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Vengeance Juggernaut/ Vigilance Guardian PVE Guide (Updated to 5.7a)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Guardian / Juggernaut
Vengeance Juggernaut/ Vigilance Guardian PVE Guide (Updated to 5.7a)

RiChess's Avatar


RiChess
07.12.2018 , 02:26 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by TwoLekku View Post
Yeah. This x 10. It'd be one thing if Mr. Guide had done the calculus (and i mean that literally - diminishing returns are literally a curve to be plotted) to show that after hitting the 1860 alacrity threshold, the resulting crit was low enough to actually benefit from the crit relic.

And there exist specs who actually do better in the 1400-ish alacrity range (cough IO Merc cough) because of the effect on resource management and rotation precision. But in no case is someone running 1800 crit and getting more out of the crit relic than the two standard power/mastery relics. That math has already been done and there's no point in further debate unless someone has a shiny new equation to show off.

But since warriors don't have a time-based resource regen and aren't channeling, they tend to be poster children for the 1.3sec GCD gear setup...which means that second best is the 1.4 sec GCD setup and the worst place is literally where this gear appears to take us. Alacrity that isn't (a) increasing APM, (b) improving resource availability, or (c) permitting a superior rotation = wasted stat points better spent in crit. 1400 alacrity on a warrior is like a 2nd tank in EV. Both make me a little sad.

TLDR: back your gear choices up with hard math or delete your gear section. Better off leaving it blank than giving out crap advice.
What are your thoughts on low alac high crit for veng? I geared mine before reading any guides (I PvE and PvP so I figured high crit would be a better balance) and ended up with 990 alac and 2100 crit. I know I'm over DR on crit, but my DPS has been satisfactory, usually outparse my guildies in raids with 247ilvl. Would it be worth the credits to dump some crit augs to go for the 1.4s GCD?
70- Sniper 70- Mara
70- Merc 70- Juggy
70- Sin 70- PT
70- Op 70- Sorc

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
07.12.2018 , 03:17 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by RiChess View Post
What are your thoughts on low alac high crit for veng? I geared mine before reading any guides (I PvE and PvP so I figured high crit would be a better balance) and ended up with 990 alac and 2100 crit. I know I'm over DR on crit, but my DPS has been satisfactory, usually outparse my guildies in raids with 247ilvl. Would it be worth the credits to dump some crit augs to go for the 1.4s GCD?
I personally prefer the 1860 alacrity and dump the rest in crit build (assuming you've met the 110% accuracy thing). The shorter GCD means I get more abilities off or something because my damage did increase.

Do note: the 1860 number is only feasible in full 248. Below that you will fall below the threshold.

I'd have to go do some math to talk about crit asymptotes as I dont really know what it is offhand. Now if you wanted to talk about tanks and defense rating offhand lol...

Anyway, I think this guide was written before we knew about the alacrity roundoff, and thus the discrepancy in optimal gearing strategy.

Decidion's Avatar


Decidion
07.12.2018 , 09:22 PM | #13
Yeah lately I've been running a high alacrity build (1857+) and then using Devastating Vengeance & Serendipitous Assault relics and using crit adrenals. Works pretty good.

Akumakazama's Avatar


Akumakazama
12.04.2018 , 03:25 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Assassinarian View Post
This guide has been updated to 5.7a because I just felt like there should be a guide as Dulfy's Vengeance Juggernaut and Vigilance Guardian guide is only up to 4.0 which is extremely outdated.

Gearing (Naming is from 248 gear as an example of how the piece may be named regardless of rating):
Spoiler

Vengeance Rotation:
Spoiler

Vengeance Utility Build:
Spoiler

Vigilance Rotation
Spoiler

Vigilance Utilities
Spoiler

Credits:
Spoiler
So....I'm a little confused. Are you guys saying that both these rotations are viable? I was using this one
https://www.docdroid.net/DK28Hso/50v...guide.pdf.html and didn't think much had changed since 5.0 but I've looked around and saw this post and started to changed up my rotation to match but later down the thread someone posted the rotation I was using before and no one is saying anything in conflict. Much help would be appreciated

mrphstar's Avatar


mrphstar
12.04.2018 , 06:31 AM | #15
the guide you posted aswell as similar rotations posted earlier in this thread are outdated.

chliing scream isnt vaible anymore since its damage got nerfed. futhermore some of these rotations suggest to use shatter at 6th or 8th position, which doenst make much sense. you would delay your main dot for 10secs. it should always be at position 2.

just use the rotation posted by OP and you are fine.
(skip either saber throw or charge in the opener, since in PVE(and 99% of the time in pvp) you only need 3 rage/focus and only 1 gap closer/range skill at this point. otherwise you just delay you main rotation for one GCD)

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
12.04.2018 , 12:06 PM | #16
If you're new to the class just use rydarus's guide and ignore the freezing force bits, as its pointless since the nerf.

If you're not new, you shouldn't be reliant on the guide anyway, right?

Akumakazama's Avatar


Akumakazama
12.04.2018 , 12:51 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
If you're new to the class just use rydarus's guide and ignore the freezing force bits, as its pointless since the nerf.

If you're not new, you shouldn't be reliant on the guide anyway, right?
Well, you say this, but just because you can play a class, mobs die and you don't, doesn't mean you "know" your class well enough to teach others. I think that's how bad guides are made. Like I said the "outdated" rotation was working fine for me and of course I wasn't in any raids since Dread Palace on my Sorc so I saw how much had changed always looking to improve. I just don't understand why ***** has to get complicated to be "enjoyable".

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
12.04.2018 , 04:00 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Akumakazama View Post
Well, you say this, but just because you can play a class, mobs die and you don't, doesn't mean you "know" your class well enough to teach others. I think that's how bad guides are made. Like I said the "outdated" rotation was working fine for me and of course I wasn't in any raids since Dread Palace on my Sorc so I saw how much had changed always looking to improve. I just don't understand why ***** has to get complicated to be "enjoyable".
My point was: if you are new and just learning, you're not going to be hitting anywhere close to the top anyway. Further, I argue that if you are experienced enough on the class, you are probably better served by practicing and playing with your rotation yourself, rather than combing through often simplified/generalized guides intended for beginners. Which is honestly not complicated, provided you are familiar enough with the class (and again, thus the comment on beginners).

Nowhere did i say anything about writing guides.

Akumakazama's Avatar


Akumakazama
12.04.2018 , 05:00 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
My point was: if you are new and just learning, you're not going to be hitting anywhere close to the top anyway. Further, I argue that if you are experienced enough on the class, you are probably better served by practicing and playing with your rotation yourself, rather than combing through often simplified/generalized guides intended for beginners. Which is honestly not complicated, provided you are familiar enough with the class (and again, thus the comment on beginners).

Nowhere did i say anything about writing guides.
Sorry but old military lesson. What I was trying to say, like what they used to tell us. When you truly know or understand something, you can explain it or teach it to someone else, hence the comment about a guide. To me, the ones who write guides truly understand the class on a level I don't seem to be getting. I just figured you guys would rather a person know their own shortcomings and try to improve as they know how. Some guys can do exactly what you said from the beginning and learn that way. I like myself need help.
TLDR
If playing around and learning my class is the key, the rotation I had was OK (to me) but everyone is saying "Its outdated" and never but "that good for open world leveling for example.