very easy as long as you know your role and not afraid to ask for tactics. Unless you are scrub who got carried through entire game by healer companion of course. And when DPS can get group in under 10 minutes - you know a lot of people are running them.

 

The only one I consistently fail at is Battle of Rishi. My reaction times and lag are killing me on last boss bombardments.

Edited by Frenesi
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Only complaint I ever had about flashpoints is the same complaint I have about operations. Too many trashmobs to kill from boss to boss. Nothing really needs to be changed but I do feel they could cut down on the clutter of things that have be killed in between each boss fight. Nothing more than extra annoying time sinks...
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I just sleepwalked through 2 HMs in quick succession, on my lvl 56 assassin, who I haven't played for ages. In first one we had first time tank as well, and it's not like I remembered much either. Not a single hiccup

 

HMs are very easy as long as you know your role and not afraid to ask for tactics. Unless you are scrub who got carried through entire game by healer companion of course. And when DPS can get group in under 10 minutes - you know a lot of people are running them.

 

The only one I consistently fail at is Battle of Rishi. My reaction times and lag are killing me on last boss bombardments.

 

To be fair, theirs a HUGE disparity between many hard mode flashpoints, simply saying one or two without any clarification on which and if you did bonus or not is needed to make a better statement to decide on their difficulty.

 

Not to mention the gear gap either. Due to how easy KP/EV is now a days, it is extremely easy to over gear for flashpoints making them easier. Part of me sure as hell thinks some are over tuned while others under, but due the entire gearing paragram messed up by EV/KP, some may appear far easier than they should be which may warrant a buff.

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HMs are easily done in green mods from lvl56 supplies vendor on fleet, so gear only matters if you want to show off and steal aggro from tank. Always sign of a job well done :p

 

On a serious note, the only ones that can be difficult are BH and BoR. LS can get irritating, but isn't hard by any margin. Forged alliances require some thought put into them, but aren't that challenging either. That's 2-6 FPs in rotation of I'm-too-lazy-to-count-how-many. And there's quite a nubmer of peopl doing them just for fun, who know all ins and outs and will explain things about bosses new guy might not know, as long as he asks

 

The only way to fail at HM legendary achievements is to fail at playing one's selected class and role... but that's problem with player, not with content. I suggest all legendary hunters to either git gud or crawl back into solo baby-mode.

Edited by Frenesi
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HMs are easily done in green mods from lvl56 supplies vendor on fleet, so gear only matters if you want to show off and steal aggro from tank. Always sign of a job well done :p

 

On a serious note, the only ones that can be difficult are BH and BoR. LS can get irritating, but isn't hard by any margin. Forged alliances require some thought put into them, but aren't that challenging either. That's 2-6 FPs in rotation of I'm-too-lazy-to-count-how-many. And there's quite a nubmer of peopl doing them just for fun, who know all ins and outs and will explain things about bosses new guy might not know, as long as he asks

 

The only way to fail at HM legendary achievements is to fail at playing one's selected class and role... but that's problem with player, not with content. I suggest all legendary hunters to either git gud or crawl back into solo baby-mode.

 

To be fair... I think curse of knowledge is present here. Lost Island is considered pretty hard, the only reason why I think it doesn't have a bad rap is because it's been around for four years, people finally know by now to stand under the savrip boss. Are the Forged alliance arc flashpoints easy? I don't believe so. Hard perhaps? Maybe not, but they defiantly require learning and some decent knowledge of class and some retries when doing them.

 

I have had to go through several replacements for Korriban Incursion, oddly enough never failed it, but had to call in people for favors? Yep. Assault On Tython is the one I oddly enough fail literally just as much as blood hunt, yet... uh... Athiss... holds the most of my failed HM flashpoints. What I'm trying to say is that, I don't believe they should nerf the hard mode flashpoints, but I do believe some people exaggerate on how easy they are for the average player due to their experience over the years.

 

EDIT- Not to mention this is coming from someone who knows all the ins and outs of almost all hard mode flashpoints, with a set planned route for doing bonus on everything besides faction flashpoints, as their isn't a achievement for these on bonus.

Edited by peter_plankskull
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Why would anyone want to do them?

 

1- There is virtually nobody doing them. Queus are dead and no enticement to group up.

2- The few players that do them are NEW. Most do not understand the mechanics.

3- It is not a challenge but an impossible task. Why in the world one would want to go through strenuous research to find out what is the best strategy. Save those for OPs perhaps.

This is entertainment and NOT a thesis project. No other MMOs have the word HARD tight to an impossibility. If you want to have a higher level than hard...why not use the word "ELITE" perhaps?

4- Guilds dont do much of them. Yeah I tried myself... and most of them do OPS rather than HM flashpoints.

 

An objective should be hard...yet "obtainable". Most of the new players you are trying to sub won't be able to "know" these tricks of the trade or even won't have deep pockets to have higher gear.

 

It needs lots of re-development and incentives better for those who want to participate on them.

 

I already have the achievement, i haven't done any NiM or HM ops on my L vs. D characters they did the entire Legendary tier with full 190/208 gear this event is not hard at all. So all of your points can easily be debunked.

 

At point 1:

Many are doing them or have done them ive already finished the event early Sept. would have been done earlier but was waiting for that DoM HM fix. Also many people a premaking groups then queing them so if you have an allies chat premake a group then group que.

 

At 2:

Then explain to them the mechanics, its not that hard to explain the mechanics to them. And if thats the problem make a premade group with people who understand the mechanics or will listen to the mechanics explanation.

 

At 3: Its not impossible ive seen 70 different people on the Ebon Hawk alone with legendary tier completed like me, this event is not meant for everyone. They made it easy so you can get the companions but to get legendary tier you must be quick on your feet, understand mechanics and be a fine killing machine. If you cant finish it oh well, get better.

 

At 4: Find others online to do them HM FP's are not hard or challenging unless there is a bug or if there was a stealth mechanic change, ik when i redid BH and DoM there were a few changes from 3.0 to them which threw me off guard until i looked over the patch notes for the changes.

 

You don't need deep pockets, you can do all of these HM FP's in full 208 gear <_< because of bolster its all about knowing your class and spec you play Heck ive had a level 57 vanguard tank do Blood Hunt Hard mode with me and we didn't wipe, because everyone knew how to play their class.

 

So some suggestions for success:

1: premake your groups 1 healer, 1 tank, 2 dps.

2: Make sure you and your group mates know their class, many times failure is from unknowing how your class rotation works or not understanding the mechanics. Also you could be the problem for the wipes, your DPS output could be too low for a successful run because you are playing your spec wrong. Same with healing.

3: Read or watch a successful HM run on the harder HM's note what they did and try to do so.

 

Some of these HM's can be done solo, ive done solo HM runs in 4.0 like black talon thats a good one to solo on hard mode. This really isnt that hard to do, take everything into account and succeed or fail its up to you, this event is not impossible, just get better at your class.

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If I got to remove something from DVL, it would be the requirement to run any of KOTFE. The HM FP's actually have someish fun potential. For some reason, with 4.X, HM FP's and SM Ops became something I don't enjoy anymore, and its not burnout, I was not burned out on them pre 4.x, and was pugging them daily.

 

Something about the way 4.x is arranged, has driven away the people you actually want to be running this content with. Its like the executives lost the message somewhere.

 

The only semi-worthwhile content in 4.x is PVP.

Edited by ThrakhathSpawn
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Revisiting Fp was fun. BoR and BH are the only ones that really have some checks. The rest is positioning. Why not join a good helpful guild (yes there are some around) or ask for a group on fleet instead of just queuing and waiting forever? Sometimes all it takes is a little bit of initiative.
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Revisiting Fp was fun. BoR and BH are the only ones that really have some checks. The rest is positioning. Why not join a good helpful guild (yes there are some around) or ask for a group on fleet instead of just queuing and waiting forever? Sometimes all it takes is a little bit of initiative.

 

I tried and still trying other ways to get these done. Don't get me wrong they might be doable with the right combo of skills in a team of 4. However, added to the fact these are almost impossible to do (except for those who are super duper players..I'm not) dont forget the queue system is "dead" and nobody in their right mind wants to do them. Queus are empty. For whatever reasons they remain empty...not juicy bonus or good gear drops...whatever other reason?

 

Look at this way...datacrons are a pain in the neck to accomplish but doable. However, for this so called DvL they had a different way to collect them that is ridiculously "easier" than the regular way. Why did they do this if DvL is to reflect only "cretain" kind of elite players completing the last legendary level. Do you honestly call that a challenge?

 

Even after the DvL HM flashpoints will remain broken and needs to be fixed...just my own opinion.

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I tried and still trying other ways to get these done. Don't get me wrong they might be doable with the right combo of skills in a team of 4. However, added to the fact these are almost impossible to do (except for those who are super duper players..I'm not) dont forget the queue system is "dead" and nobody in their right mind wants to do them. Queus are empty. For whatever reasons they remain empty...not juicy bonus or good gear drops...whatever other reason?

 

I'm certainly not a "super duper player", I mostly just level and do lowbie/midbie pvp to keep up with my class story and had not touched a hm fp since the early days of RotHC when I started doing these for DvL and I STILL managed to beat both encounters. BoR seems to mostly be about not standing on aoes and not getting murdered by the adds -- I failed at the second task on my first attempt, but we had a operative dps who was able to steath rezz me, so we beat it. For Blood Hunt, you might want to consult a rotation guide (and possibly a gearing guide -- you're going to mess up your rotation at some point (believe me...), and it's useful to have something to carry you through those moments). Apart from the dps check at the first boss, the fp didn't feel that hard to me. ^^

 

As for finding groups, I don't know what to say. Apparently you're on harbinger, based on your posts on other topics. I always assumed Harbinger is just as lively as The Red Eclipse, and I had no problems getting pops at TRE -- even for BoR or BH.

Edited by Seireeni
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I am starting to get sick and tired of this. Every time BW tries to bring in something to get players to learn they all flock to forums shouting "nerf nerf NERF".

 

Back when I started playing, in 2.something there was Oricon. Due to the fact Oricon gave out (I think) 162 gear and the best gear given out by solo content before Oricon was 156 it was clearly designed to be done with 156 (not that I ever did, I always enjoyed fp's etc more than solo so didn't start oricon till I was mixed 162/168).

 

And even while overgeared I had to follow mechanics. The whole point of Oricon was learning things as needed for ops. The boss at the bottom of the map was tuned such that any player who wasn't overgeared MUST use stuns to beat it. The boss at the top of the map, if you weren't overgeared, could not be beaten without interrupts. The guy at the top of the tower required use of dcd's and correct use of interrupt (he had 3 channels, one did a tonne load more damage than the other 2 so that was the one you must interrupt).

 

And what did players do? join in 3 or 4 man groups to complete Oricon. I was the only person I ever saw running around by themselves, everyone else was joining together, and chat was full of "lfg oricon dailies."

 

 

Now with DvL players are expected to do HM fp's. Some of them require knowledge of your class (rishi, BH, LI spring to mind) and guess what?

option 1: learn

option 2: cry for nerf

 

Who would have guessed the players would choose option 2.

 

I'm fed up of this crap. I am the sort of player who struggles to do HM ops yet even I can do the HM fp's. Theres nothing too difficult about them as long as the tanks use dcd's, the dps do more than just treat the fight like a dummy parse and the healer doesn't just spam the same heal while standing still.

Edited by BobFredJohn
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I am starting to get sick and tired of this. Every time BW tries to bring in something to get players to learn they all flock to forums shouting "nerf nerf NERF".

 

 

I'm sick of people who complain that people always cry nerf.

 

If you actually took the time to read anything in this thread, there are at least a few of us who are more than capable of completing these HM Fps that do think they're overtuned, for varying reasons.

 

Some servers are lucky if they can even get the HM FP to pop at all. Some people only are able to access the game when the population is really limited.

 

Some people don't have the luxury of being able to take seasoned raiders and are forced to take what they can get. It doesn't matter how well you know your class, but if the few people you can find to join you aren't competent enough then failing will be beyond your control.

 

I would think its pretty obvious something is wrong when people started offering payment just to get through a few key HM Fps. It's hardly a matter of being carried most of the time, just having competent teammates.

 

The competency requirement for a select few HM FPS is well beyond that of the rest. There's no reason something with virtually no reward should be preventing so much of the playerbase from completing it.

 

(Sure, I'd like it if players were a lot more skilled, but that's not the majority of the playerbase).

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If you actually took the time to read anything in this thread, there are at least a few of us who are more than capable of completing these HM Fps that do think they're overtuned, for varying reasons.

 

Overtuned ?! You must be joking. I downed LI the first day 4.0 dropped with a group in full 192.

,
. How is that overtuned ? I mean, yes those guys are very well geared and yes they are very good players, but you can't tell me 4 average players are not at least as good as an exceptionnal player.
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They are not overtuned. You don't need raid gear to beat them. You need to know your class and play the mechanics. The game does nothing to encourage these 2 things so something like BH ends up looking like Mount Everest when it's, in fact, a hill in a very large, very flat valley. That's the problem and nerfing it (more, they already did once) is not the solution.
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Their is still a large surplus of older players doing HM FPs, however these are mostly achievement hunters

 

Yes, I myself am doing so, as I missed this when it was easily doable. I que as healer or tank since those roles give me insta pops and to a certain extent i can carry the noobs that i encouter in the fps. I do wish there would be a channel on TRE like redleader which would be full of people like me who can do HM fps with easy and want to cause of the achievments (also imp side).

 

These FPS are easy and require little to no effort or gear, if you cannot beat them the problem lies elsewhere, not in the game.

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Overtuned ?! You must be joking. I downed LI the first day 4.0 dropped with a group in full 192.
,
. How is that overtuned ? I mean, yes those guys are very well geared and yes they are very good players, but you can't tell me 4 average players are not at least as good as an exceptionnal player.

 

They are not overtuned. You don't need raid gear to beat them. You need to know your class and play the mechanics. The game does nothing to encourage these 2 things so something like BH ends up looking like Mount Everest when it's, in fact, a hill in a very large, very flat valley. That's the problem and nerfing it (more, they already did once) is not the solution.

 

#1 - Try pugging on Harby - Attempt Rishi, BH, LI several times with random groups at check your success rates. I did the majority of my DvL through pugs, even Rishi (and that one took a bit). I did BH with guildmates that raid because I didn't want endure any more than I had to.

#2 They are overtuned if they stand out drastically over the rest of the HMs. You can solo carry some of the worst players in a Czerka HM. Ain't gonna happen in BH HM. They are BOTH HM FPs, and most are a lot closer to Czerka than they are to BH in difficulty.

#3 You said it yourself, the game does nothing to emphasize the learning of a class and mechanics, and then something like BH HM suddenly expects them to be at that proficiency level out of the blue.

#4 A lot of the playerbase will struggle HARD in STORYMODE. It is sad, but that's the reality.

#5 The majority of people who actually can complete the most difficult HM FPs already have hard mode raid experience beyond kp/ev hm. Of course we can do them.

 

It kind of reminds me of how Nim only dropped 220s when 4.0 hit, why do nim when you get identical or better gear in an easier difficulty?

 

There is virtually nothing of real value that drops in an HM FP, so there's no justification that a select few should have a much higher skill gap than the majority.

 

Yes, I myself am doing so, as I missed this when it was easily doable. I que as healer or tank since those roles give me insta pops and to a certain extent i can carry the noobs that i encouter in the fps. I do wish there would be a channel on TRE like redleader which would be full of people like me who can do HM fps with easy and want to cause of the achievments (also imp side).

 

These FPS are easy and require little to no effort or gear, if you cannot beat them the problem lies elsewhere, not in the game.

 

If they were that "easy" than you would pug it without caring about the people you pug it with. Obviously you recognize that they aren't easy otherwise you wouldn't care who you took in pursuing said achievements. If the majority of the populace could play at an hm raid level or higher we would have seen new operations by now, not this focus on story to cater to the more "casual" player base.

Edited by SeCKSEgai
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If they were that "easy" than you would pug it without caring about the people you pug it with.

 

You seem to be saying "because some people cant complete the content, that means the content is too hard"

 

Which is not correct. It could be that the people who cant complete the content are not playing their class correctly (an op dps I met recently springs to mind, sitting in cover and spamming snipe and when I mentioned they are a melee class they respond "I will play how I like").

 

Well if players are going to ignore mechanics, play melee classes in range or ranged classes as melee then I don't think they have a leg to stand on when commenting about difficulty. I really couldn't care less if a melee sorc cannot complete BoR, or a ranged op cant complete BH, because they aren't supposed to.

 

Just because some people cant complete some missions doesn't necessarily mean the mission is the problem. But I suppose its easier for those people's ego to say "the mission is impossible" rather than "what am I doing wrong?".

 

Though I do agree with you on one thing. The balance between HM fp's and SM ops is buggered. SM ops drops better stuff yet SM KP and EV are easier than most HM fp's, TFB is rather simple and SnV hardly has any challenge any more. However I disagree on your solution, you want the hardest fp's nerfed, I want SM ops buffed. Things like the 4th boss in tfb, who for the first 50% of his health has no mechanics at all, and that's not an exaggeration it is a literal tank and spank. I think HM fp's are fine as they are and SM ops should have their mechanics put back in.

Edited by BobFredJohn
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You seem to be saying "because some people cant complete the content, that means the content is too hard"

 

Which is not correct. It could be that the people who cant complete the content are not playing their class correctly (an op dps I met recently springs to mind, sitting in cover and spamming sniper and when I mentioned they are a melee class they respond "I will play how I like").

 

We if players are going to ignore mechanics, play melee classes in range or ranged classes as melee then I don't think they have a leg to stand on when commenting about difficulty. I really couldn't care less if a melee sorc cannot complete BoR, or a ranged op cant complete BH, because they aren't supposed to.

 

Just because some people cant complete some missions doesn't necessarily mean the mission is the problem. But I suppose its easier for those people's ego to say "the mission is impossible" rather than "what am I doing wrong?".

 

Though I do agree with you on one thing. The balance between HM fp's and SM ops is buggered. SM ops drops better stuff yet SM KP and EV are easier than most HM fp's, TFB is rather simple and SnV hardly has any challenge any more. However I disagree on your solution, you want the hardest fp's nerfed, I want SM ops buffed. Things like the 4th boss in tfb, who for the first 50% of his health has no mechanics at all, and that's not an exaggeration it is a literal tank and spank. I think HM fp's are fine as they are and SM ops should have their mechanics put back in.

 

If only you worked at Bioware...

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I don't really have a guild, so I pug. I pretty much only heal. All tacticals are no problem with any combo of group. All HM fps are no problem except Rishi, DoM, Tython, Korr, BH. I have tried pugging these and the groups just aren't good enough. Maybe I'm part of the problem too. But my complaint is... why are all the other HM fps doable with pug groups but those five? They are my nemesis of HM flashpoints.

 

You can say I haven't found the right group, but I'm done looking for them. I don't have the time or will anymore to bother. After DvL I started cancelling out of those flashpoints when they popped but realized that's not fair to others, so now I stopped all HMs.

 

I don't know the answer but I don't understand why they can't be adjusted to be like the other HMs or placed in another group. :)

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I don't really have a guild, so I pug. I pretty much only heal. All tacticals are no problem with any combo of group. All HM fps are no problem except Rishi, DoM, Tython, Korr, BH. I have tried pugging these and the groups just aren't good enough. Maybe I'm part of the problem too. But my complaint is... why are all the other HM fps doable with pug groups but those five? They are my nemesis of HM flashpoints.

 

You can say I haven't found the right group, but I'm done looking for them. I don't have the time or will anymore to bother. After DvL I started cancelling out of those flashpoints when they popped but realized that's not fair to others, so now I stopped all HMs.

 

I don't know the answer but I don't understand why they can't be adjusted to be like the other HMs or placed in another group. :)

 

You just need to find a good tank, add them to friend and group up with them, that's it.

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Yes, I myself am doing so, as I missed this when it was easily doable. I que as healer or tank since those roles give me insta pops and to a certain extent i can carry the noobs that i encouter in the fps. I do wish there would be a channel on TRE like redleader which would be full of people like me who can do HM fps with easy and want to cause of the achievments (also imp side).

 

These FPS are easy and require little to no effort or gear, if you cannot beat them the problem lies elsewhere, not in the game.

 

I will give you that most HM FPs are relatively simple, but most take some skill, and the average player is going to need 208 gear at least to pass them. We can laugh and call them easy now, but lets be honest here, for the most part, I'm sure when we run these hm fps, were over geared as all hell and usually have a friend or two to help us out, been here for years, and ran most of these a billion times.

 

Let's put our shoes here in a new persons perspective, this is the only MMO he has played, only has 208 comm gear, and has never done these hm fps before. Can we really say the same statement now saying they require no effort and gear to do? Now does this warrant a nerf? No. These are challenging things to some people, I don't think we should talk down to them saying its easy as 1, 2, and 3. IMO, any flashpoints after vanilla should be in their own separate queue, and even a third for blood hunt, rishi, and lost island. They should not be giving the same rewards as something like hammer station, and they skill gap is considerably far harder when comparing the two. Does this mean however that they should be removed from the DVL event? No.

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