Arenas won't be implement unless their is an economic gain that is greater than investing in other areas such as pve or other content. Basically, arena isn't popular enough to implement . Arena advocates are a minority that can be ignored. Even Blizzard is ignoring arena players. Blizzard action this last season speaks volumes to the situation of arenas in wow. Plus, arena participation in wow is so low that combine number of glads and duelist in this season is less than in total of glads for any one previous season. You think Blizzard is going to invest in a sinking ship with those awful participation numbers.

 

Now you think BW will invest in arenas with the lack of participation in wow, the creator of arenas? There is no significant economic gain by investing in arenas. Until that changes you can craw back to wow. While Blizzard may have arenas, you will be treated like a second citizen and ignored by Blizzard. The actions of Blizzard this last season is proof that Blizzard doesn't care about arenas any more. Arenas won't draw any new subscriptions, participation is getting worst each season, and with a dwindling over all subscription base the problem is magnified. Ghostgrawler himself has stated that arenas consume too much resources relative to the amount of players who participate in them.

 

Just face it the old glory days of arena are gone and won't be implemented in any mmorpg in the near future due to their failure. The same reason no one will implement another sand box mmorpg in the near future due to the failure of swg.

 

I'm not say no one will absolutely attempt to implement a sand box mmorpg or arenas, but it wont' come from a major company due to the inherent risk of deviating from what has been proven to work.

 

Finally, you can generate hard statistics about arena participaton using the gladiator numbers since those are based on a percentage of active teams. Thus, generating the total number of teams participating in particular bracket for any given battleground, which can be used to calculate the total number of teams for each bracket for all of active arena teams in wow using the glad numbers. There was a player who made a list of data about glads relative to previous seasons and statistics don't lie. The combine number of glads and duelist for this last season is less than the the number of glads in previous seasons. That is very bad for arena participation. The title of gladiator is only awarded to the top .5 percent of arena rank teams and duelist to the top .5-3 percent of rank players.

 

Assuming each team has a unique player and no redundant player, some one who plays 5v5 and 3v3, then you can calculate the total number of players who are participating in arena relative to the total population of wow. You can use this to figure out arena participation for each seasons:

 

http://www.arenajunkies.com/tools/ti...tor/?season=11

 

You can't argue with those statistics. Arena is very unpopular in wow at moment. You only need to compare season 3 with season 11. If arena were so wanted, then why is it that arena participation is so low in wow? If arena participation is low, then investing resources into developing or continuing developing arena is a waste of funds. Blizzard isn't investing into arenas any more and is barely keeping any maintenance on them.

 

That's probably the reason Blizzard isn't investing in arena and is phasing arenas out due to their low participation to resources consumed ratio. If arenas failed, then it's very unlikely any future mmorpg will implement them due their perceived failure. There is no statistic you arena advocates can claim that arena is profitable or has enough participation to warrant developing arenas. There are no statistic you arena advocates can claim that provide proof that there is a large enough population that supports arenas at moment. Thus, the low participation of arena in wow justify not developing arenas, which in turn is not profitable due their low participation.

 

 

Number of Gladiators by Season

Data from AJ cutoff tool (no S1,S2)

 

3v3

-------SEASON------3--4---5---6--7---8--9--10

RECKONING-----|148|81|34|37|36|45|43|13|

CYCLONE---------|146|78|31|36|35|45|47|14|

RUIN----------------|163|89|34|39|38|55|47|19|

VINDICATION-----|145|80|38|41|40|55|43|18|

BLOODLUST-----|159|92|40|49|52|68|57|25|

VENGEANCE-----|126|62|30|35|32|43|33|13|

RAMPAGE---------|149|79|29|35|33|43|34|14|

SHADOWBURN-|134|70|32|37|36|49|36|15|

STORMSTRIKE--|135|66|32|37|35|42|33|14|

NIGHTFALL-------|107|66|29|33|33|48|33|14|

WHIRLWIND-----|-87|53|22|27|27|36|41|11|

EMBERSTORM--|-38|30|16|21|20|28|19|10|

RETALIATION----|-45|32|18|19|28|29|20|10|

-------SEASON------3--4---5---6--7---8--9--10

 

Season 3 RUIN had 32,792 active teams

Season 3 total had 318,172 active teams

Season 10 total had 39,361 active teams

 

 

Copy and pasted a post on the wow forums as you can see participation is very low. Stats for season 11 are a lot worst. Almost all the glads numbers are single digits and for 5v5 there were not enough active teams for their to be any glads in that bracket. Basically, arena is finished in wow.

 

I don't see no reason for justifying development of an arena system with those statistics. So what if a few players quit over no arenas. Their numbers don't justify developing arenas.

Why would u oppose the only fun competitive aspect of MMORPG's? your argument is flawed.

Why would u oppose the only fun competitive aspect of MMORPG's? your argument is flawed.

 

Your argument is even more flawed.

 

There a a lot more people find Arena not fun than those find it fun, which is the main reason why Arena is not getting any more popular.

The only reason it's not financially prudent is because all the MMOs are doing it wrong. They aren't embracing cyber sports and the niche there is and the money people are willing to spend for competative video games.

 

Also, before any one says something stupid like there's no money in competative video games I'm going to simply point you to Starcraft 2, or the MOBA scene right now.

 

 

There is not one MMO that has embraced video games wholely as a spectator sport. Once one does, if the game is well made I promise you they'll make oodles of cash.

 

I'm not even talking about only arenas (although that is certainly an avenue I'd explore if I was a developer) as a spectator sport. Huttball could EASILY have ladders, and teams, and spectator UIs and tournaments with real yields.

 

Rated battle grounds would be another way they could go. All of these would be great ways an MMO could break into the competative gaming scene but they aren't doing it, because they're short sighted.

 

Mark my words, one day some developers will wise up and hit bank. It would be really cool if that was this game.

I think segregating PvP and PvE too much is pointless, you raid for the best gear why? To be able to beat other players better, so stats only applicable to PvP is silly. Yes you'd still have a PvP and raiding set since fighting a monster with millions of HP is different from fighting other players, maybe for raiding you need more endurance but more haste for PvP while keeping the primary damage stat high for both?

Arena isn't ever going to come to TOR you say? Well thank the *********** Flying Spaghetti Monster for that! Worst PvP decision they ever made next to flying mounts. The moment you put tiny groups of people into a room together, PvP balance went completely out the window and every aspect of the game was affected by the actions of what happened in those boxes. It should have always been about large group v large group with over-arching goals and objectives.

I have just have one thing to say, would you continue playing pve if they never came up with new content? look at arenas... not one new "arena" the balance is the worst its ever been, so how can you say People don't want to play it when Blizzard is the one who ruined it, they have put much more effort into BGs and rbgs so thats where many of the arena players went! its funny how you try and sound intelligent and take ur time righting a good size post about arena, when most people that want "arena" just want a fair even matched game with a couple of there friends against others that want that, They could at least put Rated War Zones, Let you Q with a full group, premades! etc...

arena was the only reason i played wow

I understand that there are serious balance issues with arenas, but keep in mind that some classes and specific specs were made for either PvP or PvE. You wouldn't take a frost mage or a rogue to a raid so why take a warrior to an arena? Though some classes like paladins excel in both. Edited December 29, 2011 by Agemnon

I understand that there are serious balance issues with arenas, but keep in mind that some classes and specific specs were made for either PvP or PvE. You wouldn't take a frost mage or a rogue to a raid so why take a warrior to an arena? Though some classes like paladins excel in both.

 

lol what is this i dont even. . .

lol what is this i dont even. . .

 

I have a friend who has personally spoken with a WoW dev and he laughed at people who whine about PvP class imbalances because they need to figure out that some specs and even entire classes were either meant for PvP or PvE. Though blood DKs and paladins are great at both which is actually true imbalance.

you have no idea what you're talking about agemnon....ZIP. Edited December 29, 2011 by AtomicDP

you have no idea what you're talking about agemnon....ZIP.

 

I actually do, why are some classes overrepresented in PvP wins?

Arena in TBC was so good. Such a great pvp community and movies Arenajunkies + Warcraftmovies in TBC = GOLD

Your argument is even more flawed.

 

There a a lot more people find Arena not fun than those find it fun, which is the main reason why Arena is not getting any more popular.

 

Arenas RUINED WoW PvP. Vanilla WoW battlegrounds were the best. Then Arena Flavor of the month builds happened. Arena is terrible, and I pray we never see it.

I honestly think that using WoW as an example to support how Arenas aren't viable is COMPLETELY ridiculous.

 

Consider its not Arenas that are flawed but the way that particular game in question (WoW) executed them.

 

Compare Arena participation to Guild vs Guild participation in Guild Wars and the contrast is pretty obvious.

 

All that the OP has effectively proven is how ****** Arenas were in WoW, not that the idea of Arenas in general is ******. LOGIC FTW.

 

So let me set it out for you in ABC, 123 format.

 

If A then B, if not A then not B.

A = WoW Arenas work A = If Wow Arenas don't work

B = Arenas are great B = Arenas aren't great

 

I hate the fact that WoW is a shining example of "PvP" in most persons minds. It obviously lacked consistency as proven by OP's stats.

Sigh this thread again....

 

The reasoning why arenas in WoW didn't work out is simple.

 

1: Blizzard sucks *** at balancing. Seriously a monkey with mental retardation could have done a better job. The fact that BW have started on the right track for PVP and PVe balance (Separating the two) suggests they might be better then this.

 

2: 2v2 and 3v3 could never be balanced. Adding these game modes was a big mistake. Every game has a sweet spot in regards to person skill/teamwork. Add too many players and you get a zerg v zerg skilless action (Basically anything more then 6-8 players in most games). Too few and class rock paper scissors comes into play (This varies from as low as 1 to 5 in most games). In team class based games, the sweet spot is generally between 4-6.

 

3: Blizzard never really did anything with it past their initial push. To foster a esport, you need a strong indepth gameplay, tournies, and a good spectator experience. Aside from the first one (combat in WoW and their spell tree system is nice), Blizzard failed hard. Their half assed MLG support and lack of real spectator functions made the arena a failure as a esport.

 

4: Blizzard stopped supporting it: In a game where gear meant everything, blizzard pussied out and tried to stop arena by removing most of the appeal of its rewards.

 

And why could arena (Or some kind of 5v5 type of PVP?) work in SWTOR?

 

1: Arena doesn't cause imbalance. All it does is high light it. In WZ and WPVP, the huge mixture of randomness means balance has very little to do with who wins or loses. You have under leveled under skilled, under geared players mixed in with the best of the best. It's the equivalent of trying to determine the best football formations from a playground game. It's such a cluster**** that nothing really matters.

 

However in a Arena, with its matchmaking and high skill dependence, class balance plays a huge part. Which is where the misconception comes from that arena ruins balance. All it does is give hard proof that X is OP and Y is UP. not to mention casuals don't like seeing in pure numbers how much they suck.

 

2: Things are looking good on BW's part. Lets not beat around the bush. The 30% PVP only healing nerf was a huge step forwards in MMO balance. Even if you don't agree with it, you have to agree that BW has basically surpassed a stumbling block of understanding that most MMO's never reach: PVE and PVP needs to be done separately. Might seem simple but most companies lack basic common sense.

 

3: Esports is big money. Millions of people watch esports. Millions of people who might never want to play a MMO will generate advertising avenue (+ additional subs). Throw in possibility of deals with gaming companies (MLG SWTOR themed keyboards anyone?). Heck this is asia we're talking about. The only thing Asians love more then MMO's, is Esports.

 

4: You maintain the hardcore PVP playerbase that has been crying out for a new game. Hardcore PVE players are mostly satisfied with WoW to some extent (Worst case: They can stop leveling at 60 and do all the vannila stuff). However PVP and MMO's never really seem to go well together.

 

Would arena be easy. No. But name me one good thing that's easy? Do you really think it was easy adding that much voice acting into the game? Yet I'm sure everyone leveling would thank BW for taking that effort. The question isn't should BW make arena, it's more Are they a big and awesome enough company to do this? That answer will come up over the coming months.

Swtor needs that competetive aspect of pvp or they will prob lose 10-20% subs since many arena players came from wow to swtor to get skillcapped at another game

If WoW pvp is all you know then you've been stuck in the allegorical cave for 6 years.

 

I agree with Bainshie. Thank you.

Edited December 29, 2011 by FtDParadox

Sigh this thread again....

 

The reasoning why arenas in WoW didn't work out is simple.

 

1: Blizzard sucks *** at balancing. Seriously a monkey with mental retardation could have done a better job. The fact that BW have started on the right track for PVP and PVe balance (Separating the two) suggests they might be better then this.

 

2: 2v2 and 3v3 could never be balanced. Adding these game modes was a big mistake. Every game has a sweet spot in regards to person skill/teamwork. Add too many players and you get a zerg v zerg skilless action (Basically anything more then 6-8 players in most games). Too few and class rock paper scissors comes into play (This varies from as low as 1 to 5 in most games). In team class based games, the sweet spot is generally between 4-6.

 

3: Blizzard never really did anything with it past their initial push. To foster a esport, you need a strong indepth gameplay, tournies, and a good spectator experience. Aside from the first one (combat in WoW and their spell tree system is nice), Blizzard failed hard. Their half assed MLG support and lack of real spectator functions made the arena a failure as a esport.

 

4: Blizzard stopped supporting it: In a game where gear meant everything, blizzard pussied out and tried to stop arena by removing most of the appeal of its rewards.

 

And why could arena (Or some kind of 5v5 type of PVP?) work in SWTOR?

 

1: Arena doesn't cause imbalance. All it does is high light it. In WZ and WPVP, the huge mixture of randomness means balance has very little to do with who wins or loses. You have under leveled under skilled, under geared players mixed in with the best of the best. It's the equivalent of trying to determine the best football formations from a playground game. It's such a cluster**** that nothing really matters.

 

However in a Arena, with its matchmaking and high skill dependence, class balance plays a huge part. Which is where the misconception comes from that arena ruins balance. All it does is give hard proof that X is OP and Y is UP. not to mention casuals don't like seeing in pure numbers how much they suck.

 

2: Things are looking good on BW's part. Lets not beat around the bush. The 30% PVP only healing nerf was a huge step forwards in MMO balance. Even if you don't agree with it, you have to agree that BW has basically surpassed a stumbling block of understanding that most MMO's never reach: PVE and PVP needs to be done separately. Might seem simple but most companies lack basic common sense.

 

3: Esports is big money. Millions of people watch esports. Millions of people who might never want to play a MMO will generate advertising avenue (+ additional subs). Throw in possibility of deals with gaming companies (MLG SWTOR themed keyboards anyone?). Heck this is asia we're talking about. The only thing Asians love more then MMO's, is Esports.

 

4: You maintain the hardcore PVP playerbase that has been crying out for a new game. Hardcore PVE players are mostly satisfied with WoW to some extent (Worst case: They can stop leveling at 60 and do all the vannila stuff). However PVP and MMO's never really seem to go well together.

 

Would arena be easy. No. But name me one good thing that's easy? Do you really think it was easy adding that much voice acting into the game? Yet I'm sure everyone leveling would thank BW for taking that effort. The question isn't should BW make arena, it's more Are they a big and awesome enough company to do this? That answer will come up over the coming months.

 

Arena became the battle of the epeen. And made it so that if you played normal pvp you got terrible gear. No, Arena should stay dead. I'm not a fan of flavor of the month and epeen contests just so people can faceroll others who don't play arena.

 

If you MUST have arena, then that player should be forbidden from ever doing normal pvp again. Kind of a penalty to them.

Arena became the battle of the epeen. And made it so that if you played normal pvp you got terrible gear. No, Arena should stay dead. I'm not a fan of flavor of the month and epeen contests just so people can faceroll others who don't play arena.

 

If you MUST have arena, then that player should be forbidden from ever doing normal pvp again. Kind of a penalty to them.

 

As someone who did both arena and BG during the TBC (did 2v2 as the most un FOTM you could get (Destruction warlock + Shadow Priest. Was a terrible combo in the healer dominated 2v2 back then, no idea about now)) arena took a million times more skill then bg's. Actually....

 

 

Raids became the battle of the epeen. And made it so that if you played normal dungeons you got terrible gear. No, Raids should stay dead. I'm not a fan of flavor of the month and epeen contests just so people can faceroll others who don't Raid.

 

Fixed your post for you. No thanks needed.

Whats wrong with arenas to the game? If you dont like it ,dont play it. Easy. But the hardcore pvpler need that aspct of the game since we want an option to compare with good players and get better.

@OP and the rest of you crowd of whatever you call yourself's..,

 

E-sport PvP is fun, and alot of PvPer's grasp it like a fine lady that smells good.

 

To argue that is to say Arena isn't still successful, and to say League of Legends isn't successful.

 

Make no mistake, Bioware knows that there is a crowd of PvP mini maxers out there, the high grade elitist "A-holes" you all love to hate.

 

And years to come I would expect something in a form of a Arena in SWTOR.

 

Hell Huttball is just a example of the idea's they are bringing to the table, more stuff is coming make no mistake.

 

So stop with this number crunching theory BS OP, your wrong and I suppose I am as well, nobody knows what Bioware wants to do.

 

The chances are greater that something will come, than not come.

 

Why?

 

This sign --> $$$$$$ <--.

 

More subs = more $, more pvp options = more subs = more $.

 

I can do this all nite.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Caeliux

Your argument is even more flawed.

 

There a a lot more people find Arena not fun than those find it fun, which is the main reason why Arena is not getting any more popular.

 

There are alot more people that find MMORPGs not fun than those that find it fun, therefore it should not exist...

 

Also you realize that speed and accelleration is two diffrent things right? Even if acceptance is low, growth might be huge and vise versa,

As someone who did both arena and BG during the TBC (did 2v2 as the most un FOTM you could get (Destruction warlock + Shadow Priest. Was a terrible combo in the healer dominated 2v2 back then, no idea about now)) arena took a million times more skill then bg's. Actually....

 

 

 

 

Fixed your post for you. No thanks needed.

 

Whatever. If we have arena, then nobody who plays arena (because they do it just to get the great gear to stomp non-arena players) can play BG with that gear. I don't want another tier of PvP gear for something that is so blatantly game ruining as arena.

 

And yeah, you played TBC pvp. Which was a pale specter of the vanilla pvp. The ranks were the way to go.